Current State of Mailing Lists / Forums about Internet Freedom, Security and Privacy?
Hello. I was originally writing this post for tor-talk mailing list, which is a general mailing list hosted by Tor Project to discuss online anonymity and cryptography technology, I later realized it was probably a good idea to seek feedback from other lists so I crossposted it to many of them. It's all my humble options and please forgive if it's inappropriate. In the history of the Internet, there were always some communities who found themselves (or placed themselves) in the center of the storm on cutting edge development related to Internet freedom, security and privacy in the past 30 years. Back in the 80s, sci.crypto and a handful of newsgroups were prominent and widely read by everyone in the field of security and cryptography. In the 90s, there were comp.risks and the Cypherpunk mailing list, and they are probably everything you need for resources and discussions. In 2000s, Bugtraq and the Full Disclosure movement started, where all the security holes were debated and exposed. Those communities were center of the mass, brought all the talent people together, to conduct free discussions and research about everything ongoing in the field, no matter it was news, debate, designs, programs, rumors or personal argument, with light or no moderation, where ideas crashed on each other and produced fruitful new approaches. Unfortunately, it looks like that this kind of communities is becoming endangered species. It's hard to find anything similar after 2008 (or ~2005)? All the existing lists are dead pools now with few threads, some newsgroups still exist, but are toxic now since only narcissists are posting, and no other existent members to stop them since, they were all gone. The remaining lists are becoming project-centric, only discuss specific technical issues and not a general platform of discussion, such as this tor-talk (historically, mailing lists named as "-talk" were usually popular, like a party). seclists.org still has some historically famous lists but they are not very active, comp.risks only has news digest now! No posters! The Cryptography mailing list on metzdowd.com is still moving, but only 3 or 4 topics are discussed monthly (but in-depth, which is good), with strict on-topic policy. Other popular forums, like HackerNews or Reddit, functions more like a brief digest instead of a general purpose online forum. Where are all the hackers, developers, cryptographers, activists, researchers, etc gone? 1. It seems that the arise of social media, like Facebook and especially Twitter, is partially responsible for the current state of deterioration of online forums, as now all the latest and interesting information are tweets, and everyone's on Twitter. They are turning the Internet communities to be less and less formal and sophisticated people, Have a new project? Instead of writing a 1000 words short essay and debating with all the experts in the mailing list, just send a 50-word tweet and post the code to GitHub! 2. It seems that the scope of Internet freedom, security and privacy has expanded infinitely, it's infeasible to talk to everyone on Earth in this field by posting in two or three mailing lists, everyone moved to their personal (physical and online) social network to talk is a natural result of it. This is how the Cypherpunk list dead according to some, I believe the same thing is going on everywhere. (sorry if Cypherpunks found it's offensive, no intention to insult, but just no longer the center of mass according to John Gilmore in 2002). 3. It seems that the Internet is no longer an academic thing and compared to popular culture online, the research community becomes almost invisible and finally led to the collapse of many of them. 4. It seems that the Internet is no longer an utopian "cyberspace", but now with lots of threats, such as doxxing and mass surveillance. 20 years ago it's normal for a hacker or activist to post a controversial research, with the phone number and personal address attached in a mailing list, and joining monthly offline meetings. But now, many of them, or perhaps even you, the one who is reading this post, would prefer a low profile in the community, or proactively separate different works. Many are also prefer a private Off-the-record talk over a public debate, prefer small private groups with encryption over big open space. Some even proactively obscure or erase online records. This has two consequences, first, the Big Brother has to work harder and it's good. But it also means the community as a whore becomes harder to communicate with each other, there are always time when someone discovered something which is unnoticed to others, or comes up with an exceptionally good idea. But a fragmented community is more difficult to promote them. (It's also difficult to conduct a historical research in the future, which can be a problem. In contrast the Usenet posts from the 80s are still here and it's good for history and research, but bad for privacy, but it's another topic). Look! Number 1, 2, 3, 4 actually goes together, towards the same end! Does anyone have an option about how the things going on today? Any explanations of the current state of the Internet communities? And what is your recommendation of a good online fourm for general discussion of freedom, security and privacy? Cheers, John Random
On Tue, Dec 26, 2017 at 09:27:58AM -0800, BM-2cXCAVedtJwvdVXg9HeMPZp8k5UAakzTMs@bitmessage.ch wrote:
Does anyone have an option about how the things going on today? Any explanations of the current state of the Internet communities?
Bitcoin fever. The anarchists who are not so besotten with greed, actually conceive, and create. The so besotten clamour and cling, ride waves of profit for their personal foundations of greed, lust, glory and the rest. And so the few who actually care, who sought (some still seek) a genuinely "better" future, are drowned out in the deluge of human foibles - and right now those foibles are turbocharged with $20,000 per coin "inspiration". Cést la humanité.
And what is your recommendation of a good online fourm for general discussion of freedom, security and privacy?
Right here. Those other lists are censored. If you genuinely have genuine interest, there's a few ’round these parts that'll chime in and help set your misthoughts straight (at least, on the technical side :) - for everything else, there's Mircard :D
Please Know that I Care ..I have NO computer skills that I did not copy or follow Anthony P. Though he is gone I hope to get to know those who would bother with a Green Horn... I wanted you to know I stand With the freedom loving service especially as the tracks are going in as everything is dependent on levels of the global code dances and where important stories are given time to develop. I once had just One Date with a tall handsome security dud who told me, his face so close to my nose, that I could feel the warmth of his breath, " I did a full search to see if you were real". Imagine what I was thinking as I slide back in my chair and lifted my single malt small island scotch. I might not have computer language skills but I am one of you. I never spoke up before but doing this is part of my grieving process. If there is a true kind person who might give me a helping hand with my privacy needs, find a way to let me know. I just wanted to say ...Happy season of the time to rest and party no matter what your core stories are, I am so glad You Are All Here and I have been lucky to read and sometimes act on what you are talking about... yea, run on sentence... Have any of y'all written a book? I am working on an autobiography, anyone know good editors or agents and so forth? Somewhere beyond a dream, with.. Respect and Gratitude, Smile Ilsa Bartlett Institute for Rewiring the System http://ilsabartlett.wordpress.com http://www.google.com/profiles/ilsa.bartlett www.hotlux.com/angel <http://www.hotlux.com/angel.htm> "Don't ever get so big or important that you can not hear and listen to every other person." -John Coltrane On Tue, Dec 26, 2017 at 3:30 PM, Zenaan Harkness <zen@freedbms.net> wrote:
On Tue, Dec 26, 2017 at 09:27:58AM -0800, BM- 2cXCAVedtJwvdVXg9HeMPZp8k5UAakzTMs@bitmessage.ch wrote:
Does anyone have an option about how the things going on today? Any explanations of the current state of the Internet communities?
Bitcoin fever.
The anarchists who are not so besotten with greed, actually conceive, and create.
The so besotten clamour and cling, ride waves of profit for their personal foundations of greed, lust, glory and the rest.
And so the few who actually care, who sought (some still seek) a genuinely "better" future, are drowned out in the deluge of human foibles - and right now those foibles are turbocharged with $20,000 per coin "inspiration".
Cést la humanité.
And what is your recommendation of a good online fourm for general discussion of freedom, security and privacy?
Right here.
Those other lists are censored.
If you genuinely have genuine interest, there's a few ’round these parts that'll chime in and help set your misthoughts straight (at least, on the technical side :) - for everything else, there's Mircard :D
On Tue, Dec 26, 2017 at 05:26:32PM -0800, ilsa wrote:
I might not have computer language skills but I am one of you. I never spoke up before but doing this is part of my grieving process. If there is a true kind person who might give me a helping hand with my privacy needs, find a way to let me know.
Having genuine privacy in this day and age is a genuinely difficult thing - and the shekel grabbers ridding humans of pesky private cash are galloping as fast they can to the distopian 1984 and the like. There is no silver bullet. Wish there were... No silver bullet operating system. Nor user software. Nor hardware. Almost everything is compromised somewhere. Libre software is your only hope for a better future, but it will require libre hardware for an actual long term shift. Libre hardware is a ways off (for "years" values of "a ways"). Sorry, no easy answer, except stop putting your information online - you should already be aware that Googoyle, Faceblots, Twatter and the rest are absolute privacy violators - in fact, they are "your data" government funnels, direct to the NSA, CIA, FBI, Police, Mil, and your government reps. The only way forward is spending your human attention on things that have an actual foundation of libre ... Good luck,
On Tue, Dec 26, 2017 at 09:27:58AM -0800, BM-2cXCAVedtJwvdVXg9HeMPZp8k5UAakzTMs@bitmessage.ch wrote:
of the current state of the Internet communities? And what is your recommendation of a good online fourm for general discussion of freedom, security and privacy?
Long ago someone said "the only connection is disconnection". Searching google for this phrase returns only 4 results.
On 12/26/2017 12:27 PM, BM-2cXCAVedtJwvdVXg9HeMPZp8k5UAakzTMs@bitmessage.ch wrote:
It seems that the Internet is no longer an academic thing and compared to popular culture online, the research community becomes almost invisible and finally led to the collapse of many of them.
[...]
Where are all the hackers, developers, cryptographers, activists, researchers, etc gone?
Nowhere and Everywhere. Seek and ye shall find, but probably not what you expect to find: One can never step into the same river twice. The Internet actually has produced changes in human organization and, big surprise, it does so first among those who are most immersed in its technological and strategic/tactical aspects. We now have a fluid global community, where distinct forums, projects, etc. pop up, serve their ad hoc purposes, then change radically and/or or just dry up and blow away. Sometimes an accessible archive of Very Useful Bits will be left behind, sometimes not.
It seems that the Internet is no longer an academic thing and compared to popular culture online, the research community becomes almost invisible and finally led to the collapse of many of them.
No Duh and Yes Duh: The Internet stopped being an 'academic communiy' in every practical sense with the advent of AOL. But this did not cause research communities to collapse: See above. Sometimes they work themselves out of a job, or become obsolete when their subject matter loses relevance. On the darker side, such communities may fall prey to political forces hostile to their nominal missions, especially when people make the transition from noncommercial virtual interactions to business enterprises in meatspace: Check the rise and fall of EFF's TOR Project for a fascinating case study. Curious 3rd parties are not supposed to find their way into technical forums and the like, not easily that is, because look up the phrase Eternal September. But like minded clever people will find each other, for better or worse. "Somewhere there are people just like you. Go there." - Jerry Pournelle :o)
participants (5)
-
BM-2cXCAVedtJwvdVXg9HeMPZp8k5UAakzTMs@bitmessage.ch
-
Georgi Guninski
-
ilsa
-
Steve Kinney
-
Zenaan Harkness