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Today's Topics:
1. Re: What is the value of the State? (Zenaan Harkness)
2. Re: What is the value of the State? (Zenaan Harkness)
3. Re: What is the value of the State? (Steve Kinney)
4. My piece on Barrett Brown's release yesterday (Douglas Lucas)
5. [MONEY] [WAR] [BOLIVIA] - Evo Morales "Banks control the
world" (Zenaan Harkness)
6. Re: What is the value of the State? (\0xDynamite)
7. Re: What is the value of the State? (\0xDynamite)
8. Re: What is the value of the State? (\0xDynamite)
9. [CypherPunks] Event Invitation (May 23, 2017 - New York, New
York) (Joshua)
------------------------------------------------------------ ----------
Message: 1
Date: Wed, 3 May 2017 10:46:48 +1000
From: Zenaan Harkness <zen@freedbms.net>
To: cypherpunks@lists.cpunks.org
Subject: Re: What is the value of the State?
Message-ID: <20170503004648.GB30251@x220-a02>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
On Tue, May 02, 2017 at 03:50:51PM -0500, \0xDynamite wrote:
> That's some good bit o' history. I was really referring to the level
> of existing order needed to create *more* levels of order.
E.g "create tech to fly to Mars" and stuff?
> I don't
> think it's possible to argue with that.
Humans have no problems organising themselves to create technology.
Never have.
But can humans organise themselves to stop collectively dominating
the individual when the individuals harms no one else and damages no
property?
History tells us the answer to this question is generally "no, humans
will almost always collectively blame externals for any and every
perceived problem".
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Wed, 3 May 2017 10:40:49 +1000
From: Zenaan Harkness <zen@freedbms.net>
To: "\\0xDynamite" <dreamingforward@gmail.com>
Cc: cypherpunks@lists.cpunks.org
Subject: Re: What is the value of the State?
Message-ID: <20170503004049.GA30251@x220-a02>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
On Mon, May 01, 2017 at 01:41:16PM +0000, \0xDynamite wrote:
> >> How does anarchy provide the high-level of organization needed to
> >> produce a car?
> >
> > Humans have this funny habit of organising themselves, through
> > conversation into action, to meet actual needs or desires. "Social
> > animals" and all..
> >
> > Seriously, the problem is not, has never been and never will be, lack
> > of self-interest motivation to create trinkets and "wealth", sadly.
>
> Yet, they haven't "self-organized" to come together and FIX the
> problem in their own self-interest, have they? So there either is an
> error in the analysis or there is some EXISTENTIALLY OTHER force that
> prevents it that is not of this world --otherwise they would come
> together and knock it down. But because of it's other-dimensional
> nature, it is completley "invisibile" to them or unfamiliar, and don't
> know how to approach the problem.
Yes - notwithstanding ones preferred conception of the problem, or
the source of the problem, what's an approach to tackling that which
we struggle to put into words and apparently affects "most people"?
For starters, can we identify attributes/experiences on a personal
level which verify or point to, this problem? I'm thinking confront -
when one is intercepted by police for something trivial like driving
9km/hr over "the speed limit", and one decides to boldly speak to
said police and firmly put them in their immoral place (in the
conversation that is) - one can tend to experience certain
physiological twitches, gut-based electricity flows, and or a mild
heat rising through the spine.
This, and an endless litany of examples I'm sure you could come up
with, is adequately described by the term "confront".
So when the individual is confronted, something is "going down" to
use a colloquialism.
Confront is therefore an actual identifier for "many things that
could take books to describe".
But, rather than spend books so describing and dissecting, can we
take this confront, and do something useful with it?
The journey of life, one's 'choices' and pathway through life are a
very personal thing of course, but we have a fundamental collective
problem:
Most people want to not confront the bully, and are not aware
that a little bit of individual action, done by many at a
collective level, can shift "the problems instituted by our system/
The State etc" in very good ways.
And as a side benefit, walking head first (but calmly) into those
little confronts where really, truth ought be spoken to power,
often leads to really enjoyable electrical flows and sensations in
the body which may commonly be associated with the words happiness,
joy, satisfaction and a deep and abiding peace and comfort.
In this time of the bully running rampant (police, taxation, forced
medical procedures, courts/legal bullying, etc) the opportunities for
personal growth and personal discovery are truly abundant.
:)
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Tue, 2 May 2017 21:32:56 -0400
From: Steve Kinney <admin@pilobilus.net>
To: cypherpunks@lists.cpunks.org
Subject: Re: What is the value of the State?
Message-ID: <a3747f71-a757-1eee-d0d2-31eb3e9b121e@pilobilus.net >
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
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On 05/02/2017 05:39 PM, \0xDynamite wrote:
>>> But I like the sentiment. I think the problem is more than
>>> the State. It's the pathetic infrastructure that would be an
>>> eyesore for centuries.
>>
>> Bear in mind that the "State" is a model of governance, not a
>> synonym for governance. It is a failed model, as witness the
>> Anthropocene Era's mass extinction even in progress and the
>> pending human population crash.
[ ... ]
> The solution, then, is a META-state. A system of order bigger
> and better than the State.
Given that hierarchal power structures enabled and enforced by the
State are the major cause of the greatest collective problems faced by
the human race, the solution to the greatest collective problems faced
by the human race is a bigger more powerful State!
The logic behind this is self evident and inescapable.
:o)
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------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Tue, 2 May 2017 19:15:53 -0700
From: Douglas Lucas <dal@riseup.net>
To: cypherpunks@lists.cpunks.org
Subject: My piece on Barrett Brown's release yesterday
Message-ID: <cd0e717a-8379-5805-1f76-2e821a199bf5@riseup.net >
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
https://thecryptosphere.com/2017/05/01/barrett-brown- released-from-prison/
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Wed, 3 May 2017 13:11:50 +1000
From: Zenaan Harkness <zen@freedbms.net>
To: CypherPunks <cypherpunks@lists.cpunks.org>
Subject: [MONEY] [WAR] [BOLIVIA] - Evo Morales "Banks control the
world"
Message-ID: <20170503031150.GC30251@x220-a02>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
More and more, a few public figures are speaking out. Some spoke
too soon and tried to shift their country "unilaterally against USA/
banks' interests" like Gadhafi/Qaddafi of Lybia and without a proper
unity with other nations/ other peoples.
The forces/ intentions/ powers involved, are too great and too
ruthless for a nation such as Lybia or Syria without support of
another that would support for a "multi polar" "many powers" world,
against the one world order of the Rothschild's one world banking
order.
Evo Morales: take note of the Saddams and the Qaddafis now gone -
your "independence" must be in action with others also obtaining/
retaining their independence, and not alone. This might be stating
the obvious, but the obvious weren't so obvious to Qaddafi, to Saddam
and to many before them.
China has rolled over to the comfort of the IMF and World Bank,
although keeping a toe in with Russia and the BRICS NDB, as well as
hedging with their own AIIB/Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank -
but how independent they are, and how intertwined with the IMF, I
don't know.
Ultimately the current money interests wish to retain their power and
authority, and what we witness appears to be possibly just factional
fighting between the existing "moneyed powers" or authorities, what
some call the "banking families". They fight ruthlessly, and
completely unfairly, at every turn.
So, what are the binds/ intertwining of the NDB and the AIIB?
Are these entities beneficial in the long term, or are we witnessing
mere factional fights and nothing more than the long term persistence
of the enslavement of humanity?
Can digital currencies generate "faith" in their "reality" enough to
shift the enslavement (debt based) regime on this planet for any
significant number of humans?
Are there enough humans even considering such long term questions and
considerations to be able to effect any significant shift?
** Bolivia Drops Truth Bomb: Independent Monetary Policy Is Key to
National Sovereignty
http://russia-insider.us9.list-manage.com/track/click?u= fa2faf7034c3c3c413cb3652f&id= 34a35f6f6d&e=5110f4b440
------------------------------------------------------------
by RI Staff on Tue, May 2, 2017
Bolivia is one of the few countries left on Earth that has the
cojones to tell it like it is. We witnessed some much needed
truth-telling last month when Bolivia's ambassador to the UN
deconstructed Nikki Haley's word goo at the Security Council: "Now
the United States believe that they are investigators, they are
attorneys, judges and they are the executioners ... The unilateral
actions are imperialistic actions. The USA is not interested in
international law; they ignore it when it is inconvenient to them".
But this was just a warm-up lap.
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Wed, 3 May 2017 13:27:05 +0000
From: "\\0xDynamite" <dreamingforward@gmail.com>
To: jim bell <jdb10987@yahoo.com>
Cc: CypherPunks <cypherpunks@lists.cpunks.org>
Subject: Re: What is the value of the State?
Message-ID:
<CAMjeLr-s_7ZUzqDW6gbXZNCqxt=cRa_1J+mbghRjbxRKdSb4=Q@mail. gmail.com >
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>>That's some good bit o' history.
> It was you who asked the question "Without a State, would we have
> electronics? Radio?"
Yes and I was being serious. I hadn't encounted that history before.
>> I was really referring to the level
> of existing order needed to create *more* levels of order.
> That sounds like gobbledygook to me. What do you mean by this? What is a
> "level of order"?
It's not gobbledygook at all. Just as single-cellular life gave rise
to multi-cellular life, a new LEVEL of order was made beyond the cell.
In this sense, you could say all the problems that we've been having
with "the State" are birthing pains bringing about the solutions to
solve this endless conflict at the current level.
Einstein was credited with saying "You can't solve the existing
problems at the same level which created them" (or something like
that).
It could surmised that no amount of "self-oganization" could create
that transformation seen in biology -- it had to be a GOVERNOR of some
kind. By which I intimate that leadership, with a greater view of it
all, can generate better, meaningful, and virtuous levels of order and
that it HAD to happen at some point in the past, in order to give rise
to the mammalian life which we cherish..
> And why do you (apparently) think that government is
> somehow necessary (or even desireable) to act as a driver of technology. I
> think the opposite is true.
It's not that government is the driver, it is simply a large force
that can assemble huge amounts of resources and human effort to solve
problems. You would never get equivalent levels of order in an
anarchic situation. It would take some extreme urgency bording on
panic to assemble such forces (because anarchists don't want to join
someone else's causes, right?).
>> I don't
> think it's possible to argue with that.
> Until we actually UNDERSTAND what you meant, how can someone argue?
>
>>But I like the sentiment. I think the problem is more than the State.
> What problem?
The problem that is often simply labled "the State."
\0x
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Wed, 3 May 2017 13:29:35 +0000
From: "\\0xDynamite" <dreamingforward@gmail.com>
To: Zenaan Harkness <zen@freedbms.net>
Cc: cypherpunks@lists.cpunks.org
Subject: Re: What is the value of the State?
Message-ID:
<CAMjeLr8f22Oe2ouDBxMDnr_JhLsYq=nV0-W0FHsPCBYWLe=Wsw@ mail.gmail.com >
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>> Yet, they haven't "self-organized" to come together and FIX the
>> problem in their own self-interest, have they? So there either is an
>> error in the analysis or there is some EXISTENTIALLY OTHER force that
>> prevents it that is not of this world --otherwise they would come
>> together and knock it down. But because of it's other-dimensional
>> nature, it is completley "invisibile" to them or unfamiliar, and don't
>> know how to approach the problem.
>
> Yes - notwithstanding ones preferred conception of the problem, or
> the source of the problem, what's an approach to tackling that which
> we struggle to put into words and apparently affects "most people"?
>
> For starters, can we identify attributes/experiences on a personal
> level which verify or point to, this problem? I'm thinking confront -
> when one is intercepted by police for something trivial like driving
> 9km/hr over "the speed limit", and one decides to boldly speak to
> said police and firmly put them in their immoral place (in the
> conversation that is) - one can tend to experience certain
> physiological twitches, gut-based electricity flows, and or a mild
> heat rising through the spine.
The solution to this challenge is to be a better Statist than they
are. That is, to know your law better, which (fortunately becuase of
the IQ level of most cops) isn't that hard. Once you know your rigths
and go through the hard knocks of jail time, you start to rise above
it. That's how and why I've written HACK THE LAW.
\0x
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Wed, 3 May 2017 15:11:32 +0000
From: "\\0xDynamite" <dreamingforward@gmail.com>
To: juan <juan.g71@gmail.com>
Cc: cypherpunks@lists.cpunks.org
Subject: Re: What is the value of the State?
Message-ID:
<CAMjeLr_bnOa_WTN0mEVbqtewvPjtEjiassoOn63n62 >i-Te-t3w@mail.gmail.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>> The solution, then, is a META-state. A system of order bigger and
>> better than the State.
>
> Yes. How could we have missed such an obvious solution.
Easy tiger. Hopefully, the other posts clarify. Obviously the State
sucks, but it sucks because of THE PEOPLE, don't forget that. And
what is going to remain after the fall of the State? THE PEOPLE.
> What's needed is a META-STATE. with JESUS AS PRESIDENT and the
> raving lunatic marko dynamite as VICE-PRESIDENT.
Yer getting a little fringe here. Take a chill pill, Dave.
> And no, there's no need for 'congress' cause the 'laws' have
> all already been written and they are in THE BIBLE.
You're on a roll!
> Last but not leat, the META-STATE will provide FREE homeopatic
> mierdicine.
Please, holistic medicine is already (relatively) FREE (because of the
benefits it provides to all). Holistically! Sing with me.
\0x
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Wed, 03 May 2017 11:57:02 -0400
From: Joshua <joshua2014@protonmail.ch>
To: CypherPunks <cypherpunks@lists.cpunks.org>
Subject: [CypherPunks] Event Invitation (May 23, 2017 - New York, New
York)
Message-ID:
<pVl3Y6I_cmhnZuR2Alu3WyDQGmebJIu074sso7 _ GlMTEDWojLp7qsm9p3bf4qOVuxwscZ CwsD4- NpVHTYxl1YdSsIYkxqgGLQiYspHJht Tk=@protonmail.ch>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
If you're interested in Bitcoin and are also interested in building out independent economic systems powered by artificial intelligence or whatever then you should come.
Free food, drinks, and pleasant conversation.
https://www.eventbrite.com/e/social-and-fireside-chat- sponsored-by-zen-tickets- 34280315346
movrcx
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