More importantly, they ditched off their lead developer, Brendan Eich, the creator of javascript at Netscape times, because of made up gay-related donation scandal.
Someone donates to prevent gay marriage: BOYCOTT HIM Someone donates to the political campaign of a war monger: eh, big deal. Government funds terrorists: eh, big deal.
Dnia poniedziałek, 23 marca 2015 15:06:09 Ryan Carboni pisze:
More importantly, they ditched off their lead developer, Brendan Eich, the creator of javascript at Netscape times, because of made up gay-related donation scandal.
Someone donates to prevent gay marriage: BOYCOTT HIM
Someone donates to the political campaign of a war monger: eh, big deal.
Government funds terrorists: eh, big deal.
I'm fine with fixing the latter two. Or were you implying that the first one was the problem? -- Pozdrawiam, Michał "rysiek" Woźniak Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147 GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
On 03/28/2015 04:54 PM, rysiek wrote:
Dnia poniedziałek, 23 marca 2015 15:06:09 Ryan Carboni pisze:
More importantly, they ditched off their lead developer, Brendan Eich, the creator of javascript at Netscape times, because of made up gay-related donation scandal.
Someone donates to prevent gay marriage: BOYCOTT HIM
Someone donates to the political campaign of a war monger: eh, big deal.
Government funds terrorists: eh, big deal.
I'm fine with fixing the latter two. Or were you implying that the first one was the problem?
I'm guessing that it was the discrepancy between the first one and the second two. The actual issue with the whole Brendan Eich thing was that it was basically just LGBT people being played off of Firefox for money. Like, (and I could be wrong, I wasn't really paying attention that much at the beginning) I'm 90% sure it was actually a pretty small thing that could have totally cooled down, until OKCupid literally BANNED Firefox users from their site to build up a controversy where they were the "good guys". It reeks of being entirely a money play, and I challenge you to *not* see a boardroom of people running the numbers like "well, we have this many Firefox users, and if we block them for a day we'll lose maybe this percent... Johnson, can you and PR give us an estimate for how much we'll gain from PR for this" ... "Oh, we'll be driving a pointless wedge between LGBT activists and Software activists? Well, lemme just wipe away all my tears with a 20$ bill to show exactly how much I care about that..." /me is not totally over that, because it could so easily happen again...
On Sun, Mar 29, 2015 at 11:23 AM, Y G <ygwald@brandeis.edu> wrote:
The actual issue with the whole Brendan Eich thing was that it was basically just LGBT people being played off of Firefox for money.
That sorry scene struck me as more of a public stoning. A reminder to all who were watching, that a life's work contributing to the good of humanity (i.e. Free Software) means nothing. Toe the official line on culture issues, or you will be ruthlessly eliminated.
That sorry scene struck me as more of a public stoning. A reminder to all who were watching, that a life's work contributing to the good of humanity (i.e. Free Software) means nothing. Toe the official line on culture issues, or you will be ruthlessly eliminated.
The largest cultural menace in America is the conformity of the intellectual cliques which, in education as well as the arts, are out to impose upon the nation their modish fads and fallacies, and have nearly succeeded in doing so. --dan
On 03/29/2015 03:54 PM, Jason McVetta wrote:
That sorry scene struck me as more of a public stoning. A reminder to all who were watching, that a life's work contributing to the good of humanity (i.e. Free Software) means nothing.
You're not thinking of it from their perspective. Everyone on this list understand the value of Free Software. That's because everyone on this list understand software at all. It's very, very important to understand that most people... just... don't. For 90% of the entire population of the entire planet -- even while their lives are literally being run by computers -- a computer is absolutely nothing more than a Magic Box of Lights. Nothing. More. Which means that "source code" -- and thus "Free Software" -- is literally meaningless to them. There's a prerequisite for the Four Freedoms that goes unmentioned, because it's just assumed as obvious to almost everyone who ever discusses them. -- The KNOWLEDGE of how to program, and what a computer program actually is And without that knowledge, it doesn't matter if you can run a program as you want to -- not if there's no difference between double-clicking on a .exe file or a .app, and on a .docx. It doesn't matter if somewhere, at some website on some webserver, the source code is available for access -- sometimes even commented! -- to be studied and manipulated, if it is literally in some incomprehensible foreign language. To a person who can't read, a book can only provide a source of fuel. To a person who can't read code, source code doesn't even provide that. So building from there, here is what happened, from their perspective: " A wizard -- a great wizard, apparently, whom a lot of wizards like and respect, but whom I don't know a single thing he did, especially not one that I use -- was a jerk. Was enough of a jerk that he was literally willing to spend money to hurt me and my friends. And if I can hurt him by yelling loud enough? Y'know what, I will. " Those people care. About themselves, about their friends, about other people -- about freedom, and standing up to corporations who put out stumbling blocks, and about being able to be and do what you want, not what someone wants you to do. They *care*. But they don't understand code. They barely know that code even *exists*. And so of course they don't care about that. It's literally impossible to care about something you don't know a thing about. So this will happen again. And again, and again, because whenever some corporation can pit two groups together and, and know that there can never be a common understanding on both sides, and guess which side will win, they will. They will again, and again, and again, and they won't care how many projects or people they destroy. And as long as we let people sit around in ignorance of what software even *is*, *WE ARE LETTING THEM DO IT.* The only way to stop an illiterate person from burning their books is to teach them to read. Teach them to read, and teach them to learn, and then there won't be fiascos any more. Just discussions.
Y G:
On 03/29/2015 03:54 PM, Jason McVetta wrote:
That sorry scene struck me as more of a public stoning. A reminder to all who were watching, that a life's work contributing to the good of humanity (i.e. Free Software) means nothing.
You're not thinking of it from their perspective. ...
Thank you very much for this description of what happened. I am a nerd AND a member of the QUILTBAG community. I saw it happen, and so quickly that there was no time to react. I vaguely remember that i heard about the critique, and he had already resigned 3 days later! There was literally no time for "educating" the QUILTBAG community. The whole thing was a fiasco for "freedom". I feel i have to state that i can work with people i disagree with (up to a certain degree) and that Brendan EICH was no monster, just "uneducated" about *my* perspective. Which points to the bigger question of education: non-nerds need to learn the value of those invisible computers that connect the world; some nerds need to learn the value of "open"; some people need to learn to work together with people they disagree with; and some people need to learn the value of diversity. Whew. I'm exhausted, and i'm sure my list is not even complete. -- eden
Dnia poniedziałek, 30 marca 2015 10:33:47 eden pisze:
Y G:
On 03/29/2015 03:54 PM, Jason McVetta wrote:
That sorry scene struck me as more of a public stoning. A reminder to all who were watching, that a life's work contributing to the good of humanity (i.e. Free Software) means nothing.
You're not thinking of it from their perspective.
...
Thank you very much for this description of what happened. I am a nerd AND a member of the QUILTBAG community. I saw it happen, and so quickly that there was no time to react. I vaguely remember that i heard about the critique, and he had already resigned 3 days later! There was literally no time for "educating" the QUILTBAG community. The whole thing was a fiasco for "freedom". I feel i have to state that i can work with people i disagree with (up to a certain degree) and that Brendan EICH was no monster, just "uneducated" about *my* perspective.
Which points to the bigger question of education: non-nerds need to learn the value of those invisible computers that connect the world; some nerds need to learn the value of "open"; some people need to learn to work together with people they disagree with; and some people need to learn the value of diversity. Whew. I'm exhausted, and i'm sure my list is not even complete.
I think this is the bes thing I have read about the whole thing, ever. Thank you. -- Pozdrawiam, Michał "rysiek" Woźniak Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147 GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
On Sun, Mar 29, 2015 at 12:54:13PM -0700, Jason McVetta wrote:
On Sun, Mar 29, 2015 at 11:23 AM, Y G <ygwald@brandeis.edu> wrote:
The actual issue with the whole Brendan Eich thing was that it was basically just LGBT people being played off of Firefox for money.
That sorry scene struck me as more of a public stoning. A reminder to all who were watching, that a life's work contributing to the good of humanity (i.e. Free Software) means nothing. Toe the official line on culture issues, or you will be ruthlessly eliminated.
Trying to CC Brendan. Brendan, we are discussing you and the thread starts at [-1] I don't think it means "nothing" for the simple reason his life is not over. He well might DO something much more important, while not being employed by a whore corporation. [-1] https://cpunks.org//pipermail/cypherpunks/2015-March/007036.html -- georgi
Are people even aware that he gave only 1,000$ to this political movement? It's not like if it was 250,000 $, which would still be nothing compared to Mozilla's funding. I can't help to wonder how the hell they manage to spend their hundreds of meellions. Doesn't quite feel like free software now. Le 29 mars 2015 21:54:13 CEST, Jason McVetta <jason.mcvetta@gmail.com> a écrit :
On Sun, Mar 29, 2015 at 11:23 AM, Y G <ygwald@brandeis.edu> wrote:
The actual issue with the whole Brendan Eich thing was that it was basically just LGBT people being played off of Firefox for money.
That sorry scene struck me as more of a public stoning. A reminder to all who were watching, that a life's work contributing to the good of humanity (i.e. Free Software) means nothing. Toe the official line on culture issues, or you will be ruthlessly eliminated.
On Sun, Mar 29, 2015 at 02:23:06PM -0400, Y G wrote:
The actual issue with the whole Brendan Eich thing was that it was basically just LGBT people being played off of Firefox for money. Like,
Would some one try to contact "Gay Nigger Association of America", their name is related ?[-1] According to wikipedia [-2] "Following Eich's resignation, the anti-gay?? National Organization for Marriage called for its own boycott of Mozilla, due to "gay activists who have forced him out of the company he has helped lead for years".[17][22]" So gays won? Does this speak something about the state of current society? DISCLAIMER: I am neither gay nor anti-gay. [-1] http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Gay_Nigger_Association_of_America&oldid=645050898 [-2] https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Brendan_Eich&oldid=653994175
Dnia poniedziałek, 30 marca 2015 18:15:20 Georgi Guninski pisze:
DISCLAIMER: I am neither gay nor anti-gay.
It's called "heterosexual", not "anti-gay". /me couldn't resist, sorry. -- Pozdrawiam, Michał "rysiek" Woźniak Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147 GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
On 2015-03-30, rysiek wrote:
DISCLAIMER: I am neither gay nor anti-gay.
It's called "heterosexual", not "anti-gay".
No it's not. I happen to be a heterosexual pro-gay who knows heterosexual anti-gays. In fact I even know gay pro-gays and a gay anti-gay. Se being trans.
/me couldn't resist, sorry.
Tell me about it, girl. -- Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - decoy@iki.fi, http://decoy.iki.fi/front +358-40-3255353, 025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2
On 03/30/2015 06:42 PM, Sampo Syreeni wrote:
On 2015-03-30, rysiek wrote:
DISCLAIMER: I am neither gay nor anti-gay.
It's called "heterosexual", not "anti-gay".
No it's not. I happen to be a heterosexual pro-gay who knows heterosexual anti-gays. In fact I even know gay pro-gays and a gay anti-gay. Se being trans.
/me couldn't resist, sorry.
Tell me about it, girl. I interpreted that as jokingly interpreting "anti-gay" as "the opposite of gay" -- so "heterosexual".
Dnia poniedziałek, 30 marca 2015 19:52:12 Y G pisze:
On 03/30/2015 06:42 PM, Sampo Syreeni wrote:
On 2015-03-30, rysiek wrote:
DISCLAIMER: I am neither gay nor anti-gay.
It's called "heterosexual", not "anti-gay".
No it's not. I happen to be a heterosexual pro-gay who knows heterosexual anti-gays. In fact I even know gay pro-gays and a gay anti-gay. Se being trans.
/me couldn't resist, sorry.
Tell me about it, girl.
I interpreted that as jokingly interpreting "anti-gay" as "the opposite of gay" -- so "heterosexual".
That was my intention. Now that I read it again, though, I see might have come off as anti-gay myself. And I'm not comfortable with that. Well, dang. -- Pozdrawiam, Michał "rysiek" Woźniak Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147 GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
On 03/30/2015 03:34 PM, rysiek wrote:
Dnia poniedziałek, 30 marca 2015 18:15:20 Georgi Guninski pisze:
DISCLAIMER: I am neither gay nor anti-gay.
It's called "heterosexual", not "anti-gay".
/me couldn't resist, sorry.
I think that by "anti-gay", he means "homophobic", or in more general terms, judgmental asshole ;)
Point of order: One can be anti-$XYZ without being $XYZ-phobic. Example: What this thread has to do with listening on UDP:1900 is, well, digressive and while I am anti-digression I sure as hell am not digression-phobic or, to be most clear, you are not seriously anti-$XYZ until you have put any $XYZ-phobia with which you might be freighted fully behind you. As Aristotle said, "Tolerance is the last virtue of a dying society." --dan
Dnia poniedziałek, 30 marca 2015 22:09:58 dan@geer.org pisze:
Point of order: One can be anti-$XYZ without being $XYZ-phobic.
Example: What this thread has to do with listening on UDP:1900 is, well, digressive and while I am anti-digression I sure as hell am not digression-phobic or, to be most clear, you are not seriously anti-$XYZ until you have put any $XYZ-phobia with which you might be freighted fully behind you.
As Aristotle said, "Tolerance is the last virtue of a dying society."
And yet Greeks had no problems with homosexuals. So they didn't even have to be "tolerant" towards "them". So I read this sentence the other way around: a society that has to be "tolerant" is dying, as things that should not bother anyone at all are apparently bothering a lot of people (some of whom at least try to stay "tolerant" towards them). -- Pozdrawiam, Michał "rysiek" Woźniak Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147 GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
On March 31, 2015 3:09:38 PM rysiek <rysiek@hackerspace.pl> wrote:
Dnia poniedziałek, 30 marca 2015 22:09:58 dan@geer.org pisze:
Point of order: One can be anti-$XYZ without being $XYZ-phobic.
Example: What this thread has to do with listening on UDP:1900 is, well, digressive and while I am anti-digression I sure as hell am not digression-phobic or, to be most clear, you are not seriously anti-$XYZ until you have put any $XYZ-phobia with which you might be freighted fully behind you.
As Aristotle said, "Tolerance is the last virtue of a dying society."
And yet Greeks had no problems with homosexuals. So they didn't even have to be "tolerant" towards "them".
****>>>>>>> So I read this sentence the other way around: a society that has to be
"tolerant" is dying, as things that should not bother anyone at all are apparently bothering a lot of people (some of whom at least try to stay "tolerant" towards them).
This exactly, rysiek. +1,000,000 internets to you. Here, have a rainbow star, too ;) -not the only ghey in the village
-- Pozdrawiam, Michał "rysiek" Woźniak
Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147 GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
As Aristotle said, "Tolerance is the last virtue of a dying society."
And yet Greeks had no problems with homosexuals. So they didn't even have to be "tolerant" towards "them".
So I read this sentence the other way around: a society that has to be "tolerant" is dying, as things that should not bother anyone at all are apparently bothering a lot of people (some of whom at least try to stay "tolerant" towards them).
There are those who believe something, and therefore will tolerate nothing; and on the other hand, those who tolerate everything, because they believe nothing. -- Robert Browning
Dnia poniedziałek, 30 marca 2015 16:47:43 Mirimir pisze:
On 03/30/2015 03:34 PM, rysiek wrote:
Dnia poniedziałek, 30 marca 2015 18:15:20 Georgi Guninski pisze:
DISCLAIMER: I am neither gay nor anti-gay.
It's called "heterosexual", not "anti-gay".
/me couldn't resist, sorry.
I think that by "anti-gay", he means "homophobic", or in more general terms, judgmental asshole ;)
DON'T CALL ME THAT! ;) -- Pozdrawiam, Michał "rysiek" Woźniak Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147 GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
On 03/30/2015 05:34 PM, rysiek wrote:
Dnia poniedziałek, 30 marca 2015 18:15:20 Georgi Guninski pisze:
DISCLAIMER: I am neither gay nor anti-gay.
It's called "heterosexual", not "anti-gay".
/me couldn't resist, sorry.
Nooo... "anti-gay"... If an anti-gay person touches a gay person, then they mutually annihilate into pure energy, which can be captured/focused/however-the-heck-it-works to power warp drives... (Because I usually suck at sarcasm, I'm going to explicitly state that this is sarcasm, and also a (bad) Star Trek reference...)
Nooo... "anti-gay"... If an anti-gay person touches a gay person, then they mutually annihilate into pure energy, which can be captured/focused/however-the-heck-it-works to power warp drives..
Gay, anti-gay, whatever - just don't cross the streams! (And as an LGBT person, I've had a good chuckle at all of this ;)
Dnia poniedziałek, 30 marca 2015 19:26:46 Y G pisze:
On 03/30/2015 05:34 PM, rysiek wrote:
Dnia poniedziałek, 30 marca 2015 18:15:20 Georgi Guninski pisze:
DISCLAIMER: I am neither gay nor anti-gay.
It's called "heterosexual", not "anti-gay".
/me couldn't resist, sorry.
Nooo... "anti-gay"... If an anti-gay person touches a gay person, then they mutually annihilate into pure energy, which can be captured/focused/however-the-heck-it-works to power warp drives...
My drive warped once, I lost a lot of data. Not fun. Also, don't you mean "queer drives"?
(Because I usually suck at sarcasm, I'm going to explicitly state that this is sarcasm, and also a (bad) Star Trek reference...)
I like how you use the "s-word" in the context of this thread. Why yes, I was indeed referring to sarcasm. -- Pozdrawiam, Michał "rysiek" Woźniak Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147 GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 11:34:33PM +0200, rysiek wrote:
Dnia poniedziałek, 30 marca 2015 18:15:20 Georgi Guninski pisze:
DISCLAIMER: I am neither gay nor anti-gay.
It's called "heterosexual", not "anti-gay".
/me couldn't resist, sorry.
Ok, I take the cheap bait. DISCLAIMER: I am heterosexual. IMHO there is difference between heterosexual and anti-gay. Consider interviewed P_1 and P_2 about gay pride march (parade). P_1: I don't care how gays fuck themselves. P_2: I don't care how gays fuck themselves, but don't understand why they are proud of it and make parade. Should all people with feature $X$ parade? Should drunkards and lunatics parade because they are proud of their condition? Do gays have more rights than heterosexual people? https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=LGBT_Pride_March_%28New_York_City%29&oldid=652929629
2015-03-31 23:38 GMT+09:00 Georgi Guninski <guninski@guninski.com>:
P_2: I don't care how gays fuck themselves, but don't understand why they are proud of it and make parade. Should all people with feature $X$ parade? Should drunkards and lunatics parade because they are proud of their condition? Do gays have more rights than heterosexual people?
To show it's not something you need to hide. Mozilla was in murky waters regarding employee's freedom of speech (spending == speech says supreme court) and an important employee's (very and imho justly) unpopular opinion. The important employee solved the problem by leaving, freedom of speech made a distant pained sound and the aggressive-tolerance community turned it's iPhones to other no doubt super important causes. ITT: Mozilla publishes an dumb update for something nobody could had ever wanted, reducing security, does not feature disable preference. Regarding Google alliance: money for freedom in exchange for a search-engine most will use anyway? Probably a good trade (makes Firefox better in the end). Switching it to Bing whenever they pay more, or just to make Google pay up? Very consistent. When Ubuntu went full retard with Amazon, that was amazingly over the top stupid. I hope they got good money for it, in the end improving people's security and privacy. Made me switch to Debian though. Just waiting for the thing that forces me to OpenBSD. And when my last features are gone, finally I shall have peace.
participants (12)
-
Alexis Wattel -
dan＠geer.org -
eden -
Georgi Guninski -
Jason McVetta -
Lodewijk andré de la porte -
Mirimir -
Ryan Carboni -
rysiek -
Sampo Syreeni -
Shelley -
Y G