On Sun, 3 Nov 2019 13:32:19 +1100 Zenaan Harkness wrote:

Folks around here have been trying REALLY hard to stay pleasant, and respectful, and constructive, towards you specifically.

This includes everyone you rail against - me, Rayzer, Busby etc.

what the fuck are you talking about - the only thing US military agent tazer has done is trolling and show that he is a completely retarded fucktard by claiming "the whole archive is missing" when it ovbviously isn't. it is pretty obvious that the archive provided by ryan lackey, US MILITARY CONTRACTOR IN IRAQ, has been tampered with.

On Sun, 3 Nov 2019 14:30:54 +1100 Zenaan Harkness wrote:

Frankly, although Jim was not able to hear that part of Rayzer's attempt to communicate with him, that's at least a part of what may be read into Rayzer's words - some good intentions.

are you drunk or something? The only thing tazer is doing is trolling, and calling Jim 'paranoid'.

...

it is pretty obvious that the archive provided by ryan lackey, US MILITARY CONTRACTOR IN IRAQ, has been tampered with.

Of course this may well be the case.

Nothing I've said suggests otherwise.

You can either agree with the nonsense tazer spewed, or with the fact that the archives have been tampered with. Not both.

Jim fell into threats, against someone who at least on a superficial reading of his (Busby's) words, was attempting to assist Jim's investigation.

what THREATS?

I am suggesting that Jim ought tone it down, for Jim's own benefit.

Threats are ugly. They are also demeaning to the one making the threats and expose intolerance, anger and possible intentions unspoken.

Threats bring the attention of the law, and possibly of psych ward "infirmaries", and so it may be in Jim's interest to tone down in regard to threatening folks.

And in this regard, Razer is also bang on topic!

....

On Saturday, November 2, 2019, 07:32:44 PM PDT, Zenaan Harkness wrote: On Sat, Nov 02, 2019 at 10:31:09PM +0000, jim bell wrote:

No, Mr. Busby, there is a Santa Claus. Dear Mr. Busby, On the Cypherpunks Archive web page,  https://cryptoanarchy.wiki/blog/2018/07/05/the-cypherpunks-mailing-list-arch...   , you said:

Are you getting excited now, Mr. Busby?  It's only going to get more "real" from here on in.  "Fasten your seat belts, it's going to be a bumpy night."                     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vEEh0GF_C8                           Jim Bell

Jim, and I say this with care and concern - you're off the reservation.

But, I notice you don't explain how.  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truism       First, you merely use the pronoun "things".  Couldn't you have been more specific?  And "everything"?  A truism:  Does anybody claim humans can see "everything"?  Not that I'm aware of.  So, it sure sounds like you are engaging in a 'strawman'.  So what did you actually mean?  You used words, which fortunately are available in great quantity with today's word-processors, but your constructions don't mean anything identifiable.

Sometimes others see things that we don't see. Yet another truism!

There are known reasons that we fail to see things. Yet another truism!   (I'm waiting for you to actually say something useful.  Maybe you'll eventually get there?)

We fail to see things usually about ourselves, but also in the world, or generally." Yet another truism.

There are specific and well studied reasons why we humans sometimes don't see things. Yet another truism.

These reasons why we don't see things are closely related to the classical human "psychological" failings (passions of the mind, seven deadly sins etc): A bit more involved, but still a truism.  Notice that if the above sentence were split from the whole, and handed to a person of ordinary intelligence, he wouldn't be able to figure out where in this (or any!) discussion it came from.  There is no context, and nothing links it to a coherent thought.  It could have been written 10 years ago, for a different conversation with somebody else, or no conversation at all, and today sprinked into his commentary the way people sprinkle salt into food,

  >anger   impatience   pride   lust   greed   slothfulness/ laziness   envy/ jealousy   vanity   etc Yes?!?

I have been "pulled up" in my thinking and words many times - including by folks on this here mailing list - thus my notable short supply of brown paper bags to hand out. It's obvious your words are all from the English language, and they fit together in sentences, but there is still something missing.

Anger is a great driver for some people, especially when great wrongs have been done to them, either in childhood, and/ or as an adult. How does that apply to anything?

Anger can feel empowering, and it can empower us to commit evil against others, to engage in atrocities in the (possibly unseen) hope to release the angry feelz inside us that we feel. How does that apply to anything?

Anger is also one of the foundation causes for us to "not see the obvious", even when others may very clearly name for us (what to them is) the obvious point we're missing. How does that apply to anything?

Jim - it's time for you to listen up!

You could insert that sentence virtually anywhere, in a comment directed to anybody who happened to be named "Jim".  Why is it HERE?

This is really important.

That's another very short sentence that could go anywhere and mean equally little.  HOW is WHAT "important"???

Even though some of the following you may not agree with! Yet another sentence that could go anywhere.  Maybe you have a machine, like a BINGO machine, with little balls that you've written sentences on.  Pop the machine, get a random ball, copy down what its sentence said.  Repeat ad nauseum.  Maybe in the end you will create a seeminly-credible conversation.   Remember that "infinite number of monkeys and an infinite number of typewriters" writing Hamlet"?

Folks around here have been trying REALLY hard to stay pleasant, and respectful, and constructive, towards you specifically.

Actually, there seem to be very few people around here.  Where has everybody gone?

This includes everyone you rail against - me, Rayzer, Busby etc. Where do you get the idea that I "rail against" this Busby?  He hasn't even appeared, and as far as I know, he hasn't done anything wrong.  It seems to me that he appears to have been given "lemons" (a database missing a lot) and made "lemonade" (an archive that, likewise, contains many omissions.)   But, so far we don't have any indication that Busby has done anything less than a good job.  He actually stated, on his website, that he suspected some messages were missing.  True, in spades.  What more do you expect him to do?  And why are you saying I'm "railing against" him?   I'm using a bit of old-fashioned humor to invite him into the conversation, but Busby isn't the target of it.  I'm sorta laughing at the fact we have a mystery here, one that Busby will presumably help us deal with.   Again, where do you get that "rail against" thingy?

Not seeing when people are going OUT OF THEIR WAY to help you, is a big warning sign to us, that you are unblanced (to say the least).

Who is "going out of their way" to help me.  Some people are participating in a conversation, not nearly enough of them, unfortunately.  Razor is being a troll.  You too.   Who do you believe, specifically, has gone "out of his way" to help?  Explain what these people have done which amounts to "going out of his way"?    (Okay, at least one has, with some good research.)  > More anger, will not solve your problems! What "anger' are you talking about?  Generally, I think the whole situation could be labelled as humorous, if it wasn't potentially so serious,.

You might try to identify within yourself and give up, as quickly as you are capable, a little bit of that pride and certainty you have!

Another vague comment, what are you saying?  Your words are English language, but you are not constructing a thought in any identifiable context.  Put that sentence back into your 'BINGO Magic Sentence machine":  You might need it later.  

Then also give up some anger (all of it ideally).

Maybe you ought to spend more time making up thoughts which are actually connected to external realities?  Just about everything you are saying in this comment (the sentencnes, I mean)  is in the form of a random snippet that, if separated from the whole, could not later be re-placed based on the its content and other sentences still located on the page.   That is an indication that it isn't a product of intelligent thought.  

Folks round here want to make the world a better place 

- you may not see that, Yes, another truism.  >and we often (vehemently) disagree amongst ourselves on

But we share one thing in common - we want to see a better world, we want to figure out how to make a better world, how to fix some of the

That sounds like another truism.   plenty of shit! So what else is new?  Somebody on CP could have written that in 1995, or long before.   problems we see, we know, we suffer. Yet another truism.   How does that seemingly-random thought apply to anything we've said here recently?

Good luck,

Other than the fact that this string kinda-sorta looks like it should be placed at the end of a comment, you could probably put it anywhere and nobody would notice the mis-placement.   That observation is a clue that your commentary could be a seemingly random series of what I will call "sentence-lets".   Can't you do better than that?  Joseph Weizenbaum's "Doctor", "Eliza", and "Parry" had more independent thought in their output than you have so far.   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Weizenbaum   Note for the young:  Weizenbaum was a computer science professor at MIT (I had one class with him, in ordinary programming, I think maybe PL/1, not any sort of AI) who was perhaps most famous for writing a series of relatively simple programs to seemingly participate in human conversations.  While it was actually merely  simple manipulation of words, ordinary people who were not 'in the know' often misinterpreted these comments as if they were somehow containing and reflecting artificially intelligent thought. (hence, he was associated with early AI).  As I recall, Weizenbaum was distressed that people over-interpreted the meaning of the output of these programs.  People got the false idea that it must be easy to simulate human thought.From the Wikipedia article:    "Weizenbaum was shocked that his program was taken seriously by many users, who would open their hearts to it. Famously, when observing his secretary using the software - who was aware that it was a simulation - she asked Weizenbaum: "would you mind leaving the room please?".[4]

I hear you.

We just need more people to come forward with their own archives of the 90s
so we can merge them. That's the most sensible solution (and the only one I
can think of).

Currently, the only game in town seems to be Ryan Lackey's archive. I'm
very keen to get hold of other archives of the period that other people may
have (and would be even in the absence of anything that suggests foul
play), so our goals are aligned here.



On Mon, 4 Nov 2019 at 23:16, jim bell  wrote:

> Thank you for your reply, I will answer inline:  Jim Bell
>
> On Monday, November 4, 2019, 01:17:58 PM PST, Tom Busby 
> wrote:
>
>
> >Hi to all in general and Jim in particular,
>
> >I don't check the list all that often at the moment, I decided to do a
> keyword search after I saw your disqus comment. It's good to hear from you,
> I'm a fan of Assassination Politics. It's a thought provoking work
> describing a dangerous idea of the kind that has always fascinated me :)
>
> >I'll repeat what I said in my reply on the page:
>
> >
> https://cryptoanarchy.wiki/blog/2018/07/05/the-cypherpunks-mailing-list-archives-must-be-preserved.html
> 
>
> >Currently. Yes, the archive is basically just a clone of what's in the
> raw files hosted on Ryan Lackey's venona site. I strongly, strongly suspect
> that this has large amounts of missing data due to how quiet some periods
> are, and also it ends in early 1999 anyway (with those emails tacked on to
> the end of the 1998 archive).
>
>
> While that would be an entirely plausible possibility in the general case,
> and over many years, I can assure you that the then-current almost-total
> data void from February 14 1995 through about mid-July 1995 have nothing at
> all to do with that idea.   I was there at least during March 1995 through
> nearly half of 1997.     My very existence, and that of references to "AP"
> and "Assassination Politics", was almost perfectly erased...except that it
> wasnt, in the 1996 archive.   Even when emails were listed July
> 1995-December 1995, I was seemingly almost entirely 'erased',  Even people
> today on CP see that the list must have been "sanitized" to within an inch
> of its life.
>
>
> >I was provided with a (apparently) roughly complete archive for 2000 to
> 2016. This is hosted here currently:
>
> cryptoanarchywiki/2000-to-2016-raw-cypherpunks-archive
> 
>
>
>
> >I had strong ambitions of trying to index and merge all of the archives I
> could get my hands on, but this is more challenging than you might think.
> Determining which two emails are the same is very difficult when they
> sometimes contain encoding errors, extra whitespace, differing text for
> expressing the time of emails, etc (making hashing an infeasible way of
> comparing them). I've also had an enormous amount of other commitments that
> have preventing me working on this archive as much as I'd like (or at all
> really, if I'm honest) over the past year.
>
>
> Well, I think finding out what happened to the data archived into the 1995
> will be much simpler than re-generating the full, correct archive. And no
> doubt this recently-discovered fraud will induce many more people to be
> interested in fixing the archive.  So, you shouldn't worry that you will be
> faced with an ocean of work.
>
>
>
> >The site is also a Jekyll-generated static site hosted on github. The
> sheer number of pages is really approaching the limit of what's possible
> with this approach. It takes over an hour to build the site currently.
> Adding the 2000-2016 archive would be totally unworkable in this way. I
> also want to index the messages in ElasticSearch or similar. The lack of a
> search function is something that I feel is sorely lacking.
>
> >Sadly, for this reason, my attempts to synthesise all the available
> incomplete archives of messages from this era have stalled :( it's there at
> the back of my mind though, so I haven't lost the will to work on it, just
> the time.
>
>
> Okay, I think things will change dramatically, and you will get help on
> this project, I am sure,
>
>
> >I hear your concerns about large numbers of missing emails, and if anyone
> reading this has their own copies of the 1990s archives, I'd love to have
> them. I can't make any promises about when I'll be able to work on
> processing them, but rest assured I will take great care of those archive
> files so that, should I fail to complete this task myself, those archives
> will be collected together for someone else to attempt to finish the task.]
>
> Understand my opinion that "finishing the archive", while remaining a
> worthy goal, should not be considered the highest priority now,   As I said
> quite recently, you don't mow the grass when your house is burning down.
> I think this needs to be extremely well-publicized, to attract the
> attention of Cypherpunks who frequented the list in the mid-1995s.  We have
> their names, probably most of them, as they remain (in part?) in the
> archive.  And most of their subsequent email addresses probably appear in
> later archive years.   They may have archives of their own; now, they may
> have no idea that this old data is needed.
>
>
> >Whether or not those archives have willful deletions or modifications to
> the data, I've no idea, to be honest.
>
>
> Well, having examined and scanned the archive for 1995, I _do_ have an
> idea.  Due to the essentially complete absence of an extremely peculiar
> pattern of data strings, such as "Jim Bell", "jimbell@pacifier.com",
> "ap", and "assassination politics", yet a few examples of ' ap ' in about
> 15 examples but only where it doesn't mean "assassination politics"  " ap"
> meaning Associated Press, "killer ap",   all this is an extremely specific
> 'fingerprint' pointing to not merely an automatic search-and-replace, but
> in fact a careful and precise manipulation of the data.
> I am reminded of a quotation that I heard about 45 years ago, by Henry
> David Thoreau:
> https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/125881-it-s-circumstantial-evidence-like-finding-a-trout-in-the-milk
>
>
>             “It's circumstantial evidence, like finding a trout in the
> milk.”
>
> "I would rely on others to notice and report things that seem strange."
>
> But I'm sure you understand that unless such a person possesses specific
> knowledge about what happened during 1995 on the CP list, he is very
> unlikely to spontaneously notice the meaning behind the data as it now
> appears to be.  Viewed in complete isolation, the virtually-complete data
> absence from February 14 to mid-July 1995 might 'look like" a simple
> omission of data, but the later absence of the strings above from
> July-December 1995 are far more unambiguous.  Put simply, everybody who
> sees what is pointed out as the outcome will agree there must have been an
> amazing fraud perpetrated.  I again express my well-educated opinion that
> the fraudster(s) very likely didn't actually forge any messages; rather
> he/they simply deleted threads and messages that contained references to
> me, my AP essay, and my then-current email address.  The pattern is quite
> clear,.
>
>  "Even then I'm not sure what to do about it."
>
> While it could be laughingly said that _I_, too, am not "sure" what to do
> about it, in extreme detail, I am quite confident that this is what
> constitutes approximately an "emergency".  Let's see if anybody disagrees,
> I have already made many suggestions.
>
>
>  >When coming across two distinct versions of what appear to be the same
> message, I'd probably just list both. That's all I can do really. This
> project appears to be complex in a lot of ways that weren't obvious at the
> start... which is a familiar story to anyone who sets out to solve a
> problem I guess :)
>
> Well, now you know enough about the truth that you can entirely change
> your point of view about this matter.   More eyes need to be brought in to
> this matter, including ones who have actual memories of the CP events of
> 1995.
>
>
> Tom
>
> On Sat, 2 Nov 2019 at 23:31, jim bell  wrote:
>
> No, Mr. Busby, there is a Santa Claus.
>
> Dear Mr. Busby,
>
> On the Cypherpunks Archive web page,  The Cypherpunks Mailing List
> archives must be preserved
> 
>
> The Cypherpunks Mailing List archives must be preserved
>
> cryptoanarchy.wiki
>
> Arise, you have nothing to lose but your barbed wire fences!
>
> 
>
>
>    , you said:
>
> "I have an uneasy feeling that many of the posts from this era may
> already be irrecoverably lost. If this is true it would be a great shame
> for future generations who want to learn about this vital period of
> internet history and development. There is an argument that perhaps the
> list participants would like their privacy preserved, however I don’t think
> it is a strong one. An open-subscription mailing list is ultimately a
> public forum. Posting to it is an act of placing information into the
> public domain."
>
> No, Mr. Busby, you need not worry about that specific possibility.   There
> were clearly hundreds of people who subscribed to the CP email list, even
> as early as mid 1995.  Each of them regularly received copies of posted CP
> emails, which were presumably reliably stored onto their computers' hard
> drives, possibly floppy disks, and eventually possibly backup tapes. Those
> hard drives were occasionally retired, but when that happened many of them
> were probably put on shelves to gather dust.  Remember, at the moment they
> were retired, they were not considered totally worthless.  And shelves are
> remarkable things:  If you put something on them, perhaps in a box, that
> object generally does not simply disappear after years or even decades.
> So there was no immediate reason to throw those hard drives away, even if
> the potential value of that hardware gradually dropped.  So, in many cases,
> it can be expected that such hardware remains and is ultimately
> retrievable,
>
> (Only idiots like Razer think otherwise, apparently.)
>
> Does anybody believe that EACH AND EVERY copy of ANY specific CP email was
> totally erased, everywhere around the world it happened to be.  Including,
> for instance, the NSA and other government TLA's?    How foolish!
>
>   But what you need to do, immediately, is to worry about a far more
> omnous reality, one that I have discovered within the last 3+ days.   I was
> a heavy participant in the Cypherpunks list from perhaps March 1995
> onwards, and for a couple of years.  And, quite unlike most of the
> now-current subscribers, the large majority of whom were not on the CP list
> in 1995, I can actually REMEMBER the general events of that time frame.
>  Which is one of the main reasons I have a powerful advantage as I studied
> a specific kind of message and text that is, or at least SHOULD BE, in the
> Cypherpunks archive for 1995.
>
> You, sorting through a veritable ocean of look-sorta-alike data, are very
> unlikely to spontaneously notice what data happens to be "missing".  If you
> go into a forest, how can you notice one missing tree, or a dozen?  (Yes, a
> sawed-off stump remains an excellent clue.)  I, however, knowing that my
> name  (jim bell) and my old email adddress (jimbell@pacifier.com), and
> references to 'assassination politics' and 'AP' should be heavily present,
> have a huge advantage.  If they aren't (still) there, I will notice it.
> And they aren't. And I did.  You presumably don't notice it, at least not
> until I explain what should be present, yet isn't present.  Quite
> understandable.  But now you know.
>
> I suggest that you read my comments for the last 3 or so days on CP.   In
> some of them, I point out that the text string 'jim bell' does not seem to
> be present in the 1995 archive you are maintaining, nor in the Venona file
> for that year.  And the text string 'AP', in the limited meaning of the
> name of my 1995 essay, "Assassination Politics", which soon enough the vast
> majority of the time was shortened to merely 'AP'.  Yet, I first entered
> the CP list about March 1995, and was solidly responding to dozens, of
> messages, per day.  And other people, many dozens of them, were posting
> similar, and responding, messages back to me, and to others on the list.
> None of that seems to be present, at least not before November 2005, and
> yet it is solidly present in 2006.
>
>  And yet, mysteriously, references to me and my then-email address,
> jimbell@pacifier.com simply don't occur until November 1995.  But if you
> compare the 1996 archive, and the Venona-file equivalent, you will see that
> these text strings are subsequently heavily present that later year, 1996,
> as in fact they should also have been for more than the last half of the
> year 1995.  And in fact, there should be far more references to "AP", per
> day in mid-late 1995, than eventually would be (and, I presume, still are)
> found in 1996.
>
> (only clueless, malicious people like Razer don't comprehend this, or at
> least they pretend not to be able to figure it out.)
>
> Since you are sympathetic to the Cypherpunks cause (why else would you be
> here?), I can tell you that there is some very good news,  There is no
> reason to believe, now that I have discovered a major problem with the
> tampering, that it will be impossible to re-acquire most if not all of the
> emails making up what should be the archive.
>
> But the not-quite-so-good-news is that perhaps you ought to mentally
> re-orient yourself, shift gears a little.  Yes, I agree that making and
> maintaining an accurate Cypherpunks archive it good and important.  But you
> don't mow the grass when your house is on fire, do you?  I say we have an
> 'emergency', since I have discovered massive and deliberate tampering with
> the CP archive.  Because of your motivation to maintain an accurate list, I
> think you should also be motivated to figure out who managed to engineer
> such an abhorrent fraud,  And you will notice that these tasks heavily
> overlap.
>
> To generate an accurate archive now requires determining what material has
> been omitted.   And that is a difficult task:  Prior to this, I suppose you
> thought you were dealing only with accidental, inadvertent data omissions.
> Now, you are aware that  that there is at least one huge, deliberate,
> malicious fraud.  And just because I noticed (so far) one of them, doesn't
> mean that there are not others, ones that I haven't yet noticed.  Clearly,
> the fact that this fraud wasn't discovered until 3 days ago means that the
> "tools", and "system" that we should otherwise expect will find this sort
> of thing didn't actually work.  So, if they are not changed, there is no
> reason to believe they will begin to work in the future.  You were aware of
> some omissions, you just didn't understand what they were and how they were
> caused:
>
> "I have an uneasy feeling that many of the posts from this era may
> already be irrecoverably lost. If this is true it would be a great shame
> for future generations who want to learn about this vital period of
> internet history and development."
>
> Also, you should be aware that deliberately tampering with computer data
> is a Federal felony.
> https://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/criminal-ccips/legacy/2015/01/14/ccmanual.pdf
>  The people who accomplished this forgery are in grave danger of
> prosecution, or at least they should be if the government prosecutors do
> their job.  And part of OUR task will be to expose AND publicize this
> corruption sufficiently well so as to help guarantee that the Feds don't
> have any alternative to prosecute them.  Do you think you can do that?  And
> that includes finding out the nature of the forgery, in at least enough
> detail to allow a prosecutor to bring a winning case.
>
> Are you getting excited now, Mr. Busby?  It's only going to get more
> "real" from here on in.  "Fasten your seat belts, it's going to be a bumpy
> night."
>                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vEEh0GF_C8
>
>                        Jim Bell
>
>
>
>
>  Virus-free.
> www.avast.com
> 
> <#m_-7172171142358627265_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>

if anyone reading this has their own copies of the 1990s archives, I'd love to have them. I can't make any promises about when I'll be able to work on processing them, but rest assured I will take great care of those archive files

Similarly, whatever is received here sits pending header anon, and merging. Merge msgs to a standard isn't much work depending on liberties taken, it's mostly get around to it, so the public sources sit pending that too, which seems the status of a few such projects that are busied out. Now If another nice unix mailbox and or some news spool, made its way here, that could be further motivational to lint and merge everything... If nothing turns up by year end I could reach out to sources, maybe even 1-800-NSA-DISK ;) Other old lists could be returned from such queries, but are probably already in well known textfiles archives already. Then there's the GoogleGroups tragedy. Anyway, if Jim's stuff ever pops up I'll post it.

This a good suggestion. NSA most likely to have archived the whole shebang, perhaps still does. Related, the "NSA Bot" which began siphoning Cryptome daily in 1996: https://cryptome.org/jya/nsa-bot.htm At 07:11 AM 11/5/2019, you wrote:

Maybe the feds have an archive we can FOIA out of them ;)

Haha, doubtful.

I have another question:  on the CP archive page  https://mailing-list-archive.cryptoanarchy.wiki/authors/notable/     , it has an option to show "Notable Authors".  Finding my own listing, it states: Jim Bell - jim bell  - 1118 posts - jimbell@pacifier.com (Jim Bell) - 57 posts - jimbell@pacifier.com - 1 posts - jimbell@pacifier.com (jimbell) - 1 posts | My posting count above, 1118, seems to be larger than anybody's, except for Tim May. I wonder over what time frame this posting-count is derived.  |  At least based on the 1995 forged archive, almost none of my messages that would have posted 1995 are there!  | I would imagine that the largest proportion of my total sent messages, at least during 1995-1997, come from 1995. | So, where did that count, "1118" come from??   | And WHICH count does it appear to reflect:   The genuine count, or the forged count? | And there's another question:  The vast majority of the messages which should have been directed "to" me in 1995 to not appear.   | Do the people's message-counts who sent emails to me include those now-phantom emails, or omit them? | |                Jim Bell | | ? |

On November 5, 2019 4:11:08 AM PST, John Newman wrote:

Maybe the feds have an archive we can FOIA out of them ;)

+1 http://getprsm.com/ has it. Rr Sent from my Androgyne dee-vice with K-9 Mail

On Tue, Nov 05, 2019 at 05:26:34PM +0000, jim bell wrote:

On Tuesday, November 5, 2019, 04:11:33 AM PST, John Newman wrote:

On November 5, 2019 7:44:48 AM UTC, grarpamp wrote:

...

...

if anyone reading this has their own copies of the 1990s archives, I'd love to have them. I can't make any promises about when I'll be able to work on processing them, but rest assured I will take great care of those archive files

...

Similarly, whatever is received here sits pending header anon, and merging. Merge msgs to a standard isn't much work depending on liberties taken, it's mostly get around to it, so the public sources sit pending that too, which seems the status of a few such projects that are busied out. Now If another nice unix mailbox and or some news spool, made its way here, that could be further motivational to lint and merge everything... If nothing turns up by year end I could reach out to sources, maybe even 1-800-NSA-DISK ;) Other old lists could be returned from such queries, but are probably already in well known textfiles archives already.

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Then there's the GoogleGroups tragedy.

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Anyway, if Jim's stuff ever pops up I'll post it.

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Maybe the feds have an archive... I already thought of that, but it seemed so obvious... Somewhere in that Utah multi-exabyte data complex... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWySZF709Kg

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... we can FOIA out of them ;) Haha, doubtful. Which version?   The later, tampered-with version, or the earlier, correct version?  Yet another "haha". But that would actually be a seriously good idea.  It would show what the actual (we hope!) original data looked like, but it would also document the history of various altered versions as they publicly appeared.  I haven't tried to access the Wayback Machine yet, but did those venona files ever get scraped?  Data point:  The government's original Venona project was shut down in October 1980, and eventually declassified in 1995.   Hence, a good excuse for making some files of old information named "venona". I should also mention the 'coincidence' of my July-2003 (re-)filing of my lawsuit, with (I believe) a recent reference to the CP venona files, date 2003.  Remember, the Feds would have read that lawsuit then, and a much less extensive version a year earlier, and it was at  least at that point that they knew they might be exposed.   Making the CP, or at least the portion dealing with me and AP would have been a plausible response.  Note:  In addition to Wire Fraud and Evidence Tampering, they were guilty of Obstruction of Justice.  And probably a few dozen other statutes as well.               Jim Bell

A haiku, for you: Already hinted at. Not if done, by court order. Arse surely covered.

I'm trying to understand what you are saying, here...          Jim Bell On Friday, November 8, 2019, 07:04:31 PM PST, grarpamp wrote: The yahoo set has gaps that may indicate selective importation or subsequent takedown events. Someone with more time should load up other sources for 97 and see what msgs fell between these msgids... --- missing 1 msg here --- <5ZHR1D53w165w@bwalk.dm.com> <199702180330.TAA21698@toad.com> --- missing 1 msg here --- <199702180512.VAA23681@toad.com> <199702210626.WAA01288@toad.com> --- missing 1 msg here --- EOF

Ah, okay.               Jim Bell On Sunday, November 10, 2019, 10:10:32 AM PST, grarpamp wrote: On 11/9/19, jim bell wrote:

  I'm trying to understand what you are saying, here...

Yahoogroups cpunks copy is missing messages. To find what's missing from yahoo, and possibly why, someone has to look at other archives between the indicated msg-id's to see if they show up.

What months  of emails are missing?  By my recollection, nearly all postings in the 1995 archive file end February 14, 1995, and resume about July 11, 1995.  (there are a very few during this period, though.)   I think this simulates a 'data loss'.But, very few postings mentioning "Jim Bell", "jimbell@pacifier.com", " ap ", "assassination politics"  occur even after July 11, 1995:  Just a handful in November and December 1995. One possibility is that 'they' were trying to make my AP look like it appeared 8 months after it actually did.  What happened on April 19, 1995?  The Oklahoma City Bombing.  (OKCB).  It is an expected fact that populations are likely to be more sympathetic to extreme government reactions if they seem to be 'under attack'.  A historian studying the (faked) archive would conclude that AP must have been first publicized November 1995, well after the truth:  February 1995.   I wrote AP in the shadow of the Ruby Ridge incident in August 1992, and the Waco Texas incident which occurred April 1993.  By January 1995, it was obvious that no Federal employee was going to be punished for those matters, and certainly not adequately.  But I also knew that the public had no mechanism to force that punishment, which was very much needed.   I invented what I soon labelled "Assassination Politics", realized that it was the tool the public needed, and wrote the essay and publicized it.   The Federal Government began spying on me almost immediately, and in fact about 2 months prior to the OKCB.  By making it appear that AP was written and published in November 1995, they invert this relationship and perhaps make it appear that I sympathized with the OKCB, where instead I wanted to make such incidents totally unnecessary. Those who faked the archive may also have deleted other emails, figuring that if they had only deleted a few, we would eventually learn what those few emails were.  By deleting perhaps thousands, they concealed what was done.                Jim Bell On Tuesday, November 12, 2019, 09:39:07 PM PST, grarpamp wrote: A fuller copy that subscribed to Toad floated here, it's in a shit format. So people should always feel free to post / send / link whatever they have. Anyway, in it, Jim's '/(jim|james).*bell/i' first... - msg is Date: Tue, 07 Nov 1995 16:10:53 -0800 - mention of /ass?ass?inn?ation/i is Date: Fri, 17 Nov 1995 11:25:42 -0800 which reads... If you've been following my idea, "assassination politics," you know that there is an excellent use for payee-anonymous digital cash. First mention of '/ass?ass?inn?ation pol/i' in the entire copy is Jim's above... Date: Fri, 17 Nov 1995 11:25:42 -0800 This may mean... - Posts implied by the "following" context above occurred earlier elsewhere that was not being fed to Toad (elsewhere could include some non-cpunks channel[s]), and Jim switched to Toad later by first date above. - Some other cpunks remailer variation on that. - Censorship of two independant archive sources. Perhaps a bit unlikely since the serialization format of the Toad source seems intact (Yahoo failed its own serialization, and Venona/Cryptome has none). Exactly what months, and or other specific elements and or posts, are people saying are missing again? Then there was... nntp:talk.politics.assassination Scientific American Oct 77 The Economist March 2 96

On Tuesday, November 12, 2019, 11:43:59 PM PST, grarpamp wrote: On 11/13/19, jim bell wrote:

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  What months  of emails are missing?  By my recollection, nearly all postings in the 1995 archive file end February 14, 1995, and resume about July 11, 1995.  (there are a very few during this period, though.)  I think t>his simulates a 'data loss'.

Not regarding this Toad source...

1590 Jan 1995 1686 Feb 1995 1610 Mar 1995 1924 Apr 1995 1657 May 1995 1622 Jun 1995 1847 Jul 1995 1583 Aug 1995 2315 Sep 1995 2147 Oct 1995 1685 Nov 1995 1878 Dec 1995

If that source  includes the actual emails, as well as the count of emails, we are in luck!

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But, very few postings mentioning "Jim Bell", "jimbell@pacifier.com", " ap ", "assassination politics"  occur even after July 11, 1995:  Just a handful in November and December 1995.

I forget if someone found and posted such a July match.

THey may have made a small error...

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Those who faked the archive may also have deleted other emails, figuring that if they had only deleted a few, we would eventually learn what those few emails were.

The three from the Yahoo set I posted should be easy for someone to find in another set. Excellent.

  By deleting perhaps thousands, they concealed what was done.

That's possible, except that afaik no one has publicly mentioned finding any of your presumed missing early AP posts in any public or private archive prior to the first known dates posted in these threads.

That's what people should look for among their disks and peers. Yes... And that's one big reason I want some people who were on CP during that period to show up and agree that "Some things are missing!!!"

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the public had no mechanism to force that punishment, which was very much needed.

Punishment implies perhaps some physical force as mandatory default course of action. Whereas with a real AP system... meaning one that is accessible to the public masses, and thus obviously reported on in the media... any mark for reeducation that starts accumulating satoshis will be quickly aware of their position on the list... no sane person would at that point refuse to alter their ways or stand down. Thus chance of any such force ever being actually applied is very small, and even if so, in a ratio lower than any statistically relavant property theft, damage, abuse, injury, and or death. Which is why I always believed that with a well-functioning AP system, there will actually be few deaths needed.

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the OKCB instead I wanted to make such incidents totally unnecessary.

Those sort of people probably did not hear about AP yet, else maybe they would have elected somehow participating in AP's more peaceful approach... gone on some speaking tours about AP to change politik started some form of convincing educational system, perhaps book making or confirming news, etc. Yes, they simply didn't go through the thought necessary to understand how AP would actually operate.