[OGSA-BES-WG] Tracker Resolution Descriptions

Ian Foster foster at mcs.anl.gov
Wed Sep 6 14:38:26 CDT 2006 

I think we have gotten ourselves a little confused here.

The way I see the issue: this is not a question of WS-Transfer vs. WSRF, 
etc.--the point being raised is  (as I initially said):

"He [Peter] advocates (I believe) that we should not include the 
GetAttributesDocument operation in BES. Instead, any particular BES should 
choose (if they wish) to provide access to attributes via appropriate 
operation(s).

  * A WS-Transfer-based BES would use GET
  * A WSRF-based BES would use WS-ResourceProperties
  * A resource-model-free BES might define a GetAttributesDocument operation
  * etc."

The point being that if we have GetAttributesDocument in BES, then anyone 
implementing a WS-Transfer-based version of BES will end up with two 
operations, Get and GetAttributesDocument, that basically do the same 
thing. Similarly for WSRF. Not fatal, but arguably rather inelegant.

Ian.


At 02:26 PM 9/6/2006 -0400, Maguire_Tom at emc.com wrote:
>Content-class: urn:content-classes:message
>Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature";
>         micalg=SHA1; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0063_01C6D1C0.5FDDB850"
>
>But the only reason we were resource agnostic was because there was
>conflict.  We didn't choose to be resource agnostic just because it seemed
>like a good idea (did we?).  There certainly was (are) some who argue
>against any resource model (eg. Purely stateless services), vs those who
>would encode some resource identity into an addressing scheme (WS-RF and
>WS-Transfer).  In the end most (all) of this discussion is about whether we
>should encode identity of state in parameters in the body of the request or
>we should encode identity of state in the headers not whether there is state
>or not.
>Personally, I think that WS-Addressing makes all of this pretty moot, but if
>shouting at the wind makes us feel better, feel free....
>
>Tom
>
>_______________________________________________
>Tom Maguire
>+1(845) 729-4806
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: ogsa-bes-wg-bounces at ogf.org [mailto:ogsa-bes-wg-bounces at ogf.org] On
>Behalf Of Andrew Grimshaw
>Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 1:48 PM
>To: 'Mail list for ogsa-bes-wg working group'
>Subject: Re: [OGSA-BES-WG] Tracker Resolution Descriptions
>
>I agree with Chris - I never thought of this as a WS-RF versus anything else
>issue - more an issue with trying to be resource model agnostic.
>
>A
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: ogsa-bes-wg-bounces at ogf.org [mailto:ogsa-bes-wg-bounces at ogf.org]
> > On Behalf Of Christopher Smith
> > Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 1:17 PM
> > To: Mail list for ogsa-bes-wg working group
> > Cc: ogsa-bes-wg at ggf.org
> > Subject: Re: [OGSA-BES-WG] Tracker Resolution Descriptions
> >
> > Characterizing this issue as WS-RF vs WS-Transfer is misleading. I can't
> > recall any discussions within this group where anybody advocated doing a
> > WS-Transfer rendering for the BES interface. Well ... other than the WS-
> > RF
> > proponents who wrongly assumed that because some (like myself) were
> > against
> > the use of WS-RF, that must mean we were in favour of WS-Transfer. I
> > also
> > don't recall anybody advocating operations for modification, etc such as
> > defined within WS-Transfer. To me this is a discussion of a resource
> > modelling approach (built on WS-RF) vs a non resource modelling approach.
> >
> > My main reason for not wanting to make use of one of the resource
> > modelling
> > approaches has to do with the burden of implementation. If Platform buys
> > into one of these resource models, we no longer have to implement one
> > simple
> > spec and test compliance of that specification, but we need to implement
> > and
> > test compliance on a suite of specifications, for (in my opinion) no
> > extra
> > benefit. You might say that once you've implemented a resource modelling
> > suite of specifications, you can use it over and over and thus amortize
> > the
> > cost of this implementation. But even at a small cost, it's not one that
> > I'm
> > willing to take, as the implementation of standards specifications is
> > one
> > feature in a sea of features that we implement from product release to
> > product release.
> >
> > -- Chris
> >
> >
> >
> > On 06/9/06 07:56, "Peter G. Lane" <lane at mcs.anl.gov> wrote:
> >
> > > If it's about fear of reopening the dialog, then I'd appreciate if
> > someone
> > > could at least add
> > > comments to the two trackers addressing the issues raised.
> > >
> > > Ian can push for reopening this particular issue if he wants; but I
> > just want
> > > to know why we're
> > > advocating WS-Transfer in spirit if not in name, and why aggregation
> > of
> > > resource attributes is not a
> > > concern to anyone else. As long as someone has a reason for these
> > issues that
> > > I raised in the
> > > tracker, I'm fine. I don't expect to get everything to go my way, and
> > I'm open
> > > to being convinced of
> > > alternate points of view. I just don't like being ignorant, especially
> > when
> > > I'll have to implement
> > > the spec someday.
> > >
> > > On the other hand, if nobody has a good answer for the issues, I think
> > Ian is
> > > perfectly valid in
> > > asking for it to be reopened as apparently the issues weren't actually
> > > addressed as they should have
> > > been.
> > >
> > > Peter
> > >
> > > Mark Morgan wrote:
> > >> Well, I guess the thing that confuses me is whether or not it is SOP
> > to
> > >> re-open an issue that was discussed previously because a new person
> > has
> > >> re-raised that issue.  I'll bow to whatever the majority thinks is
> > best of
> > >> course, but it seems to me that you can't reopen an issue everytime a
> > new
> > >> person re-raises it or you risk the possibility of continuously
> > cycling on
> > >> it.  New information should always be considered, but if an issue
> > gets
> > >> re-raised that has already been discussed fully and voted on, then it
> > >> doesn't make sense to re-discuss it.  Just my 2 cents worth...
> > >>
> > >> -Mark
> > >>
> > >>> -----Original Message-----
> > >>> From: ogsa-bes-wg-bounces at ogf.org
> > >>> [mailto:ogsa-bes-wg-bounces at ogf.org] On Behalf Of Ian Foster
> > >>> Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 9:39 PM
> > >>> To: Mail list for ogsa-bes-wg working group; 'Mail list for
> > >>> ogsa-bes-wg working group'; ogsa-bes-wg at ggf.org
> > >>> Subject: Re: [OGSA-BES-WG] Tracker Resolution Descriptions
> > >>>
> > >>> Mark:
> > >>>
> > >>> I guess that I am asking that we re-open the issue, then.
> > >>>
> > >>> Ian.
> > >>>
> > >>> At 07:47 PM 9/5/2006 -0400, Mark Morgan wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> I'm not sure what level of "addressing" is meant here, but my
> > >>> recollection/belief was that it was addressed in the
> > >>> group in so much as the
> > >>> topic was discussed at the last face-to-face and that
> > >>> the appearance of the
> > >>> GetAttributesDocument was the result of that
> > >>> discussion.  We haven't as a
> > >>> group discussed the email that Peter sent out yet but
> > >>> it is my belief that
> > >>> doing so is essentially a rehash of discussions previously had.
> > >>>
> > >>> -Mark
> > >>>
> > >>>> -----Original Message-----
> > >>>> From: ogsa-bes-wg-bounces at ogf.org
> > >>>> [mailto:ogsa-bes-wg-bounces at ogf.org] On Behalf Of Ian Foster
> > >>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 1:42 PM
> > >>>> To: Mail list for ogsa-bes-wg working group;
> > >>> ogsa-bes-wg at ggf.org
> > >>>> Subject: Re: [OGSA-BES-WG] Tracker Resolution Descriptions
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Has Peter's comment been discussed?
> > >>>>
> > >>>> He advocates (I believe) that we should not include the
> > >>>> GetAttributesDocument operation. Instead, any particular BES
> > >>>> should choose (if they wish) to provide access to attributes
> > >>>> via an appropriate resource model-specific operations.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> * A WS-Transfer-based BES would use GET
> > >>>> * A WSRF-based BES would use WS-ResourceProperties
> > >>>> * A resource-model-free BES might define a
> > >>>> GetAttributesDocument operation
> > >>>> * etc.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> This seems a good proposal to me.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Ian.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> At 03:09 PM 9/2/2006 -0600, Peter G. Lane wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>       2) Why are we still essentially advocating
> > >>>> WS-Transfer's attribute model by having the
> > >>>> GetAttributesDocument operation? In my opinion it is not
> > >>>> necessary for minimal interop, and makes WS-Transfer's Get
> > >>>> operation redundant. Is part of the problem that we haven't
> > >>>> defined any interop standards yet?
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>> _______________________________________________________________
> > >>>> Ian Foster -- Weblog: http://ianfoster.typepad.com
> > >>> <http://ianfoster.typepad.com/>
> > >>>> <http://ianfoster.typepad.com/> Computation Institute:
> > >>>> www.ci.uchicago.edu <http://www.ci.uchicago.edu/>
> > >>> <http://www.ci.uchicago.edu/>  &
> > >>>> www.ci.anl.gov <http://www.ci.anl.gov/>
> > >>> <http://www.ci.anl.gov/>
> > >>>> Argonne: MCS/221, 9700 S. Cass Ave, Argonne, IL 60439
> > >>>> Chicago: Rm 405, 5640 S. Ellis Ave, Chicago, IL 60637
> > >>>> Tel: +1 630 252 4619 --- Globus Alliance:
> > >>> www.globus.org <http://www.globus.org/>
> > >>>> <http://www.globus.org/>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>
> > >>> --
> > >>>  ogsa-bes-wg mailing list
> > >>>  ogsa-bes-wg at ogf.org
> > >>>  http://www.ogf.org/mailman/listinfo/ogsa-bes-wg
> > >>>
> > >>> _______________________________________________________________
> > >>> Ian Foster -- Weblog: http://ianfoster.typepad.com
> > >>> <http://ianfoster.typepad.com/> Computation Institute:
> > >>> www.ci.uchicago.edu <http://www.ci.uchicago.edu/>  &
> > >>> www.ci.anl.gov <http://www.ci.anl.gov/>
> > >>> Argonne: MCS/221, 9700 S. Cass Ave, Argonne, IL 60439
> > >>> Chicago: Rm 405, 5640 S. Ellis Ave, Chicago, IL 60637
> > >>> Tel: +1 630 252 4619 --- Globus Alliance: www.globus.org
> > >>> <http://www.globus.org/>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >>   ogsa-bes-wg mailing list
> > >>   ogsa-bes-wg at ogf.org
> > >>   http://www.ogf.org/mailman/listinfo/ogsa-bes-wg
> > >>
> > >
> > > --
> > >   ogsa-bes-wg mailing list
> > >   ogsa-bes-wg at ogf.org
> > >   http://www.ogf.org/mailman/listinfo/ogsa-bes-wg
> >
> > --
> >   ogsa-bes-wg mailing list
> >   ogsa-bes-wg at ogf.org
> >   http://www.ogf.org/mailman/listinfo/ogsa-bes-wg
>
>--
>   ogsa-bes-wg mailing list
>   ogsa-bes-wg at ogf.org
>   http://www.ogf.org/mailman/listinfo/ogsa-bes-wg
>Content-Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature;
>         name="smime.p7s"
>Content-Disposition: attachment;
>         filename="smime.p7s"
>
>0€      *†H†÷
>  €0€10  +0€     *†H†÷
>  ‚      Ê0‚=0‚¦ÍºVðßä¼Tþ"¬³rªU0
>         *†H†÷
>0_10    UUS10UVeriSign, Inc.1705U.Class 1 Public Primary Certification 
>Authority0
>960129000000Z
>280801235959Z0_10       UUS10UVeriSign, Inc.1705U.Class 1 Public Primary 
>Certification Authority0Ÿ0
>         *†H†÷
>0‰å¿m£Va-™HqögÞ¹ë·ž†€ ‘ú8%¯Fˆ‚ås¨ ›$]
>Ìen°ÐV„‡š›¡sß´X9knÁöÕ¨¨?ª1¬°4׏4gˆ 
>ÍâNEVix€ÚÜG‘)»6Éc\Åà×-‡{¡·2°{0º*/1ªî£gÚÛ0
>         *†H†÷
>L?¸‹ÆhßîC3]é¦Ë„Mz3ÿ’ô6­Ø•"6hl|BÌóœ.Ä?°Oÿ’vùâ¼JéÍ € 
>÷Å)ñ‚"]¸±Ý#£{%F0yøêK”ÂÈã·ô@<Ã_SèH䆴{¡5°{%º¸ÓŽ«?84˜óÑq”0‚b0‚Ë 
>ÚÁ?‰Ž«  tz´Î.30
>         *†H†÷
>0_10    UUS10UVeriSign, Inc.1705U.Class 1 Public Primary Certification 
>Authority0
>980512000000Z
>080512235959Z0Ì10UVeriSign, Inc.10UVeriSign Trust 
>Network1F0DU=www.verisign.com/repository/RPA Incorp. By 
>Ref.,LIAB.LTD(c)981H0FU?VeriSign Class 1 CA Individual Subscriber-Persona 
>Not Validated0Ÿ0
>         *†H†÷
>0‰»ZDŠ»UýzŠ-”Ox6¸
>J²oœT¿¼èw*¹ðh»•Ù1ApzK¹HV-Çá„B«À¢’«D\ªBð‚é/ûÂ;»¾É' 
>]¶°6B3µnTˆO‡J¿Úù臶ãÌÆšŽj$’ãüàeº§±~ïÉÛ7jÈJÈ 
>䙣°0­0U0ÿ0GU at 0>0<`†H†øE0-0++www.verisign.com/repository/RPA01U*0(0& $ 
>"† http://crl.verisign.com/pca1.crl0U0 `†H†øB0
>         *†H†÷
>}žoEK8 ¸ÞéSd!¼äL+þ’@¬Ø 
>9j¡2!,›«YþÓb}U8°7sÜôfcb½áSpR‡ç¨ØRé[-ªáÞϬ1TÔ‹ÈØ#¨ï+2},È|‰¨.wòDÑe 
>MtµîÓ’st.‰;5rç@1šÓ²Ä«çV¾‹ãû0‚0‚ˆ aI±thÆãøSȬ1ÌÀ .0
>         *†H†÷
>0Ì10UVeriSign, Inc.10UVeriSign Trust 
>Network1F0DU=www.verisign.com/repository/RPA Incorp. By 
>Ref.,LIAB.LTD(c)981H0FU?VeriSign Class 1 CA Individual Subscriber-Persona 
>Not Validated0
>060419000000Z
>070419235959Z0‚10UVeriSign, Inc.10UVeriSign Trust 
>Network1F0DU=www.verisign.com/repository/RPA Incorp. by 
>Ref.,LIAB.LTD(c)9810UPersona Not Validated1402U+Digital ID Class 1 - 
>Microsoft Full Service10UThomas Maguire1"0       *†H†÷
>         maguire_tom at emc.com0Ÿ0
>         *†H†÷
>0‰«¼å™O!² 
>cuû!ç_ãÚFÓWðçínøíy>—ϼ³ˆ$"ÎñÜeq¶Úß©ÇtŸúK?@K¬Ÿþ­[R˜EæâËH¶#»ÇS1w\¯l‡úè¾a7¦)ì_eÎËê66$±—ˆs²ù­‹xT¿4×í˪/磁µ0²0 
>U00DU=0;09`†H†øE0*0(+https://www.verisign.com/rpa0U 0U%0++03U,0*0( & 
>$†"http://crl.verisign.com/class1.crl0
>         *†H†÷
><¢A·ë¡ø
ƒ'¿Îá܏ßTî$ñ<Ü„{nDa6g‹WÛÈØ¿¤«€É¨O³Eq!ƒ€ÛÃnw)­ 
>´æ›ƒ5ܛʣÁ×eF¹D“ö¬‰«˜úÄ()“̇Lç£4ˆ½ä×Å„²AÿÅ,^š56¥¢Ó°®oI÷ñ¿AÿæÅ1‚>0‚:0á0Ì10UVeriSign, 
>Inc.10UVeriSign Trust Network1F0DU=www.verisign.com/repository/RPA Incorp. 
>By Ref.,LIAB.LTD(c)981H0FU?VeriSign Class 1 CA Individual 
>Subscriber-Persona Not ValidatedaI±thÆãøSȬ1ÌÀ .0  + ‚²0   *†H†÷
>         1       *†H†÷
>0       *†H†÷
>         1
>060906182559Z0# *†H†÷
>         1j._±‰¿•ÛáâVŽº«0g     *†H†÷
>         1Z0X0 *†H†÷
>0*†H†÷
>€0
>*†H†÷
>@0+0
>*†H†÷
>(0+0 *†H†÷
>0ò     +‚71ä0á0Ì10UVeriSign, Inc.10UVeriSign Trust 
>Network1F0DU=www.verisign.com/repository/RPA Incorp. By 
>Ref.,LIAB.LTD(c)981H0FU?VeriSign Class 1 CA Individual Subscriber-Persona 
>Not ValidatedaI±thÆãøSȬ1ÌÀ .0ô*†H†÷
>         1ä á0Ì10UVeriSign, Inc.10UVeriSign Trust 
> Network1F0DU=www.verisign.com/repository/RPA Incorp. By 
> Ref.,LIAB.LTD(c)981H0FU?VeriSign Class 1 CA Individual Subscriber-Persona 
> Not ValidatedaI±thÆãøSȬ1ÌÀ .0
>         *†H†÷
>€úëÜãû”´6óÝK?ܦW¼]ÀêÐã¶1Vz’ìWú`=®îBÎ䬇RÉ/ >H+’AN½Ü¸üߊϩsÕ©JHs«Â´œŠ¾k\=`
 
>1Ô
‰Uoéûãókñ?v¦p¬Dí©|)ú´!É1#ٍ•ñÂ1‡ê5þ
>--
>   ogsa-bes-wg mailing list
>   ogsa-bes-wg at ogf.org
>   http://www.ogf.org/mailman/listinfo/ogsa-bes-wg

_______________________________________________________________
Ian Foster -- Weblog: http://ianfoster.typepad.com
Computation Institute: www.ci.uchicago.edu & www.ci.anl.gov
Argonne: MCS/221, 9700 S. Cass Ave, Argonne, IL 60439
Chicago: Rm 405, 5640 S. Ellis Ave, Chicago, IL 60637
Tel: +1 630 252 4619 --- Globus Alliance: www.globus.org


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://www.ogf.org/pipermail/ogsa-bes-wg/attachments/20060906/c1e45f16/attachment.htm

More information about the ogsa-bes-wg mailing list