[ogsa-wg] [ogsa-hpcp-wg] [OGSA-BES-WG] HPC profile questionaire draft

Sun Nov 19 10:08:00 CST 2006

Hi Marty,

I believe we would ask all 12 interop participating parties to
answer these simple questions by end of next week.

Does it sound reasonable to you?
----
Hiro Kishimoto

Marty Humphrey wrote:
> Andrew,
> 
> Oh, I believe that the motivation behind this survey is GREAT! I'm just not
> sure who might answer this survey and when they might do it.  
> 
> -- Marty
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Andrew Grimshaw [mailto:grimshaw at cs.virginia.edu] 
> Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2006 10:27 AM
> To: 'Marty Humphrey'; ogsa-hpcp-wg at ggf.org; ogsa-wg at gridforum.org;
> ogsa-bes-wg at ggf.org
> Subject: RE: [OGSA-BES-WG] [ogsa-wg] HPC profile questionaire draft
> 
> Marty,
> This sort of thing is best discussed in person to avoid mis-understandings.
> That said, our intent was not to get in the way of what you all are doing -
> rather during the F2F there was a realization that we needed experiences
> documents - for BES, JSDL, and HPC Profile, at some point. One idea was to
> have somebody go around, interview everybody, and write it up. Another was
> to ask each person to write-up their experiences. A third idea was to
> essentially help people write them up by asking a series of questions, the
> answers to which could be stitched together.
> 
> This IS NOT AN ATTEMPT TO TAKE OVER THE DECISION MAKING PROCESS IN THE
> HPC-PROFILE GROUP. It is an attempt (perhaps clumsily handled) to accelerate
> the process so that we can have as much done as possible before the next OGF
> - including by the way some sort of consensus on HPC-Profile 2.
> 
> A
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: ogsa-bes-wg-bounces at ogf.org [mailto:ogsa-bes-wg-bounces at ogf.org]
>> On Behalf Of Marty Humphrey
>> Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2006 9:41 AM
>> To: ogsa-hpcp-wg at ggf.org; ogsa-wg at gridforum.org; ogsa-bes-wg at ggf.org
>> Subject: Re: [OGSA-BES-WG] [ogsa-wg] HPC profile questionaire draft
>>
>> Hiro et. Al.,
>>
>> As the chair of the HPC Profile WG, I'm a little confused and concerned
>> about this survey.
>>
>> Requirements gathering, user-community engagement, and a desire to
>> continue
>> momentum are all excellent goals. I see this survey as attempting to
>> satisfy
>> these goals, which is great.
>>
>> But you're asking people to comment on something that isn't finished.
>> The
>> analogy is that the car is halfway through the assembly line and you're
>> asking people how the car company should improve the car's handling
>> around
>> turns.
>>
>> As I tried to explain in my dialogue with Ian, the initial "finished
>> product" was never intended to be just the HPC Base Profile by itself.
>> Rather, the very first "usable" product is the Base Profile with a small
>> set
>> of extensions that the working group will (shortly) define. There's no
>> way
>> that someone who fills out this survey could know what these extensions
>> are,
>> because there's been no public discussion of them to date. We're not
>> hiding
>> anything -- rather, a lot of people worked very hard to get the SC2006
>> interop demo working, and we just haven't had time to tell each other
>> our
>> very specific thoughts on what works, what is ambiguous, and what
>> extensions
>> should be pursued. I personally have participated in a number of these
>> conversations at SC, and we're planning for a WG call the week of Nov 27
>> to
>> discuss everyone's experiences (we haven't picked the date/time yet).
>>
>> Many of the questions on the survey imply that the HPC Profile WG thinks
>> that the HPC Base Profile is "complete", and that's a misrepresentation.
>> So
>> I think this survey, at this time, could be counterproductive.
>>
>> -- Marty
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: ogsa-wg-bounces at ogf.org [mailto:ogsa-wg-bounces at ogf.org] On Behalf
>> Of
>> Hiro Kishimoto
>> Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2006 9:17 AM
>> To: ogsa-hpcp-wg at ggf.org; ogsa-wg at gridforum.org; ogsa-bes-wg at ggf.org
>> Subject: Re: [ogsa-wg] HPC profile questionaire draft
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> Based on the suggested questions and discussions, I've created survey
>> template for HPC profile SC06 interop.
>>
>> Please have a look and give your feedback by email.
>> This is still STRAWMAN. DO NOT ANSWER.
>>
>> http://www.zoomerang.com/recipient/survey.zgi?p=WEB225VTDXBJCL
>>
>> Thanks,
>> ----
>> Hiro Kishimoto
>>
>> Ian Foster wrote:
>>> Marty:
>>>
>>> My words "far from adequate" and "tiny" were not fair, I agree. My
>>> comments were meant to be constructive, in the manner you expressed
>> them
>>> below.
>>>
>>> Ian.
>>>
>>> Marty Humphrey wrote:
>>>> Ian,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Your points are very good and absolutely valid. Absolutely. Great
>> points.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> While you and I might disagree with such words as "far from adequate"
>>>> and even "tiny" in your subsequent email, we agree that it's very
>>>> important to scope this properly, for the points you articulated.
>>>>
>>>> And to clarify: I don't think it's necessarily those people most
>>>> closely connected with the effort who might think or claim that the
>>>> scope is broader than it should be in reality. (Is that sentence
>>>> parsable?) I have found that the people on the WG calls and those
>>>> people implementing the spec generally have the proper perspective on
>>>> this work, in my opinion. Of course, the issue now regards MY
>>>> perspective :^)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Again, I think you make a great point that we have sure that vendors
>>>> don't just implement this Base HPC Profile and claim they're done.
>>>> We've always thought that a key to the overall HPC Profile will be
>> the
>>>> extensions -- making sure that EVERYONE understands this point is
>>>> critical for this effort.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -- Marty
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> ---
>>>> *From:* Ian Foster [mailto:foster at mcs.anl.gov]
>>>> *Sent:* Friday, November 17, 2006 5:49 PM
>>>> *To:* Marty Humphrey
>>>> *Cc:* 'Subramaniam, Ravi'; ogsa-hpcp-wg at ggf.org; ogsa-bes-wg at ggf.org;
>>>> ogsa-wg at gridforum.org
>>>> *Subject:* Re: [OGSA-BES-WG] [ogsa-wg] HPC profile questionaire draft
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Marty:
>>>>
>>>> Please don't apologize: you should never let a comment from me go
>>>> without response (-:
>>>>
>>>> I didn't mean to suggest that the HPC Profile should not be passed to
>>>> the GGF editor.
>>>>
>>>> However, while we should certainly celebrate our success in creating
>>>> the profile and getting people to implement it, I think it is
>>>> critically important that we be explicit about how tiny a step we
>> have
>>>> taken. Otherwise, we risk backlash from the "public" (when they look
>>>> at this spec we are making such a fuss over) and also, potentially, a
>>>> loss of focus from the vendors who we need to work towards true
>>>> interop. For some vendors, having a spec that they can say they are
>>>> compliant with--and then extend in nonstandard ways to address
>>>> security, staging, etc., etc.--will be more important than continuing
>>>> the hard work of specification.We don't want to let that happen.
>>>>
>>>> Ian.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Marty Humphrey wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Ian,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm sorry, but I can't let that "far from adequate" go by without
>>>> response. For the real business scenarios that we have been pursuing,
>>>> I do not believe that the HPC Profile is "far from adequate". This
>> has
>>>> been reinforced by our experience talking with people at SC.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Post-thanksgiving, our WG will refine the HPC Profile somewhat, but I
>>>> don't believe that we will have a significant effort before pushing
>> it
>>>> to the GGF editor.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> As you know, its design is one of extensibility and composability. I
>>>> believe that the HPC "Base Profile" will be sufficient for many real
>>>> business use cases. I also believe that the planned extensions are
>>>> important for many situations.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> - Marty
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> ---
>>>> *From:* ogsa-bes-wg-bounces at ogf.org
>>>> <mailto:ogsa-bes-wg-bounces at ogf.org>
>>>> [mailto:ogsa-bes-wg-bounces at ogf.org] *On Behalf Of *Ian Foster
>>>> *Sent:* Friday, November 17, 2006 3:26 PM
>>>> *To:* Subramaniam, Ravi
>>>> *Cc:* ogsa-hpcp-wg at ggf.org <mailto:ogsa-hpcp-wg at ggf.org>;
>>>> ogsa-bes-wg at ggf.org <mailto:ogsa-bes-wg at ggf.org>;
>>>> ogsa-wg at gridforum.org <mailto:ogsa-wg at gridforum.org>
>>>> *Subject:* Re: [OGSA-BES-WG] [ogsa-wg] HPC profile questionaire draft
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I want to understand what people think we need for real interop. The
>>>> HPC Profile as currently defined seems far from adequate for that
>>>> purpose. We've mention staging and security as two issues. There are
>>>> presumably others.
>>>>
>>>> Ian.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Subramaniam, Ravi wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Andrew,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> One question could be "Is the profile as it stands complete from your
>>>> perspective? At least for the focus/business areas or types of
>>>> customers that you plan to implement for?"
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The motivation is that depending on the verticals (e.g. financial,
>>>> pharma) there may be some issue that may need to be resolved to be
>>>> successful. In this way at least some target constituencies that can
>>>> best benefit from what is currently there can be determined. We can
>>>> also begin more targeted campaign at the OGF level towards
>>>> consumers/customers/end-users and providers in that segments.
>> Building
>>>> traction in one of more specific segments may help build momentum for
>>>> others.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Ravi
>>>>
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> ---
>>>> *From:* ogsa-wg-bounces at ogf.org <mailto:ogsa-wg-bounces at ogf.org>
>>>> [mailto:ogsa-wg-bounces at ogf.org] *On Behalf Of *Maguire_Tom at emc.com
>>>> <mailto:Maguire_Tom at emc.com>
>>>> *Sent:* Friday, November 17, 2006 11:12 AM
>>>> *To:* grimshaw at cs.virginia.edu <mailto:grimshaw at cs.virginia.edu>;
>>>> ogsa-wg at gridforum.org <mailto:ogsa-wg at gridforum.org>;
>>>> ogsa-hpcp-wg at ggf.org <mailto:ogsa-hpcp-wg at ggf.org>;
>>>> ogsa-bes-wg at ggf.org <mailto:ogsa-bes-wg at ggf.org>
>>>> *Subject:* Re: [ogsa-wg] HPC profile questionaire draft
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Is there enough specificity in the profile for your engineers to
>>>> successfully implement?  If not what do you need?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Tom
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Tom Maguire
>>>> +1(845) 729-4806
>>>>
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> ---
>>>> *From:* ogsa-wg-bounces at ogf.org <mailto:ogsa-wg-bounces at ogf.org>
>>>> [mailto:ogsa-wg-bounces at ogf.org] *On Behalf Of *Andrew Grimshaw
>>>> *Sent:* Friday, November 17, 2006 10:21 AM
>>>> *To:* 'Ogsa-Wg'; ogsa-hpcp-wg at ggf.org <mailto:ogsa-hpcp-wg at ggf.org>;
>>>> ogsa-bes-wg at ggf.org <mailto:ogsa-bes-wg at ggf.org>
>>>> *Subject:* [ogsa-wg] HPC profile questionaire draft
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> All,
>>>>
>>>> At the OGSA F2F I was tasked with coming up with a series of
>> questions
>>>> about the HPC profile experiences to go into a zoomerang, so that an
>>>> experiences paper could be generated -- either for HPC profile, JSDL,
>>>> and/or BES.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Here is a start. Note -- comment on/add questions. Do NOT answer
>>>> them!!! That will come later.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 1)    Will the HPC-Profile be useful to your organization/company?
>>>> Explain.
>>>>
>>>> 2)    Will you engineer your products to be hpc-profile compliant?
>>>>
>>>> 3)    In your opinion, are there any unresolved ambiguities? Explain?
>>>>
>>>> 4)    Thoughts on the next profile? Anything in particular from BES
>> or
>>>> JSDL (or other specification) that you would like to include.
>>>>
>>>> 5)    Approximately how many person-days did it take you to implement
>>>> the HPC-profile?
>>>>
>>>> 6)    What would you change in the HPC-profile? Why?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Remember this is a STRAWMAN ONLY for discussion! Please add, suggest
>>>> removal, or modify the above.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> A
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Andrew Grimshaw
>>>>
>>>> Professor of Computer Science
>>>>
>>>> University of Virginia
>>>>
>>>> 434-982-2204
>>>>
>>>> grimshaw at cs.virginia.edu <mailto:grimshaw at cs.virginia.edu>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> ---
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>   ogsa-wg mailing list
>>>>   ogsa-wg at ogf.org <mailto:ogsa-wg at ogf.org>
>>>>   http://www.ogf.org/mailman/listinfo/ogsa-wg
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>>    Ian Foster, Director, Computation Institute
>>>> Argonne National Laboratory & University of Chicago
>>>> Argonne: MCS/221, 9700 S. Cass Ave, Argonne, IL 60439
>>>> Chicago: Rm 405, 5640 S. Ellis Ave, Chicago, IL 60637
>>>> Tel: +1 630 252 4619.  Web: www.ci.uchicago.edu
>>>> <http://www.ci.uchicago.edu>.
>>>>       Globus Alliance: www.globus.org <http://www.globus.org>.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>>    Ian Foster, Director, Computation Institute
>>>> Argonne National Laboratory & University of Chicago
>>>> Argonne: MCS/221, 9700 S. Cass Ave, Argonne, IL 60439
>>>> Chicago: Rm 405, 5640 S. Ellis Ave, Chicago, IL 60637
>>>> Tel: +1 630 252 4619.  Web: www.ci.uchicago.edu
>>>> <http://www.ci.uchicago.edu>.
>>>>       Globus Alliance: www.globus.org <http://www.globus.org>.
>>>
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> --
>>> --
>>>   ogsa-hpcp-wg mailing list
>>>   ogsa-hpcp-wg at ogf.org
>>>   http://www.ogf.org/mailman/listinfo/ogsa-hpcp-wg
>> --
>>   ogsa-wg mailing list
>>   ogsa-wg at ogf.org
>>   http://www.ogf.org/mailman/listinfo/ogsa-wg
>>
>> --
>>   ogsa-bes-wg mailing list
>>   ogsa-bes-wg at ogf.org
>>   http://www.ogf.org/mailman/listinfo/ogsa-bes-wg
> 
> 
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