[dais-wg] DAIS Telcon Minutes
Dave Berry
daveb at nesc.ac.uk
Tue Jan 11 14:02:57 CST 2005
BTW, the draft is on GridForge at
https://forge.gridforum.org/docman2/ViewCategory.php?group_id=42&categor
y_id=883
-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Berry
Sent: 11 January 2005 19:46
To: Mario Antonioletti; dais-wg at ggf.org
Subject: RE: [dais-wg] DAIS Telcon Minutes
To clarify/confirm one of the things I reported: the current (very
preliminary) draft of the OGSA Basic Profile extends the WS-I Basic
Profile v1.1 with WS-Addressing, WS-Resource, WS-Resource-Lifetime,
WS-Service-Group & WS-Base-Faults. It is currently intended to add
naming (possibly in the form of WS-Renewable-References) and
WS-Basic-Notification.
Dave.
-----Original Message-----
From: Mario Antonioletti [mailto:mario at epcc.ed.ac.uk]
Sent: 11 January 2005 18:58
To: dais-wg at ggf.org
Subject: [dais-wg] DAIS Telcon Minutes
Hi,
Please send me any corrections/omissions/clarifications.
Mario
---
DAIS Telcon Minutes - 11/01/05
==============================
Chair: Dave Pearson
Note taker: Mario Antonioletti
Present:
-------
Dave Pearson, Oracle
Mario Antonioletti, EPCC
Simon Laws, IBM
Susan Malaika, IBM
Thomas Soddemann, IPP
Allen Luniewski, IBM
Dave Berry, NeSC
Amy Krause, EPCC
Agenda:
------
Review of outstanding actions
Review of revised Socialising document, questions and target
audience
DAIS presence at GGF13
VLDB Workshop Invitation
Actions:
-------
New Actions
-----------
[Dave P] Send an email to the mailing list to see if anyone is
interested
in attending the OGSA f2f on behalf of DAIS.
Outstanding
-----------
[Norman & Simon] Identify scenarios for disconnected data sets. Post
these on Grid Forge. Review in a future telcon.
[All] Discuss Simon's posting to the DAIS list about naming.
[Mario] To make a concrete proposal about a top level default data
access operation and inform Norman.
[Simon & Susan] Discuss outstanding WS-DAIR issues and post to the list.
[Susan] To make a pass through WS-DAIR and note any outstanding issues.
[Shannon] Interact with Amy to fix inconsistent naming of the ca-tory
portTypes.
[Shannon] To propose a way forward regarding support for XUpdate and
post to the list.
[Shannon] To post a proposal on optionality regarding
XMLCollectionAccess::AddSchema to the list.
[Simon] To add an issue regarding the fact that the WS-DAIX WSDL is
not consistent with WS-DAI WSDL and discuss with Amy.
[Norman] To arrange a mid-Jan telcon date to discuss outstanding issues
on Grid Forge.
[Simon] Wrap up the mappings document and submit it (pass on to Norman).
To be done by the end of November.
[Norman] See if a new telcon number can be sorted out for future DAIS
calls.
Completed Actions
-----------------
[Dave P.] To draft and distribute a new version of the socialising
document.
Done.
[Susan] To email to Dave contacts in XQJ and XQuery groups.
Done.
----
(Dave is Dave Pearson until Dave Berry joins the call)
o Review of outstanding actions
These were processed.
Dave: is there anything that we want to be able to do for the documents
for GGF13?
Mario: It would be useful if the xml spec issues were sorted out.
Simon: It would be useful to review if we want to change the basic
approach.
Lots of things have been happening.
Susan: there is also the relation with the OGSA profiles work and
whether this affects DAIS.
Mario: Dave Berry said he might call in.
Dave: there is also the Andrew Grimshaw meeting.
Susan: is this an official OGSA meeting?
Dave reads out the email and sees no reason why it should not be an
official OGSA meeting.
Susan: dates coincide with the WSRF face-to-face meeting in the US.
Mario: when is the submission date for GGF13?
Susan: 18th of February.
o Review of revised Socialising document, questions and target audience
Dave: have had some feedback from Mario. He said that the
introduction might be couched in too high a level ... the
overview needs to be read by people who are in higher level
management. The really technical stuff is done by more technical
people...
Allen: I think that is the right target audience.
Susan: I do agree with Mario's comments.
Mario: gives an overview of the high level comments:
- overview too general and long
- links to individual documents should be used as opposed to a
pointer
in Grid Forge
- questions too verbose, should be shorter and snappier
Dave: I agree with the links; trying to put in context round the
questions so that we get back answers ...
Simon: like simple questions but there is a timing question - we are
still unsure how the DAIS specs fit in with everything else. It
is unfair to ask people about things that we ourselves feel
unsure about.
Dave: at a functional level we have a clear understanding but how it
fits in and what framework you you use then that is more
difficult...
Simon: the functions are relatively simple now but the model is
difficult to explain without a specific mapping. Some of this
is speculative.
Dave: We are putting a list of questions which are difficult if you do
not have a mapping.
Susan: I kind of agree with that ... the answer might depend on the
assumptions and these have not been firmly decided yet.
Dave: my concern is that people would come back that there is
insufficient information. We could get a negative response. We
really want this to be a rubber stamping.
Mario: However Malcolm keeps on asking us to submit DAIS so OGSA-DAI
can implement it. Also, we are in danger of missing out on
being incorporated into an OGSA profile -- we could use such
a survey to leverage our way in.
Simon: I agree with that ...
Susan: need to choose a framework.
Dave: I think that this is more important. ... the consensus then
appears to be that the survey is only feasible once we have a
framework. Then the questionnaire would be much more specific.
Mario: what is actually stopping us from adopting a framework?
Simon: the fact that there is more than one framework.
Susan: the fact that there is more than one, that OGSA is going to be
use profiles ...
Mario: if OGSA produce a basic profile would that allow us to choose a
framework?
Susan: need to know whether we are going to follow the OGSA framework.
...
Simon: maybe that stuff will be mapped in the basic profile but having
an acceptable mapping for those standards is what has caused us
so much difficulty ....
Dave: but if WS-I and WSRF are going to be in the basic profile then
we have the same problems that were outlined in the mappings
document
Simon: we need to keep the WS-I and the WSRF people happy. The profile
would be interesting to see but it may not be sufficiently clear
for what we want to represent.
Dave Berry joins the call.
Dave P: we should hold off on the survey on the socialising.
Mario: Need to be able to leverage the fact that DAIS is an
important spec to be included in an OGSA profile.
Simon: I agree but we need to do more work.
Dave: will hold this survey until at least the next meeting.
Can now ask Dave about profiles.
Dave B.: there was an OGSA f2f in Dec. For that meeting a doc was
produced suggesting that OGSA should build profiles suggesting
how standards are going to be used. There have been some
presentations about this at various meetings.
Currently there are 3 profiles being touted: the basic profile is
getting the most attention - wsrf + naming (may use ws-renewable
references) and ws basic notification. Currently have a draft
that extends off ws-i 1.1. Also, need profiles for data and
execution management services. In data I want to see DAIS
included + some file stuff + GridFTP and some human name to
abstract name mapping stuff.
A completed profile is only meant for "stable" and "widely
accepted specifications". There is a draft template that states
what is required for a profile document to be accepted as a
recommendation. Also, the constraints that should be placed on
these specs should be more strict on what is required by the
existing GGF process. There must at least be an implementation
and a degree of stability in the specification for it to be
accepted. Some want at least 2 inter-operable implementations and
wide acceptance to carry a profile document through.
DAIS has one implementation - possibly two if you count eldas.
Pushing hard to have something like DAIS to be included. There
is a chicken and egg process ... GGF should ratify its own work.
Simon: need to be careful because OGSA-DAI does not implement the
current DAIS spec. It is heading in that direction but it is
not there yet.
Dave B.: we would need to be able to convince that this is true .. the
two are beginning to converge ...
Mario: is there a date for the basic profile to come out?
Dave B.: intend to submit it by GGF14. There is going to be a uk
e-science meeting on the 31st January. Hope to arrange a
follow-up data meeting as Andrew Grimshaw will be present. There
is going to be an OGSA f2f meeting on Feb 14 which I will not be
able to attend where they will discuss the basic profiles. There
is awareness that DAIS has issues about WSRF. Dave Snelling was
hoping that someone from DAIS/OGSA-DAI might be able to attend.
At GGF13 OGSA are going to have 13 WG meetings. First session
will be plenary then there are number of profile sessions: data,
basic, naming, EMS, etc ...
Might want to consider how DAIS engages with this. Should try to
get people talking about the basic profile.
Dave P.: who is presenting on the data profile?
Dave B.: that would be in my space. If someone wishes to take on this
notion happy to work with them.
Dave P.: assume the data profile would say yes or no regarding the
inclusion
of DAIS.
Dave B.: but you also need to say how it inter-operates with other
specs/profiles. Could use GGF to kick this process together.
Susan: are these profiles inter-operability? APIs? ...
Dave B.: inter-operability like WS-I. Someone who conforms with a
profile should be inter-operable ...
Susan: a profile could incorporate all the DAIS bits ...
Dave P.: will this require WSRF?
Dave B.: yes, all services would have to satisfy the basic profile.
Susan: and the basic profile has WSN and WSRF?
Dave B.: yes. I can't remember all the details but I think it's most
of WSRF and only basic notification.
Susan: so for DAIS to be an OGSA profile it would have to have a WSRF
compatible description?
Dave B.: yes and use ws-addressing.
Dave P.: does that mean that will be expected of all GGF standards?
Dave B.: you could have GGF standards that are not OGSA compliant, at
least as things stand at the moment.
Susan: it sounds like DAIS wants to discuss where it wants to be part
of a profile.
Dave P.: that has to be discussed and on whose terms it wants to be a
profile.
Dave B.: important to engage with what is in a basic profile. The data
profile is up to myself and Andrew Grimshaw. You can say no to
DAIS being included. Currently trying to defend the space for
DAIS to be included.
Susan: in the UK, there will be input from OGSA-DAI. Sounds like quite
an important meeting.
Dave B.: this meeting is trying to decide what uk e-science wants to
come out of the standardisation bodies. This is being led by
Steve Newhouse with input from Tony Hey.
Susan: after that meeting who else will you be getting input for data?
Dave B.: trying to get some people to come along and discuss the draft
data architecture.
Susan: what do you hope for GGF13?
Dave B.: would like DAIS to be part of a profile. Need to determine
whether there will be one or more data profiles.
Dave P.: what about infod?
Dave B.: could be. Did not mean to exclude it.
Dave P.: what about JDBC?
Dave B.: would not expect so as that is Java specific.
Susan: what do you expect of DAIS then?
Dave B.: there was that posting that you sent about wsrf to the
mailing list that is being taken seriously. I gather there is
discussion in wsrf about use of ws-addressing. Maybe you could
push for different OGSA profiles ...
Susan: DAIS is trying to determine on what pieces of infrastructure it
depends on or what it could depend on.
Dave P.: also want to depend on things that we know are going to be
widely adopted.
Dave B.: part of the reason for having the profiles is to bolster
adoption. You don't need to include everything in the profile
but if you include bits in a profile there is no requirement that
you use it but if you do use it you must use it as specified in
the profile, e.g. UDDI in WS-I. So, things could work in a
similar way. Will try to clarify.
Dave P.: thanks for that overview.
Dave B.: anyone interested in attending the OGSA f2f in Chicago?
Susan: that is 3 days from the GGF meeting deadline.
o DAIS presence at GGF13
Dave: Norman is not available for GGF13. Want to give an overview of
what
DAIS is ... the OGSA profile document is going to be very
important.
Who is available for GGF13?
Susan will try to be.
Simon does not have a plan to attend.
Mario probably yes.
Amy yes.
Thomas probably not.
Allen will be there.
Dave B. will be there.
Dave P. will probably be there.
Dave P.: so we will have a presence. Norman was suggesting that we
should
have a couple of DAIS sessions.
Dave B.:will try to ensure that the data meetings do not clash with
DAIS.
Dave P.: probably do not want more than 2 sessions ...
...
Simon: should comitt to some slides if not the document for GGF13.
DONM: 18/01/05. 4pm GMT. To discuss:
OGSA profiles.
What is going to happen at GGF13.
VLDB workshop invitation.
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|Mario Antonioletti:EPCC,JCMB,The King's Buildings,Edinburgh EH9 3JZ.
|
|Tel:0131 650 5141|mario at epcc.ed.ac.uk|http://www.epcc.ed.ac.uk/~mario/
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