Decline of the Cypherpunks list...Part 19

[J.A. Terranson]

On Sun, 7 Dec 2003, Tim May wrote:

> I have several theories/conjectures about what is happening to mailing 
> lists.
> 
> First, a lot of the younger folks--who used to be some of the fresh 
> blood for lists like ours--are not users of mailing lists. I expect 
> some of them don't even know such things exist. For them, IM is the 
> norm. (And IM is mostly an interpersonal, chat format.)

Not true.  I personally run several mailing lists with heavy political
bents.  One in particular, "antisocial" (the name is a play on a post someone
made a long time ago) is vibrant and continually growing.  But they need to
be nurtured - this is the failing of this list.  We no longer take care to
bring in new blood.  We have failed utterly to encourage new ideas.  And any
new blood which may test the waters with a posting that doesn't follow median
doctrine is likely to find themselves and their deviant ideas under heavy
attack, rather than discussion.

People won't post ideas that conflict with the mainstream (which obviously is
different in each unique forum) if these ideas are either dismissed out of
hand or attacked ad hominem.


> Second, blogs seem to have taken over for many formerly active mailing 
> lists.

Not really.  The blogs tend to be more of a "pulpit" that an idea exchange
point.

> In some of the areas of interest to me, a dozen blogs are 
> frequently read, including the ones with fairly active followup. And 
> example is "Lambda the Ultimate," http://lambda.weblogs.com/, just one 
> of many similar language and programming blogs.


Yes, but these suffer from the same malaise of everyone having the same
opinion :-(

 
> (Personally, I think much is being lost in the shift away from Usenet 


Usenet is the perfect example of an inherently hostile arena.  Even worse,
its a perfect example of what true anarchy really is - usenet has been lost
to the disruptors.


> and mailing lists towards these blogs. For while follow-ups exist for 
> many of them, there is always the sense that one is participating in 
> Dave Winer's blog, or Mitch Kapor's blog, or whatever. Further, many of 
> the blogs take on a "my daily diary" and "random musings" tone. 

Precisely.


> By the 
> way, though I read the good blogs, like LtU, I don't post to any of 
> them.)
> 
> Third, the explosion of mailing lists, Yahoo discussion groups, 
> "pipermail" groups (such as the E language and "capabilities" folks 
> tend to use), etc., has made many groups "subcritical." (Something we 
> began to see half a dozen years ago, when Cypherpunks had a bunch of 
> close competitors (cryptography, coderpunks, etc.), plus several lists 
> run by Hettinga, plus a couple by Declan, and so on. Cross-posting to 
> Usenet newsgroups was bad enough, but cross-posting to many mailing 
> lists was a major pain. Especially as most lists are closed to 
> outsiders, who can sometimes posts, sometimes not, but where context 
> and followups are lost.)
> 
> Fourth, 9/11. A lot of people got very scared of saying what they 
> think. 

Totally agree, however, CP has been going "subcritical" since long before
9/11.


> Read the archives and note the drop-off in certain kinds of 
> political discussion. Even some of the former nodes have vanished; my 
> hunch is that many of those subscribed to the vanished nodes never 
> bothered to find another node. (I have no idea how many subscribers the 
> list has. The nodes I know of don't allow listing the subscribers. 

None of mine will allow it either, with the reason being the protection of
the list contributors.


> I 
> would not be surprised if the subscription total has dropped below a 
> few hundred. And of these, clearly only a few dozen regular posters 
> come to mind.)
> 
> Fifth, relevant for our list, "crypto is tired." As in Wired's old 
> "wired/tired" joke column (and of course "Wired" is _especially_ 
> tired). Not that crypto is less important now than it was, but, 
> plainly, some things expected have not yet happened, with little 
> prospect of happening soon. And since the basic ideas have been 
> discussed so many times before, in so many ways, not much excitement in 
> discussing "dining cryptographers" for the 7th time, or "how to make 
> PGP more popular" for the 16th time.

CP has always been so much more than crypto.  The history here is political,
with crypto not always playing a part.  Even the non-crypto discussion is
almost completely lost.



> Sixth, the lack of news about crypto. No prosecutions of a "folk hero" 
> like Zimmermann to pull in newcomers. No Clipper chip. No bans on 
> crypto (at least not yet).
> 
> But even if crypto got trendy again, I just don't see the young 
> students of today flocking to our particular mailing list. Too many 
> other choices. Probably they'll read someone's daily blog....

Unless someone goes out of their way to try and introduce them to the
list.  We regularly solicit for antisocial - especially from areas that are
anathema to the posting-core of the list.  

To put it simply, CP has lost many of the core values that made it so
important - Information Wants To Be Free, right?  Or does it. 

We are not spedning much time trying to dig up information from people with
positions we may consider abhorrent... 


> One last reason, the most controversial one. When I was 40 I really had 
> no difficulty dealing with the 20-year-olds. They seemed basically a 
> lot like I was when I was their age. But something has changed. Maybe 
> it's me, maybe it's not. But now, at the age of almost 52, I find 
> dealing with most of the people in their 20s I encounter, even at CP 
> meetings, much harder. Maybe it's their usually bald heads (seems many 
> guys in their 20s shave their heads). Maybe it's the rings through 
> their noses and eyebrows and lips and other places (shudder). Maybe 
> it's that openly embrace "geekiness" without actually having a solid 
> foundation in math and physics and such. And probably it's that when I 
> was 40 I was not _that_ much older than the people in their 20s...but 
> now I am older than their own parents!


Oh jesus: the "Young People Are So *Different*" BS.  Spare us.  This is the
easy way out - it places the onus on others, when really the weight falls to
all of us.  We need to either put up or shut up.


> Whatever, I find when I talk to these newcomers with their bald heads, 
> their piercings, their Linux geek talk, I have almost nothing in common 
> with them.
> 
> And, as many have noted, very few of the "kids" today are libertarians 
> (either small L or large L). This was the fertile ground Cypherpunks 
> started in (myself, Gilmore, Stewart, Sandfort, etc., whether or not 
> they called themselves libertarians or not).

Then why aren't you inviting them here to listen and learn?  Maybe you can
convert them?  Or maybe they will convert you?


> This shows up in the fact that protests against global capitalism draw 
> vast crowds of young people, and even several subscribers to our list 
> have nattered on about the dangers of globalism and free trade.
> 
> In other words, politically-speaking, Cypherpunks is out of tune with 
> what most twentysomethings seem to believe.


No.  Cypherpunks has become out of tune with what most CPs claim to believe.

> 
> --Tim May
> "As my father told me long ago, the objective is not to convince someone
>   with your arguments but to provide the arguments with which he later
>   convinces himself." -- David Friedman
> 

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

Father, you are a great and mighty God. Help our governments to remember the
lessons of our history and to appreciate the purpose of your son Jesus. Teach
our representatives not to be so arrogant as to speak in one way, but doing
another, for surely this not the way of truth. Help us to understand that
your will is not death but life, not the darkness of hatred but the light of
friendship in Christ. In the name of Jesus we pray. Amen.

Merle Harton, Jr.