On Sun, Mar 29, 2015 at 11:23 AM, Y G wrote:

The actual issue with the whole Brendan Eich thing was that it was basically just LGBT people being played off of Firefox for money.

That sorry scene struck me as more of a public stoning. A reminder to all who were watching, that a life's work contributing to the good of humanity (i.e. Free Software) means nothing. Toe the official line on culture issues, or you will be ruthlessly eliminated.

On 03/29/2015 03:54 PM, Jason McVetta wrote:

That sorry scene struck me as more of a public stoning. A reminder to all who were watching, that a life's work contributing to the good of humanity (i.e. Free Software) means nothing.

You're not thinking of it from their perspective. Everyone on this list understand the value of Free Software. That's because everyone on this list understand software at all. It's very, very important to understand that most people... just... don't. For 90% of the entire population of the entire planet -- even while their lives are literally being run by computers -- a computer is absolutely nothing more than a Magic Box of Lights. Nothing. More. Which means that "source code" -- and thus "Free Software" -- is literally meaningless to them. There's a prerequisite for the Four Freedoms that goes unmentioned, because it's just assumed as obvious to almost everyone who ever discusses them. -- The KNOWLEDGE of how to program, and what a computer program actually is And without that knowledge, it doesn't matter if you can run a program as you want to -- not if there's no difference between double-clicking on a .exe file or a .app, and on a .docx. It doesn't matter if somewhere, at some website on some webserver, the source code is available for access -- sometimes even commented! -- to be studied and manipulated, if it is literally in some incomprehensible foreign language. To a person who can't read, a book can only provide a source of fuel. To a person who can't read code, source code doesn't even provide that. So building from there, here is what happened, from their perspective: " A wizard -- a great wizard, apparently, whom a lot of wizards like and respect, but whom I don't know a single thing he did, especially not one that I use -- was a jerk. Was enough of a jerk that he was literally willing to spend money to hurt me and my friends. And if I can hurt him by yelling loud enough? Y'know what, I will. " Those people care. About themselves, about their friends, about other people -- about freedom, and standing up to corporations who put out stumbling blocks, and about being able to be and do what you want, not what someone wants you to do. They *care*. But they don't understand code. They barely know that code even *exists*. And so of course they don't care about that. It's literally impossible to care about something you don't know a thing about. So this will happen again. And again, and again, because whenever some corporation can pit two groups together and, and know that there can never be a common understanding on both sides, and guess which side will win, they will. They will again, and again, and again, and they won't care how many projects or people they destroy. And as long as we let people sit around in ignorance of what software even *is*, *WE ARE LETTING THEM DO IT.* The only way to stop an illiterate person from burning their books is to teach them to read. Teach them to read, and teach them to learn, and then there won't be fiascos any more. Just discussions.

Dnia poniedziałek, 30 marca 2015 10:33:47 eden pisze:

Y G:

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On 03/29/2015 03:54 PM, Jason McVetta wrote:

...

That sorry scene struck me as more of a public stoning. A reminder to all who were watching, that a life's work contributing to the good of humanity (i.e. Free Software) means nothing.

You're not thinking of it from their perspective.

...

Thank you very much for this description of what happened. I am a nerd AND a member of the QUILTBAG community. I saw it happen, and so quickly that there was no time to react. I vaguely remember that i heard about the critique, and he had already resigned 3 days later! There was literally no time for "educating" the QUILTBAG community. The whole thing was a fiasco for "freedom". I feel i have to state that i can work with people i disagree with (up to a certain degree) and that Brendan EICH was no monster, just "uneducated" about *my* perspective.

Which points to the bigger question of education: non-nerds need to learn the value of those invisible computers that connect the world; some nerds need to learn the value of "open"; some people need to learn to work together with people they disagree with; and some people need to learn the value of diversity. Whew. I'm exhausted, and i'm sure my list is not even complete.

I think this is the bes thing I have read about the whole thing, ever. Thank you. -- Pozdrawiam, Michał "rysiek" Woźniak Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147 GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147

Are people even aware that he gave only 1,000$ to this political movement? It's not like if it was 250,000 $, which would still be nothing compared to Mozilla's funding. I can't help to wonder how the hell they manage to spend their hundreds of meellions. Doesn't quite feel like free software now. Le 29 mars 2015 21:54:13 CEST, Jason McVetta a écrit :

On Sun, Mar 29, 2015 at 11:23 AM, Y G wrote:

...

The actual issue with the whole Brendan Eich thing was that it was basically just LGBT people being played off of Firefox for money.

That sorry scene struck me as more of a public stoning. A reminder to all who were watching, that a life's work contributing to the good of humanity (i.e. Free Software) means nothing. Toe the official line on culture issues, or you will be ruthlessly eliminated.

Dnia poniedziałek, 30 marca 2015 18:15:20 Georgi Guninski pisze:

DISCLAIMER: I am neither gay nor anti-gay.

It's called "heterosexual", not "anti-gay". /me couldn't resist, sorry. -- Pozdrawiam, Michał "rysiek" Woźniak Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147 GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147

On 03/30/2015 06:42 PM, Sampo Syreeni wrote:

On 2015-03-30, rysiek wrote:

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DISCLAIMER: I am neither gay nor anti-gay.

It's called "heterosexual", not "anti-gay".

No it's not. I happen to be a heterosexual pro-gay who knows heterosexual anti-gays. In fact I even know gay pro-gays and a gay anti-gay. Se being trans.

...

/me couldn't resist, sorry.

Tell me about it, girl. I interpreted that as jokingly interpreting "anti-gay" as "the opposite of gay" -- so "heterosexual".

On 03/30/2015 03:34 PM, rysiek wrote:

Dnia poniedziałek, 30 marca 2015 18:15:20 Georgi Guninski pisze:

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DISCLAIMER: I am neither gay nor anti-gay.

It's called "heterosexual", not "anti-gay".

/me couldn't resist, sorry.

I think that by "anti-gay", he means "homophobic", or in more general terms, judgmental asshole ;)

Dnia poniedziałek, 30 marca 2015 22:09:58 dan@geer.org pisze:

Point of order: One can be anti-$XYZ without being $XYZ-phobic.

Example: What this thread has to do with listening on UDP:1900 is, well, digressive and while I am anti-digression I sure as hell am not digression-phobic or, to be most clear, you are not seriously anti-$XYZ until you have put any $XYZ-phobia with which you might be freighted fully behind you.

As Aristotle said, "Tolerance is the last virtue of a dying society."

And yet Greeks had no problems with homosexuals. So they didn't even have to be "tolerant" towards "them". So I read this sentence the other way around: a society that has to be "tolerant" is dying, as things that should not bother anyone at all are apparently bothering a lot of people (some of whom at least try to stay "tolerant" towards them). -- Pozdrawiam, Michał "rysiek" Woźniak Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147 GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147

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As Aristotle said, "Tolerance is the last virtue of a dying society."

And yet Greeks had no problems with homosexuals. So they didn't even have to be "tolerant" towards "them".

So I read this sentence the other way around: a society that has to be "tolerant" is dying, as things that should not bother anyone at all are apparently bothering a lot of people (some of whom at least try to stay "tolerant" towards them).

There are those who believe something, and therefore will tolerate nothing; and on the other hand, those who tolerate everything, because they believe nothing. -- Robert Browning

On 03/30/2015 05:34 PM, rysiek wrote:

Dnia poniedziałek, 30 marca 2015 18:15:20 Georgi Guninski pisze:

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DISCLAIMER: I am neither gay nor anti-gay.

It's called "heterosexual", not "anti-gay".

/me couldn't resist, sorry.

Nooo... "anti-gay"... If an anti-gay person touches a gay person, then they mutually annihilate into pure energy, which can be captured/focused/however-the-heck-it-works to power warp drives... (Because I usually suck at sarcasm, I'm going to explicitly state that this is sarcasm, and also a (bad) Star Trek reference...)

Dnia poniedziałek, 30 marca 2015 19:26:46 Y G pisze:

On 03/30/2015 05:34 PM, rysiek wrote:

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Dnia poniedziałek, 30 marca 2015 18:15:20 Georgi Guninski pisze:

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DISCLAIMER: I am neither gay nor anti-gay.

It's called "heterosexual", not "anti-gay".

/me couldn't resist, sorry.

Nooo... "anti-gay"... If an anti-gay person touches a gay person, then they mutually annihilate into pure energy, which can be captured/focused/however-the-heck-it-works to power warp drives...

My drive warped once, I lost a lot of data. Not fun. Also, don't you mean "queer drives"?

(Because I usually suck at sarcasm, I'm going to explicitly state that this is sarcasm, and also a (bad) Star Trek reference...)

I like how you use the "s-word" in the context of this thread. Why yes, I was indeed referring to sarcasm. -- Pozdrawiam, Michał "rysiek" Woźniak Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147 GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147

2015-03-31 23:38 GMT+09:00 Georgi Guninski :

P_2: I don't care how gays fuck themselves, but don't understand why they are proud of it and make parade. Should all people with feature $X$ parade? Should drunkards and lunatics parade because they are proud of their condition? Do gays have more rights than heterosexual people?

To show it's not something you need to hide. Mozilla was in murky waters regarding employee's freedom of speech (spending == speech says supreme court) and an important employee's (very and imho justly) unpopular opinion. The important employee solved the problem by leaving, freedom of speech made a distant pained sound and the aggressive-tolerance community turned it's iPhones to other no doubt super important causes. ITT: Mozilla publishes an dumb update for something nobody could had ever wanted, reducing security, does not feature disable preference. Regarding Google alliance: money for freedom in exchange for a search-engine most will use anyway? Probably a good trade (makes Firefox better in the end). Switching it to Bing whenever they pay more, or just to make Google pay up? Very consistent. When Ubuntu went full retard with Amazon, that was amazingly over the top stupid. I hope they got good money for it, in the end improving people's security and privacy. Made me switch to Debian though. Just waiting for the thing that forces me to OpenBSD. And when my last features are gone, finally I shall have peace.