‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ On Friday, June 26, 2020 11:54 PM, таракан wrote: ...

My understanding of Cypherpunks is - as per their Manifesto - that they are trying to build privacy in a world where privacy is becoming a crime.

I thought recently that the biggest 'weapon' against a fascism regime would be to create the inability for that fascist regime to track, locate, monitor and spy someone.

in the words of every hacker ever: "What's your threat model?" nation state attackers are fairly infallible, unless you're personally gifted and/or well resourced...

I walk in the street right now. Nobody knows who I am.

check out Clearview AI - and remember this is a commercial, non-classified effort! E.g.: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/18/technology/clearview-privacy-facial-recog... , https://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/clearview-app-privacy-1.5447420

My neighbor doesn't know my name. I rent a flat without any ID. Nobody knows my name.

finding the friendly landlord landlady who likes cash, month to month, is great. not that digital payments are not cash equivalents, however!

My SIM card isn't linked to any ID (true).

check out "The Find", and other techniques that are designed to work against burner phones; they attack pattern of life data exhaust across all cell tower radios in addition to targeted attacks against specific baseband chipsets of "selected" targets....

My credit card isn't my own credit card but belongs to someone who doesn't know me really. I get paid in Bitcoins. I go to a local shop and get cash against BTC without showing any ID.

next up, employ a mixer / tumbler when transacting BTC to avoid deanonymization attacks against the network itself. :P E.g. https://github.com/JoinMarket-Org/joinmarket-clientserver , etc...

My phone cannot track me because it hasn'\t a GPS and so on ...

note that tower based triangulation is nearly as effective as GPS, in terms of geolocation privacy risk.

I know that with the time that sort of life will be harder and harder. Hence I feel it is a noble task to build a system where people can live a normal life and stay anonymous - as they want.

indeed! as mentioned before: first deploy encryption to kill passive Eve's ears. then keying Hardened end-to-end to avoid active Mallory in the Middle. finally, harden Physical Security against burglary and rubber brutes...

Interesting enough soon there will be Quantum crypto, and maybe NSA has already it. How long can we trust these good old programs such as PGP? RSA wouldn't last a long time against a quantum computer ...

side benefit of privacy enhancing technologies like Fully Homomorphic Encryption: they're resistant to quantum attacks (e,g. Post-Quantum ready crypto :) C.f.: https://github.com/homenc/HElib , https://github.com/IBM/fhe-toolkit-macos , etc. best regards,

On Mon, Jun 29, 2020, 2:43 PM Karl wrote:

Just adding on here,

On Fri, Jun 26, 2020, 10:13 PM coderman wrote:

...

‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ On Friday, June 26, 2020 11:54 PM, таракан < cryptoanalyzers@protonmail.com> wrote: ...

My understanding of Cypherpunks is - as per their Manifesto - that they are trying to build privacy in a world where privacy is becoming a crime.

I thought recently that the biggest 'weapon' against a fascism regime would be to create the inability for that fascist regime to track, locate, monitor and spy someone.

in the words of every hacker ever: "What's your threat model?"

nation state attackers are fairly infallible, unless you're personally gifted and/or well resourced...

There are different degrees of being targeted. If you can stay uninteresting, there is still lots of value. (it's also quite inspiring to see targeted people using privacy technology, as not everyone is free to: and I imagine this helps talk to others without endangering them)

I walk in the street right now. Nobody knows who I am.

...

check out Clearview AI - and remember this is a commercial, non-classified effort! E.g.: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/18/technology/clearview-privacy-facial-recog... , https://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/clearview-app-privacy-1.5447420

Note that many are pausing on facial recognition now due to authority abuse. The OP would be a dot in a database who might be wearing a coronavirus mask and is associated only with where he walks.

...

My SIM card isn't linked to any ID (true).

check out "The Find", and other techniques that are designed to work against burner phones; they attack pattern of life data exhaust across all cell tower radios in addition to targeted attacks against specific baseband chipsets of "selected" targets....

Sounds like you need a lot of additional data to build a profile.

My phone cannot track me because it hasn'\t a GPS and so on ...

...

note that tower based triangulation is nearly as effective as GPS, in terms of geolocation privacy risk.

Effective, but less effective.

I like to keep a phone on hand bought from some physical store that sells a lot of them, with its antennas and ideally radio chips removed or grounded, before it is first turned on. I like to add a chain inside and keep the device chained to me. I have seen such devices do freaky things one learns to prevent, like update their system time over bluetooth. I have found them to be reliable secure storage for now.

...

I know that with the time that sort of life will be harder and harder. Hence I feel it is a noble task to build a system where people can live a normal life and stay anonymous - as they want.

indeed! as mentioned before:

first deploy encryption to kill passive Eve's ears. then keying Hardened end-to-end to avoid active Mallory in the Middle. finally, harden Physical Security against burglary and rubber brutes...

All things people have worked hard on but not quite normalized. Don't forget EMI.

...

Interesting enugh soon there will be Quantum crypto, and maybe NSA has already it. How long can we trust these good old programs such as PGP? RSA wouldn't last a long time against a quantum computer ...

side benefit of privacy enhancing technologies like Fully Homomorphic Encryption: they're resistant to quantum attacks (e,g. Post-Quantum ready crypto :)

C.f.: https://github.com/homenc/HElib , https://github.com/IBM/fhe-toolkit-macos , etc.

Thank you for this. Inspiring. Missing from pqcrypto.org .

Karl

There is proof inside many peoples' electronics. Proof that a marketing group would contract development of a frightening virus. A virus that responds to peoples' keystrokes and browsing habits, and changes what people see on their devices. A virus that alters political behavior en masse, for profit. There is proof inside many peoples' electronics. Proof that a marketing group would contract development of a frightening virus. A virus that responds to peoples' keystrokes and browsing habits, and changes what people see on their devices. A virus that alters political behavior en masse, for profit.

I can't speak for this list, but since I am on my email right now: I think the people who are whipping up before breakfast the anonymity networks that could save enslaved nations, are doing most of their work in private nowadays, to find more success. On Mon, Jun 29, 2020, 3:24 PM таракан wrote:

My understanding of cypherpunks is that they are/were a group of people trying to defeat evil things such as, indeed, Clearview and using their deep knowledge of cryptography to counter the use of digital technologies by a fascist power (imagine the Third Reich equipped with computers...)

Tracking/Controlling people isn't really knew but let us say there was always ... ways to escape... to find another land, another ID, where there was no question.

Think about the fictional character of Jean Valjean in "Les Misérables"(the book by Victor Hugo) ... As a convict he wore a mark on the arm, identifying him and had his infamous condition as a former *forcat* noted in his passport. This doesn't prevented him to become a notable, a rich entrepreuneur named Monsieur Madeleine.

The action is at the beginning of the XIX century in Post-revolutionary France.

Now imagine the same man in ... 2020... an escaped forcat... how can he live?, how can he change his identity? How can he transfer funds? Anything he will do, any move he will make will be noticed, tracked, recorded. The law enforcement will look at him everywhere , in all possible databases and if he wants to have a new French passport "the hard way", he shall have to tamper protected memory and insert false the records inside a biometric passport, which is extremely difficult. Corruption and social enginering may not work any more and making fake French passport should involve deep knowledge of cryptography...

Who can do this? Only Cypherpunks.

It can be argued that only 'criminals' should care about changing their identity but if you are targeted by a fascist regime, getting a new ID is a question of life and death.

yet to my understanding, escaping and defeating the net which is building itself, making the world as a gigantic jail, should be the mission of cypherpunks, or to whatever organization that would succeed to them.

Imagine a *real* fascist power taking control of the entire planet , how much time they need to seek and destroy opponents or individuals listed as potential dangers? *maybe just one hour*...

‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ On Monday, 29 June 2020 г., 21:44, Karl wrote:

On Mon, Jun 29, 2020, 2:43 PM Karl wrote:

...

Just adding on here,

On Fri, Jun 26, 2020, 10:13 PM coderman wrote:

...

‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ On Friday, June 26, 2020 11:54 PM, таракан < cryptoanalyzers@protonmail.com> wrote: ...

My understanding of Cypherpunks is - as per their Manifesto - that they are trying to build privacy in a world where privacy is becoming a crime.

I thought recently that the biggest 'weapon' against a fascism regime would be to create the inability for that fascist regime to track, locate, monitor and spy someone.

in the words of every hacker ever: "What's your threat model?"

nation state attackers are fairly infallible, unless you're personally gifted and/or well resourced...

There are different degrees of being targeted. If you can stay uninteresting, there is still lots of value. (it's also quite inspiring to see targeted people using privacy technology, as not everyone is free to: and I imagine this helps talk to others without endangering them)

I walk in the street right now. Nobody knows who I am.

...

check out Clearview AI - and remember this is a commercial, non-classified effort! E.g.: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/18/technology/clearview-privacy-facial-recog... , https://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/clearview-app-privacy-1.5447420

Note that many are pausing on facial recognition now due to authority abuse. The OP would be a dot in a database who might be wearing a coronavirus mask and is associated only with where he walks.

...

My SIM card isn't linked to any ID (true).

check out "The Find", and other techniques that are designed to work against burner phones; they attack pattern of life data exhaust across all cell tower radios in addition to targeted attacks against specific baseband chipsets of "selected" targets....

Sounds like you need a lot of additional data to build a profile.

My phone cannot track me because it hasn'\t a GPS and so on ...

...

note that tower based triangulation is nearly as effective as GPS, in terms of geolocation privacy risk.

Effective, but less effective.

I like to keep a phone on hand bought from some physical store that sells a lot of them, with its antennas and ideally radio chips removed or grounded, before it is first turned on. I like to add a chain inside and keep the device chained to me. I have seen such devices do freaky things one learns to prevent, like update their system time over bluetooth. I have found them to be reliable secure storage for now.

...

I know that with the time that sort of life will be harder and harder. Hence I feel it is a noble task to build a system where people can live a normal life and stay anonymous - as they want.

indeed! as mentioned before:

first deploy encryption to kill passive Eve's ears. then keying Hardened end-to-end to avoid active Mallory in the Middle. finally, harden Physical Security against burglary and rubber brutes...

All things people have worked hard on but not quite normalized. Don't forget EMI.

...

Interesting enugh soon there will be Quantum crypto, and maybe NSA has already it. How long can we trust these good old programs such as PGP? RSA wouldn't last a long time against a quantum computer ...

side benefit of privacy enhancing technologies like Fully Homomorphic Encryption: they're resistant to quantum attacks (e,g. Post-Quantum ready crypto :)

C.f.: https://github.com/homenc/HElib , https://github.com/IBM/fhe-toolkit-macos , etc.

Thank you for this. Inspiring. Missing from pqcrypto.org .

Karl

There is proof inside many peoples' electronics. Proof that a marketing group would contract development of a frightening virus. A virus that responds to peoples' keystrokes and browsing habits, and changes what people see on their devices. A virus that alters political behavior en masse, for profit.

There is proof inside many peoples' electronics. Proof that a marketing group would contract development of a frightening virus. A virus that responds to peoples' keystrokes and browsing habits, and changes what people see on their devices. A virus that alters political behavior en masse, for profit.

There is proof inside many peoples' electronics. Proof that a marketing group would contract development of a frightening virus. A virus that responds to peoples' keystrokes and browsing habits, and changes what people see on their devices. A virus that alters political behavior en masse, for profit.

On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 19:56:52 +0000 таракан wrote:

But anyway as you described it, anything such an impenetrable communication framework that would be really dangerous for 'the actual system' (eg the big thing who decided all the sudden we all had to wear masks all over the world)

Tarakan, so how's the fascist flu farce in russia going?

About the fascist farce and the "law of the masks" over the planet, this is like the "Reichstag Fire" technique... you put the virus somewhere (by accident or by malevolence) and you start to use it as a pretext to make the whole world submitting to your laws and you blame normal people for propagating the infection because they refuse to wear "the mask". We live in a small community of 7 billion souls, all provided with a smartphone and driven by collective fears and psychoses. That's hilarious to see all these idiots with their useless masks who think they're doing something great. If there was such a lethal virus, there would be piles of bodies in the streets everywhere by now. It's just one more of these "mutating" viruses probably resulting from a combination of pollution, greed, malevolence, human experimentation and other similar manipulations. And so what are we doing about that? Nothing... We let them imposing their pseudo-scientific laws with their limited knowledge of what really virus are... By now many people start to understand that the Covid-19 isn't exactly a biological virus... more a virus in the mind itself... collective delusion and dementia.

On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 02:14:26AM +0000, таракан wrote:

About the fascist farce and the "law of the masks" over the planet,

Hey hey, Lord Of The Masks :)

this is like the "Reichstag Fire" technique... you put the virus somewhere (by accident or by malevolence) and you start to use it as a pretext to make the whole world submitting to your laws and you blame normal people for propagating the infection because they refuse to wear "the mask".

We live in a small community of 7 billion souls, all provided with a smartphone and driven by collective fears and psychoses.

That's hilarious to see all these idiots with their useless masks who think they're doing something great. If there was such a lethal virus, there would be piles of bodies in the streets everywhere by now.

In the context of virii, wearing a mask apparently reduces the effective "spittle transmission" range, if -you- are infected - which is a potential benefit to those you may come 'close' to. If this virus were "bad", then wearing masks may well be a community service, and not doing so could be taken as Georgian Guidestones programming results...

It's just one more of these "mutating" viruses probably resulting from a combination of pollution, greed, malevolence, human experimentation and other similar manipulations.

And so what are we doing about that? Nothing... We let them imposing their pseudo-scientific laws with their limited knowledge of what really virus are...

By now many people start to understand that the Covid-19 isn't exactly a biological virus... more a virus in the mind itself... collective delusion and dementia.

<insert appropriate level of condescending superiority here> Have to agree that the mind is the primary virus.

I'm in the USA and somebody mentioned CHAZ earlier, an autonomous secession zone that sprouted here, which is inspiring. I believe we need reliable secure logging of such things (restricted to the areas the residents want it in) so as to know we can have future discourse around the issues they struggle through. Sustainable public news on them written by residents, and distribution of such news, would help, as well as collaboration between them which could possibly be done with a blockchain wiki synchronized via ham radio, say. I'm not near anything myself.

Any thoughts?

Not sure if CHAZ is the Paris Commune or even could have any relation with it... Anyway yes in general there is a need for a system which can provide news, information - and this could be shaped as a bulletin or a gazette. In a way that its origin (e.g. authors, publication) could not be tampered with. In my opinion of there would be a renewal of Cypherpunk movement, they would be more or less the sole consumer of their own technology. Eg they would use the system to brodcast news to each others in such a way that news content cannot be altered and that the identity of the authors cannot be established. PKI + internet is certainly not the answer to that. Blockchain + Ham Radio may be the right solution. making robust crypto algos using non-digital technology is not easy but surprinsingly it's possible. Such crypto devices uses 'basic' components which can be manufactured outside China without too much problems. So yes a blockchain using ham radio and crypto on non-digital devices may be a solution. No PGP here, no PKI - at least in the usual meaning.

On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 07:23:34PM +0000, таракан wrote:

My understanding of cypherpunks is that they are/were a group of people trying to defeat evil things such as, indeed, Clearview and using their deep knowledge of cryptography to counter the use of digital technologies by a fascist power (imagine the Third Reich equipped with computers...)

Tracking/Controlling people isn't really knew but let us say there was always ... ways to escape... to find another land, another ID, where there was no question.

We ought remember that the world is ever changing, intentions ever in play - the Covid event is cause for some to push for their "fascist utopia", with "immunity" passes/passports, human tracking, and literally global per human tracking. Certain freedoms and localities of exemption from the past, are all (afaict) under attack. I.e., we must remain more than vigilant, but pro-active, and ideally consider those beyond ourselves - if all my actual neighbours are tracked/monitored, then I am left standing out in the crowd as the odd one out, the one to literally target. On this basis, we have no real option but to establish freedom, and the right to privacy, for all. Any exception will be used against us. I do not accept the giving up of the right to privacy.

Think about the fictional character of Jean Valjean in "Les Misérables"(the book by Victor Hugo) ... As a convict he wore a mark on the arm, identifying him and had his infamous condition as a former forcat noted in his passport. This doesn't prevented him to become a notable, a rich entrepreuneur named Monsieur Madeleine.

The action is at the beginning of the XIX century in Post-revolutionary France.

Now imagine the same man in ... 2020... an escaped forcat... how can he live?, how can he change his identity? How can he transfer funds? Anything he will do, any move he will make will be noticed, tracked, recorded. The law enforcement will look at him everywhere , in all possible databases and if he wants to have a new French passport "the hard way", he shall have to tamper protected memory and insert false the records inside a biometric passport, which is extremely difficult. Corruption and social enginering may not work any more and making fake French passport should involve deep knowledge of cryptography...

Yes, and implicit in the words you use here, is an acquiescence. Consequent to acquiescence, is "usage by tptb". Biometric ID will never be limited to a "secure" chip in your passport - the centralised beast computer will instantaneously confirm you, regardless of document/chip you carry.

Who can do this? Only Cypherpunks.

What you're saying is true, but unfortunately entirely insufficient. If I believed that a master passport hacker would provide sufficient escape from the beast, I woul personally become one. But that would be almost useless. Why? Because each ID hack is a temporary (at best!) plugging of one hole in the bucket. And this plugging of holes is EXACTLY what the powers that be want competent people to be doing. Why? Because they are left relatively free to go on and enslave the entire world, and so ultimately we few stand out in the crowd of compliant sheeple anyway. Systemically for the sociopaths, pathways of courageous challenge achieving limited and ever temporary results for passionate and principled individuals, is a very good thing for sociopaths - these "plug a hole in the bucket" "opportunities" are EXACTLY what the oligarch sociopath ordered. Today's "valiant hacker" is yesterday's valiant Knight of the realm.

It can be argued that only 'criminals' should care about changing their identity but if you are targeted by a fascist regime, getting a new ID is a question of life and death.

yet to my understanding, escaping and defeating the net which is building itself, making the world as a gigantic jail, should be the mission of cypherpunks, or to whatever organization that would succeed to them.

Imagine a real fascist power taking control of the entire planet , how much time they need to seek and destroy opponents or individuals listed as potential dangers? maybe just one hour...

Yes this is what we must realise - we have no option but to handle, truly handle, the whole system. What to do? We must establish certain fundamental human rights as inalienable: - privacy - travel - private and anonymous travel - speech - survival - the right to do those things needed for our survival - collect water, grow food and medicine, build housing, make things, trade Let's create our shared world,

On 06/26/2020 04:54 PM, таракан wrote: <snip>

My understanding of Cypherpunks is - as per their Manifesto - that they are trying to build privacy in a world where privacy is becoming a crime.

I thought recently that the biggest 'weapon' against a fascism regime would be to create the inability for that fascist regime to track, locate, monitor and spy someone.

That's pretty much what I'm still up to. Regarding all the crap, cypherpunks lists had just as much back in the 90s. And crap -- however that shows up for you -- is pretty much unavoidable, for any list, site or system that doesn't censor. Consider Freenet, for example. Or Tor onion sites. The point is that you can filter the list however you like. Or subscribe to a version of the list that's been filtered for you. Back in the 90s, I subscribed to fcpunx back then, to avoid the worst of it. Someone could do something similar now, but the volume is so low that it'd hardly be worth it. Just filter in your mail client. <snip>

On 06/26/2020 10:05 PM, Punk-Stasi 2.0 wrote:

On Fri, 26 Jun 2020 23:54:01 +0000 таракан wrote:

...

Well I guess Cypherpunks aren't necessarily trying to destroy governments, there are plenty of organizations doing that very well... especially their own secret services.

My understanding of Cypherpunks is - as per their Manifesto - that they are trying to build privacy in a world where privacy is becoming a crime.

https://www.activism.net/cypherpunk/crypto-anarchy.html

.......................................................................... Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@netcom.com | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero 408-688-5409 | knowledge, reputations, information markets, W.A.S.T.E.: Aptos, CA | black markets, collapse of governments. Higher Power: 2^756839 | PGP Public Key: by arrangement.

Yeah, that's a decent list. As I've understood it, however, "collapse of governments" is the expected result, once the rest are effectively in place. Eliminating a particular government through armed struggle has typically led either to another government, or to a failed state. But if you create the basis of functional anarchy, government is superfluous. <snip>

On Fri, Jun 26, 2020, 21:28 Shawn K. Quinn wrote: <SNIP> Fucking love you, Shawn. F words for you, hahahaha!!! <3 But, sorry, moderation in our specific case would be censorship... Who, in this world or in all the other ones, would accept a message of mine, for example? I was and I am a moderator in a few other lists, so I do not trust the other moderators for good personal reasons. I can be useful, but not 100% fair without all the informations behind a single message. It can be bullshit, but it can be someone sincerely asking for help. And not all the moderators are good persons. Do you understand my sad point of view? :-/

On Fri, 26 Jun 2020 19:27:44 -0500 "Shawn K. Quinn" wrote:

Yes, this specifically includes Jews and people of color, as well as LGBTQ+ populations and other marginalized groups.

quinn is just your typical jew-fascist and outright asshole pretending that jews - who are obscenely 'overrepresented' in all criminal enterprises, are 'marginalized' . notice the double dishonesty of also pretending that people who are actually 'marginalized', people who are not white like quinn, are in the same boat as jews. sorry quinn, I can't understand what you're saying, your mouth is full of goldman sachs' cock.

On Jun 26, 2020, at 8:28 PM, Shawn K. Quinn wrote:

the ideal form of the cypherpunk

Was Tim May. I suggest you go find him in the Usenet and cypherpunk archives, and read what he said himself. Come back after you’ve uncurled your hair. Cheers, RAH Who was lit on fire a time or two here, himself, Itellyawhut…

On Fri, Jun 26, 2020, 8:28 PM Shawn K. Quinn wrote:

On 6/26/20 18:19, таракан wrote:

...

I am a Mathematician and involved in "industrial" cryptography. However, I am interested in the Cypherpunk movement as described by the Cypherpunk's manifesto.

I am unsure if this mailing list still relates to the original Cypherpunk movement... Obviously it contains many inordinate messages containing vulgar terms.

I'm still scratching my head wondering what flagrant racism, antisemitism, etc have to do with the cypherpunk movement and/or securing technology through encryption.

I see this behavior that spreads arbitrary blame of groups, and casts the forum to observers as holding such blame prominently, in other open channels on the internet. Is this something you see? I see

the ideal form of the cypherpunk movement as egalitarian, where those of all ethnicities and backgrounds are treated equally and given the same chance to participate in beneficial social and political change. Yes, this specifically includes Jews and people of color, as well as LGBTQ+ populations and other marginalized groups.

As someone who has participated in stimulating the disruptive behaviors, it is relieving to hear words countering them. Part of me dreams of making a bot to do so. Honestly, if you're going to shut out some people, or use exclusionary

language such as well-recognized slurs that are avoided by people who use the word "fuck" like they would use salt and pepper on bland food, then you're no better than the authorities you pretend to hate. United we stand, divided we fall.

This list is not about harm. Karl Semich

There is proof inside many peoples' electronics. Proof that a marketing group would contract development of a frightening virus. A virus that responds to peoples' keystrokes and browsing habits, and changes what people see on their devices. A virus that alters political behavior en masse, for profit.