Hi all, FTP, LTL, PBG! I have had enough of the state of the United Kingdom - not to mention the many other states across, around, and inside the globe some call Earth. Those yet to be formed, and those beginning to form, in the near Earth environment must not be excluded from our development as a collective. I would like to be advised of my chances of establishing a United Kingdoms organisation, tasked with maintaining human endeavours appropriately, distinctly and in conjunction, with only a 100% agreement allowing the exclusion of an artifact or ideal from the knowledge-base we share. I'm really eager to outpace the UK general elections, any ideas around what can be done to inch towards the above much appreciated! Sincerely, and some love, Gaz/schmooster/Gareth On 3 May 2017 20:00, wrote: Send cypherpunks mailing list submissions to cypherpunks@lists.cpunks.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://lists.cpunks.org/mailman/listinfo/cypherpunks or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to cypherpunks-request@lists.cpunks.org You can reach the person managing the list at cypherpunks-owner@lists.cpunks.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of cypherpunks digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: What is the value of the State? (Zenaan Harkness) 2. Re: What is the value of the State? (Zenaan Harkness) 3. Re: What is the value of the State? (Steve Kinney) 4. My piece on Barrett Brown's release yesterday (Douglas Lucas) 5. [MONEY] [WAR] [BOLIVIA] - Evo Morales "Banks control the world" (Zenaan Harkness) 6. Re: What is the value of the State? (\0xDynamite) 7. Re: What is the value of the State? (\0xDynamite) 8. Re: What is the value of the State? (\0xDynamite) 9. [CypherPunks] Event Invitation (May 23, 2017 - New York, New York) (Joshua) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 3 May 2017 10:46:48 +1000 From: Zenaan Harkness To: cypherpunks@lists.cpunks.org Subject: Re: What is the value of the State? Message-ID: <20170503004648.GB30251@x220-a02> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Tue, May 02, 2017 at 03:50:51PM -0500, \0xDynamite wrote:

That's some good bit o' history. I was really referring to the level of existing order needed to create *more* levels of order.

E.g "create tech to fly to Mars" and stuff?

I don't think it's possible to argue with that.

Humans have no problems organising themselves to create technology. Never have. But can humans organise themselves to stop collectively dominating the individual when the individuals harms no one else and damages no property? History tells us the answer to this question is generally "no, humans will almost always collectively blame externals for any and every perceived problem". ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Wed, 3 May 2017 10:40:49 +1000 From: Zenaan Harkness To: "\\0xDynamite" Cc: cypherpunks@lists.cpunks.org Subject: Re: What is the value of the State? Message-ID: <20170503004049.GA30251@x220-a02> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Mon, May 01, 2017 at 01:41:16PM +0000, \0xDynamite wrote:

...

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How does anarchy provide the high-level of organization needed to produce a car?

Humans have this funny habit of organising themselves, through conversation into action, to meet actual needs or desires. "Social animals" and all..

Seriously, the problem is not, has never been and never will be, lack of self-interest motivation to create trinkets and "wealth", sadly.

Yet, they haven't "self-organized" to come together and FIX the problem in their own self-interest, have they? So there either is an error in the analysis or there is some EXISTENTIALLY OTHER force that prevents it that is not of this world --otherwise they would come together and knock it down. But because of it's other-dimensional nature, it is completley "invisibile" to them or unfamiliar, and don't know how to approach the problem.

Yes - notwithstanding ones preferred conception of the problem, or the source of the problem, what's an approach to tackling that which we struggle to put into words and apparently affects "most people"? For starters, can we identify attributes/experiences on a personal level which verify or point to, this problem? I'm thinking confront - when one is intercepted by police for something trivial like driving 9km/hr over "the speed limit", and one decides to boldly speak to said police and firmly put them in their immoral place (in the conversation that is) - one can tend to experience certain physiological twitches, gut-based electricity flows, and or a mild heat rising through the spine. This, and an endless litany of examples I'm sure you could come up with, is adequately described by the term "confront". So when the individual is confronted, something is "going down" to use a colloquialism. Confront is therefore an actual identifier for "many things that could take books to describe". But, rather than spend books so describing and dissecting, can we take this confront, and do something useful with it? The journey of life, one's 'choices' and pathway through life are a very personal thing of course, but we have a fundamental collective problem: Most people want to not confront the bully, and are not aware that a little bit of individual action, done by many at a collective level, can shift "the problems instituted by our system/ The State etc" in very good ways. And as a side benefit, walking head first (but calmly) into those little confronts where really, truth ought be spoken to power, often leads to really enjoyable electrical flows and sensations in the body which may commonly be associated with the words happiness, joy, satisfaction and a deep and abiding peace and comfort. In this time of the bully running rampant (police, taxation, forced medical procedures, courts/legal bullying, etc) the opportunities for personal growth and personal discovery are truly abundant. :) ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Tue, 2 May 2017 21:32:56 -0400 From: Steve Kinney To: cypherpunks@lists.cpunks.org Subject: Re: What is the value of the State? Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 05/02/2017 05:39 PM, \0xDynamite wrote:

...

...

But I like the sentiment. I think the problem is more than the State. It's the pathetic infrastructure that would be an eyesore for centuries.

Bear in mind that the "State" is a model of governance, not a synonym for governance. It is a failed model, as witness the Anthropocene Era's mass extinction even in progress and the pending human population crash.

[ ... ]

The solution, then, is a META-state. A system of order bigger and better than the State.

Given that hierarchal power structures enabled and enforced by the State are the major cause of the greatest collective problems faced by the human race, the solution to the greatest collective problems faced by the human race is a bigger more powerful State! The logic behind this is self evident and inescapable. :o) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJZCTNIAAoJEECU6c5Xzmuq8X8IAIt8Kp+Zja/VWcw7Y79H+kOW 1cGoXvlJZYGRITxWifeHjwD/sw41KGdveVHdymk9JXXTvoiIzQhOx7L31FOBczat adJhjiI9fvOOD0iYocgKspmAvSKJWUSH1GA9Gl4pmm4aQYpmkqVP27K/O6PJq3CL AnBKKuEY5w4+lovgiuHtGaEby/KJHUUBy3XJQfCsdiqTAr+5jzsqyLcOuNcVW+Ic BFie4bVxNGnjUdrcc2wz8QLfGNypjZxRU83+LJ3yuBjcHP0LM8+ROV8PQkD1sVQR c/jEZnRK5LmeBj2NMVrB8xkRF16VxMRgy3i9x2a9waeftnUpuzXhWBqc8KkCezU= =b744 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Tue, 2 May 2017 19:15:53 -0700 From: Douglas Lucas To: cypherpunks@lists.cpunks.org Subject: My piece on Barrett Brown's release yesterday Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 https://thecryptosphere.com/2017/05/01/barrett-brown-released-from-prison/ ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Wed, 3 May 2017 13:11:50 +1000 From: Zenaan Harkness To: CypherPunks Subject: [MONEY] [WAR] [BOLIVIA] - Evo Morales "Banks control the world" Message-ID: <20170503031150.GC30251@x220-a02> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii More and more, a few public figures are speaking out. Some spoke too soon and tried to shift their country "unilaterally against USA/ banks' interests" like Gadhafi/Qaddafi of Lybia and without a proper unity with other nations/ other peoples. The forces/ intentions/ powers involved, are too great and too ruthless for a nation such as Lybia or Syria without support of another that would support for a "multi polar" "many powers" world, against the one world order of the Rothschild's one world banking order. Evo Morales: take note of the Saddams and the Qaddafis now gone - your "independence" must be in action with others also obtaining/ retaining their independence, and not alone. This might be stating the obvious, but the obvious weren't so obvious to Qaddafi, to Saddam and to many before them. China has rolled over to the comfort of the IMF and World Bank, although keeping a toe in with Russia and the BRICS NDB, as well as hedging with their own AIIB/Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank - but how independent they are, and how intertwined with the IMF, I don't know. Ultimately the current money interests wish to retain their power and authority, and what we witness appears to be possibly just factional fighting between the existing "moneyed powers" or authorities, what some call the "banking families". They fight ruthlessly, and completely unfairly, at every turn. So, what are the binds/ intertwining of the NDB and the AIIB? Are these entities beneficial in the long term, or are we witnessing mere factional fights and nothing more than the long term persistence of the enslavement of humanity? Can digital currencies generate "faith" in their "reality" enough to shift the enslavement (debt based) regime on this planet for any significant number of humans? Are there enough humans even considering such long term questions and considerations to be able to effect any significant shift? ** Bolivia Drops Truth Bomb: Independent Monetary Policy Is Key to National Sovereignty http://russia-insider.us9.list-manage.com/track/click?u= fa2faf7034c3c3c413cb3652f&id=34a35f6f6d&e=5110f4b440 ------------------------------------------------------------ by RI Staff on Tue, May 2, 2017 Bolivia is one of the few countries left on Earth that has the cojones to tell it like it is. We witnessed some much needed truth-telling last month when Bolivia's ambassador to the UN deconstructed Nikki Haley's word goo at the Security Council: "Now the United States believe that they are investigators, they are attorneys, judges and they are the executioners ... The unilateral actions are imperialistic actions. The USA is not interested in international law; they ignore it when it is inconvenient to them". But this was just a warm-up lap. ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Wed, 3 May 2017 13:27:05 +0000 From: "\\0xDynamite" To: jim bell Cc: CypherPunks Subject: Re: What is the value of the State? Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

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That's some good bit o' history. It was you who asked the question "Without a State, would we have electronics? Radio?"

Yes and I was being serious. I hadn't encounted that history before.

...

I was really referring to the level of existing order needed to create *more* levels of order. That sounds like gobbledygook to me. What do you mean by this? What is a "level of order"?

It's not gobbledygook at all. Just as single-cellular life gave rise to multi-cellular life, a new LEVEL of order was made beyond the cell. In this sense, you could say all the problems that we've been having with "the State" are birthing pains bringing about the solutions to solve this endless conflict at the current level. Einstein was credited with saying "You can't solve the existing problems at the same level which created them" (or something like that). It could surmised that no amount of "self-oganization" could create that transformation seen in biology -- it had to be a GOVERNOR of some kind. By which I intimate that leadership, with a greater view of it all, can generate better, meaningful, and virtuous levels of order and that it HAD to happen at some point in the past, in order to give rise to the mammalian life which we cherish..

And why do you (apparently) think that government is somehow necessary (or even desireable) to act as a driver of technology. I think the opposite is true.

It's not that government is the driver, it is simply a large force that can assemble huge amounts of resources and human effort to solve problems. You would never get equivalent levels of order in an anarchic situation. It would take some extreme urgency bording on panic to assemble such forces (because anarchists don't want to join someone else's causes, right?).

...

I don't think it's possible to argue with that. Until we actually UNDERSTAND what you meant, how can someone argue?

...

But I like the sentiment. I think the problem is more than the State.

What problem?

The problem that is often simply labled "the State." \0x ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Wed, 3 May 2017 13:29:35 +0000 From: "\\0xDynamite" To: Zenaan Harkness Cc: cypherpunks@lists.cpunks.org Subject: Re: What is the value of the State? Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

...

Yet, they haven't "self-organized" to come together and FIX the problem in their own self-interest, have they? So there either is an error in the analysis or there is some EXISTENTIALLY OTHER force that prevents it that is not of this world --otherwise they would come together and knock it down. But because of it's other-dimensional nature, it is completley "invisibile" to them or unfamiliar, and don't know how to approach the problem.

Yes - notwithstanding ones preferred conception of the problem, or the source of the problem, what's an approach to tackling that which we struggle to put into words and apparently affects "most people"?

For starters, can we identify attributes/experiences on a personal level which verify or point to, this problem? I'm thinking confront - when one is intercepted by police for something trivial like driving 9km/hr over "the speed limit", and one decides to boldly speak to said police and firmly put them in their immoral place (in the conversation that is) - one can tend to experience certain physiological twitches, gut-based electricity flows, and or a mild heat rising through the spine.

The solution to this challenge is to be a better Statist than they are. That is, to know your law better, which (fortunately becuase of the IQ level of most cops) isn't that hard. Once you know your rigths and go through the hard knocks of jail time, you start to rise above it. That's how and why I've written HACK THE LAW. \0x ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Wed, 3 May 2017 15:11:32 +0000 From: "\\0xDynamite" To: juan Cc: cypherpunks@lists.cpunks.org Subject: Re: What is the value of the State? Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

...

The solution, then, is a META-state. A system of order bigger and better than the State.

Yes. How could we have missed such an obvious solution.

Easy tiger. Hopefully, the other posts clarify. Obviously the State sucks, but it sucks because of THE PEOPLE, don't forget that. And what is going to remain after the fall of the State? THE PEOPLE.

What's needed is a META-STATE. with JESUS AS PRESIDENT and the raving lunatic marko dynamite as VICE-PRESIDENT.

Yer getting a little fringe here. Take a chill pill, Dave.

And no, there's no need for 'congress' cause the 'laws' have all already been written and they are in THE BIBLE.

You're on a roll!

Last but not leat, the META-STATE will provide FREE homeopatic mierdicine.

Please, holistic medicine is already (relatively) FREE (because of the benefits it provides to all). Holistically! Sing with me. \0x ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Wed, 03 May 2017 11:57:02 -0400 From: Joshua To: CypherPunks Subject: [CypherPunks] Event Invitation (May 23, 2017 - New York, New York) Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" If you're interested in Bitcoin and are also interested in building out independent economic systems powered by artificial intelligence or whatever then you should come. Free food, drinks, and pleasant conversation. https://www.eventbrite.com/e/social-and-fireside-chat- sponsored-by-zen-tickets-34280315346 movrcx -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJZCf08AAoJEIR3tCCHdM/tpFcP/R5bvD53v9fIio1xTAPorLlb k5wXewaufWl6CYFnxIqPXiqTKNibdfS3b9kk2o/pByys1JmXsvbtCY2+fj2ApM3e 3DL57YTZPETVgFpSKI6V8l5SXljQKSlyGQTHoI4f6Tk3dvHoDABc2AkC3rxQbM1k 6AwSaWtD1iz/go4+SyUonL3M/ROCLz8hQNyJOfUpoUoqjUzuaIjd64HPUHbgSYpE PcKzK+M0qCCtBHGQVgKQsAZov14aakNJVf7KR44HzCDBhB7fxin0TMQcHcTxvkdN Ftj6nJgW9MBY0M9CP8LxNIvHLG+mqK0nNhm5eKHt3JScLgR0F62r8GVWzG+NrTZT adVrIpKMhLQFRPfR7r0cu5YqdC/aLIS10nxFgP3X1yn3EEi3o6RXwgbQuh6W38y1 JyIKik1b2FCza2LVbZpXxxm8Rr7fLv/sa0jX5iGA/5w4yyfH/uUG/pjcmpWHG9iq E8aY6aoxusu+HWwc+IeiK8fR0l2DxKk3m0SPVYLvQPQ2J4DM7BHEGtDFi5+eih/w vYVUyK+GN8kULtgxD/vNGmtK8qz9twuCdhcAWwWt14kvXfHeRohcteJrmeu4LuV1 lt2QnF8rastXcPx+zMjsx2dugenl/uZQ//nThkMl+UbBTVicunDk+q+mTlGwfnal CmAOcKXqTCinYQ8WjTsB =rVwR -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----