Clue to So-Called Missing Jim Bell-AP Messages
X-Sender: tcmay@mail.got.net Message-Id: <a05010401b6829912c4bc@[207.111.241.18]> In-Reply-To: <200101082217.RAA29708@johnson.mail.mindspring.net> References: <200101082217.RAA29708@johnson.mail.mindspring.net> Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 14:59:33 -0800 To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>, cypherpunks@cyberpass.net From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net> Subject: Re: Bell Case Subpoena Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" At 5:09 PM -0500 1/8/01, John Young wrote:
Today at 4:30 PM two Treasury agents, Tom Jack and Matthew Mc Whirr, served me a Subpoena to Testify Before Grand Jury, in US District Court of Western Washington, Seattle, WA, on January 25, 2001, 9:00 AM. Robb London, AUSA, is the applicant.
The subpoena states in bold caps "We request that you do not disclose the existence of this subpoena, because such a disclosure may make it more difficult to conduct the investigation." ... Please provide any and all documents, papers, letters, computer disks, photographs, notes, objects, information, or other items in your possession or under your control, including electronically stored or computer records, which:
1. Name, mention, describe, discuss, involve or relate to James Dalton Bell, a/k/a Jim Bell, or
By the way, John, thanks for the "heads up." I purged my archives of Jim Bell e-mail sent directly to me, though I left on my system the e-mail he copied the list on. (Yes, I purged the back-ups, too. A good reason not to back up e-mail to CD-Rs.) --Tim May -- Timothy C. May tcmay@got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns
On 01/04/2020 03:03 PM, John Young wrote:
X-Sender: tcmay@mail.got.net Message-Id: <a05010401b6829912c4bc@[207.111.241.18]> In-Reply-To: <200101082217.RAA29708@johnson.mail.mindspring.net> References: <200101082217.RAA29708@johnson.mail.mindspring.net> Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 14:59:33 -0800 To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>, cypherpunks@cyberpass.net From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net> Subject: Re: Bell Case Subpoena Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
At 5:09 PM -0500 1/8/01, John Young wrote:
Today at 4:30 PM two Treasury agents, Tom Jack and Matthew Mc Whirr, served me a Subpoena to Testify Before Grand Jury, in US District Court of Western Washington, Seattle, WA, on January 25, 2001, 9:00 AM. Robb London, AUSA, is the applicant.
The subpoena states in bold caps "We request that you do not disclose the existence of this subpoena, because such a disclosure may make it more difficult to conduct the investigation." ... Please provide any and all documents, papers, letters, computer disks, photographs, notes, objects, information, or other items in your possession or under your control, including electronically stored or computer records, which:
1. Name, mention, describe, discuss, involve or relate to James Dalton Bell, a/k/a Jim Bell, or
By the way, John, thanks for the "heads up." I purged my archives of Jim Bell e-mail sent directly to me, though I left on my system the e-mail he copied the list on.
(Yes, I purged the back-ups, too. A good reason not to back up e-mail to CD-Rs.)
--Tim May
I thought that was obvious. And I remember seeing new of it on the list. But I don't have any backups that old. Every few years, I burn anything that's not related to what I'm doing currently. Literally.
If I can not so discretely give a little ACK to you, John and others, for the demonstrations, old and new, of dignity in the face of considerable balances of confronting considerations - not always an easy task. To give a little love, to demonstrate a little vulnerability, in the face of stubborn and angry systems of authority and "authority", is generous at the same time as it is caring. On behalf of all, kudos, and thank you! On Sat, Jan 04, 2020 at 05:03:39PM -0500, John Young wrote:
X-Sender: tcmay@mail.got.net Message-Id: <a05010401b6829912c4bc@[207.111.241.18]> In-Reply-To: <200101082217.RAA29708@johnson.mail.mindspring.net> References: <200101082217.RAA29708@johnson.mail.mindspring.net> Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 14:59:33 -0800 To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>, cypherpunks@cyberpass.net From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net> Subject: Re: Bell Case Subpoena Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
At 5:09 PM -0500 1/8/01, John Young wrote:
Today at 4:30 PM two Treasury agents, Tom Jack and Matthew Mc Whirr, served me a Subpoena to Testify Before Grand Jury, in US District Court of Western Washington, Seattle, WA, on January 25, 2001, 9:00 AM. Robb London, AUSA, is the applicant.
The subpoena states in bold caps "We request that you do not disclose the existence of this subpoena, because such a disclosure may make it more difficult to conduct the investigation." ... Please provide any and all documents, papers, letters, computer disks, photographs, notes, objects, information, or other items in your possession or under your control, including electronically stored or computer records, which:
1. Name, mention, describe, discuss, involve or relate to James Dalton Bell, a/k/a Jim Bell, or
By the way, John, thanks for the "heads up." I purged my archives of Jim Bell e-mail sent directly to me, though I left on my system the e-mail he copied the list on.
(Yes, I purged the back-ups, too. A good reason not to back up e-mail to CD-Rs.)
--Tim May -- Timothy C. May tcmay@got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns
The Tim May message came from the cpunks archives. Tim died not long ago. The archives hold quite a bit of discussion about prosecution of Jim Bell and CJ Parker and various subpoenas disclosed and presumbably some which were not. Likely several persons were contacted directly by the prosecutors but not shared on the list. That continues. No question cpunks has served as a waterhole to be spied by predators. So too the whole Internet, public and private archives, anonymizers, so on. From the beginning there have been plants of informers, instigators, provocateurs, and kin stirring the pot. IP hosts and system administrators remain the primary sources of data, overt and covert. Multi-level log files are ubiquitous, from identifying packets to end to end foolhardists. No way to use the Internet undetected. Programs that promise that are deceptive, Tor only one of the ploys. Privacy has been a sham from the get-go, Comsec and infosec, crypto in particular, are porous by design, ignorance, opportunism, profit. Open source a cartoonish protective condom, adherents of it are con artists. Cpunks like leak sites are stings, witting or unwitting. Mea culpa. Jim Bell is a Sabu, subject to federal sanctions as ex-con if not willing to solicit supporters and unwary victims. There are thousands of them. Those most loudly anti-authority are the experts of betrayal for kings coin and to avoid going back to jail. Cpunks archives offer much to support this critique, other archives and live action even more. Cyber security is a huge racket profiting from deliberately ineffective cybersec.
On 01/07/2020 02:55 AM, John Young wrote: [tl;dr - You can't trust anyone involved.] Makes sense to me. I may well have what was called FCPUNKS from the mid 90s through maybe 2001 or 2002. However, sharing it would be too risky, unless I redacted or randomized all headers. Which would make it kinda useless, no? Maybe I'll do it, as a public service, just before dying. So hey, I'll dig through some old backups. <SNIP>
Does it contain messages that the Venona files almost completely lack?1995 messages that: 1. Lack 'jim bell'2. Lack 'jimbell@pacifier.com'3. Lack 'assassination politics'4. Lack ' ap ' except in contexts other than 'assassination politics', such as Associated Press or 'killer ap '5. Lack references to 'bell', as in 'that damn bell', or 'that idiot bell'. Jim Bell On Tuesday, January 7, 2020, 07:23:19 AM PST, Mirimir <mirimir@riseup.net> wrote: On 01/07/2020 02:55 AM, John Young wrote: [tl;dr - You can't trust anyone involved.] Makes sense to me. I may well have what was called FCPUNKS from the mid 90s through maybe 2001 or 2002. However, sharing it would be too risky, unless I redacted or randomized all headers. Which would make it kinda useless, no? Maybe I'll do it, as a public service, just before dying. So hey, I'll dig through some old backups. <SNIP>
On 01/07/2020 12:58 PM, jim bell wrote:
Does it contain messages that the Venona files almost completely lack?1995 messages that: 1. Lack 'jim bell'2. Lack 'jimbell@pacifier.com'3. Lack 'assassination politics'4. Lack ' ap ' except in contexts other than 'assassination politics', such as Associated Press or 'killer ap '5. Lack references to 'bell', as in 'that damn bell', or 'that idiot bell'. Jim Bell
OK, I'll see what I can find. I vaguely remember retaining that stuff, over the years. But I also did a major "burn anything iffy" maybe a decade ago. So ??? I'm a little surprised than nobody else has apparently retained it.
On Tuesday, January 7, 2020, 07:23:19 AM PST, Mirimir <mirimir@riseup.net> wrote:
On 01/07/2020 02:55 AM, John Young wrote:
[tl;dr - You can't trust anyone involved.]
Makes sense to me.
I may well have what was called FCPUNKS from the mid 90s through maybe 2001 or 2002. However, sharing it would be too risky, unless I redacted or randomized all headers. Which would make it kinda useless, no?
Maybe I'll do it, as a public service, just before dying.
So hey, I'll dig through some old backups.
<SNIP>
Yes, the cpunk archives have a slew of 1995 (before and after too) about Jim Bell, Assassination Politics, Jim's email addresses, and related matters. Takes a bit of reading to find them, searches don't turn up all of them. 1995 is less bountiful than other years (say, 2019 spasms) but hardly insignificant and offer worthwhile reading on a variety of topics other than the low-volume AP stuff. Jim was in the pokey during this period so that reduced his postings. However Jim was sending out postal mails to compensate for the online lack. At 02:58 PM 1/7/2020, jim bell wrote:
Does it contain messages that the Venona files almost completely lack? 1995 messages that:
1. Lack 'jim bell' 2. Lack 'jimbell@pacifier.com' 3. Lack 'assassination politics' 4. Lack ' ap ' except in contexts other than 'assassination politics', such as Associated Press or 'killer ap ' 5. Lack references to 'bell', as in 'that damn bell', or 'that idiot bell'.
Jim Bell
On Tuesday, January 7, 2020, 07:23:19 AM PST, Mirimir <mirimir@riseup.net> wrote:
On 01/07/2020 02:55 AM, John Young wrote:
[tl;dr - You can't trust anyone involved.]
Makes sense to me.
I may well have what was called FCPUNKS from the mid 90s through maybe 2001 or 2002. However, sharing it would be too risky, unless I redacted or randomized all headers. Which would make it kinda useless, no?
Maybe I'll do it, as a public service, just before dying.
So hey, I'll dig through some old backups.
<SNIP>
The subpoena states in bold caps "We request that you do not disclose the existence of this subpoena, because such a disclosure may make it more difficult to conduct the investigation." ... Please provide any and all documents, papers, letters, computer disks, photographs, notes, objects, information, or other items in your possession or under your control, including electronically stored or computer records, which:
1. Name, mention, describe, discuss, involve or relate to James Dalton Bell, a/k/a Jim Bell, or
By the way, John, thanks for the "heads up." I purged my archives of Jim Bell e-mail sent directly to me, though I left on my system the e-mail he copied the list on.
Doesn't this implicate you? Are you trying to protect him?
(Yes, I purged the back-ups, too. A good reason not to back up e-mail to CD-Rs.)
--Tim May
Hmm, your header says you're John Young.... \0xD
On Mon, Jan 06, 2020 at 06:44:20PM -0600, \0xDynamite wrote:
The subpoena states in bold caps "We request that you do not disclose the existence of this subpoena, because such a disclosure may make it more difficult to conduct the investigation." ... Please provide any and all documents, papers, letters, computer disks, photographs, notes, objects, information, or other items in your possession or under your control, including electronically stored or computer records, which:
1. Name, mention, describe, discuss, involve or relate to James Dalton Bell, a/k/a Jim Bell, or
By the way, John, thanks for the "heads up." I purged my archives of Jim Bell e-mail sent directly to me, though I left on my system the e-mail he copied the list on.
Doesn't this implicate you? Are you trying to protect him?
(Yes, I purged the back-ups, too. A good reason not to back up e-mail to CD-Rs.)
--Tim May
Hmm, your header says you're John Young....
\0xD
You are aware that that email (as forwarded) is from nearly 20 years ago?
You'll notice whose prominently missing from this convo. Jim Bell. Know why? He didn't really want an answer. He wants a reason to be paranoid. Nutjob Rr On 1/4/20 2:03 PM, John Young wrote:
X-Sender: tcmay@mail.got.net Message-Id: <a05010401b6829912c4bc@[207.111.241.18]> In-Reply-To: <200101082217.RAA29708@johnson.mail.mindspring.net> References: <200101082217.RAA29708@johnson.mail.mindspring.net> Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 14:59:33 -0800 To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>, cypherpunks@cyberpass.net From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net> Subject: Re: Bell Case Subpoena Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
At 5:09 PM -0500 1/8/01, John Young wrote:
Today at 4:30 PM two Treasury agents, Tom Jack and Matthew Mc Whirr, served me a Subpoena to Testify Before Grand Jury, in US District Court of Western Washington, Seattle, WA, on January 25, 2001, 9:00 AM. Robb London, AUSA, is the applicant.
The subpoena states in bold caps "We request that you do not disclose the existence of this subpoena, because such a disclosure may make it more difficult to conduct the investigation." ... Please provide any and all documents, papers, letters, computer disks, photographs, notes, objects, information, or other items in your possession or under your control, including electronically stored or computer records, which:
1. Name, mention, describe, discuss, involve or relate to James Dalton Bell, a/k/a Jim Bell, or
By the way, John, thanks for the "heads up." I purged my archives of Jim Bell e-mail sent directly to me, though I left on my system the e-mail he copied the list on.
(Yes, I purged the back-ups, too. A good reason not to back up e-mail to CD-Rs.)
--Tim May
You'll notice whose prominently missing from this convo.
Jim Bell.
Know why?
He didn't really want an answer.
He wants a reason to be paranoid.
Nutjob
You shouldn't be so quick to judge, from afar, at that. In times of confusion and disease, nothing can be certain without doing the work. Have you done the work? Marcos
On 1/6/20 7:47 PM, \0xDynamite wrote:
You'll notice whose prominently missing from this convo.
Jim Bell.
Know why?
He didn't really want an answer.
He wants a reason to be paranoid.
Nutjob You shouldn't be so quick to judge, from afar, at that. In times of confusion and disease, nothing can be certain without doing the work.
Have you done the work?
Marcos
I think John's posting of Tim's email pretty much resolved it. Anyone who expects a US public (or private) server owner not to obey a US court order's instructions is too stupid to be using a computer on the internet. Tim wasn't stupid. He wasn't riseup and neither are the pglaf people who operate this one as what appears to be, overall, a spam catching machine. I wonder sometimes if the relevant people who analyze spam email for a living use these archives for research data. It's not much different than the tattered, abused, remnants of the former almighty USNet newsgroups. Rr Rr
Nutjob
Have you done the work?
I think John's posting of Tim's email pretty much resolved it. Anyone who expects a US public (or private) server owner not to obey a US court order's instructions is too stupid to be using a computer on the internet.
Are you saying you're willing to give away your rights? If you haven't broken a law, what is your reason to give up anything...? marxos
On 1/6/20 10:15 PM, \0xDynamite wrote:
Nutjob Have you done the work? I think John's posting of Tim's email pretty much resolved it. Anyone who expects a US public (or private) server owner not to obey a US court order's instructions is too stupid to be using a computer on the internet. Are you saying you're willing to give away your rights? If you haven't broken a law, what is your reason to give up anything...?
marxos
No. I didn't say anything remotely like that. But I will say. "You have a reading comprehension problem." Rr
On Mon, 6 Jan 2020 19:28:25 -0800 Razer <g2s@riseup.net> wrote:
You'll notice whose prominently missing from this convo.
Jim Bell.
Know why?
He didn't really want an answer.
He wants a reason to be paranoid.
"I left on my system the e-mail he copied the list on." means, I think, that TM didn't delete posts from the/his list archive. All in all, the clue doesn't give any clue as far as I can see, and JY's subject "so called missing messages" is clearly retarded since the messages ARE missing, for whatever reason. or perhaps the clue is that people partially deleted their archives to avoid helping the govt prosecute Jim. But actually deleting posts doesn't make too much sense. One could simply give an edited copy to the govt while keeping the complete archive secret....and publish it later.
Nutjob
Rr
On 1/4/20 2:03 PM, John Young wrote:
X-Sender: tcmay@mail.got.net Message-Id: <a05010401b6829912c4bc@[207.111.241.18]> In-Reply-To: <200101082217.RAA29708@johnson.mail.mindspring.net> References: <200101082217.RAA29708@johnson.mail.mindspring.net> Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 14:59:33 -0800 To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>, cypherpunks@cyberpass.net From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net> Subject: Re: Bell Case Subpoena Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
At 5:09 PM -0500 1/8/01, John Young wrote:
Today at 4:30 PM two Treasury agents, Tom Jack and Matthew Mc Whirr, served me a Subpoena to Testify Before Grand Jury, in US District Court of Western Washington, Seattle, WA, on January 25, 2001, 9:00 AM. Robb London, AUSA, is the applicant.
The subpoena states in bold caps "We request that you do not disclose the existence of this subpoena, because such a disclosure may make it more difficult to conduct the investigation." ... Please provide any and all documents, papers, letters, computer disks, photographs, notes, objects, information, or other items in your possession or under your control, including electronically stored or computer records, which:
1. Name, mention, describe, discuss, involve or relate to James Dalton Bell, a/k/a Jim Bell, or
By the way, John, thanks for the "heads up." I purged my archives of Jim Bell e-mail sent directly to me, though I left on my system the e-mail he copied the list on.
(Yes, I purged the back-ups, too. A good reason not to back up e-mail to CD-Rs.)
--Tim May
On Tue, Jan 07, 2020 at 01:11:46AM -0300, Punk-Stasi 2.0 wrote:
On Mon, 6 Jan 2020 19:28:25 -0800 Razer <g2s@riseup.net> wrote:
You'll notice whose prominently missing from this convo.
Jim Bell.
Know why?
He didn't really want an answer.
He wants a reason to be paranoid.
"I left on my system the e-mail he copied the list on." means, I think, that TM didn't delete posts from the/his list archive.
All in all, the clue doesn't give any clue as far as I can see, and JY's subject "so called missing messages" is clearly retarded since the messages ARE missing, for whatever reason.
or perhaps the clue is that people partially deleted their archives to avoid helping the govt prosecute Jim. But actually deleting posts doesn't make too much sense. One could simply give an edited copy to the govt while keeping the complete archive secret....and publish it later.
Because the gov.t would surely never entrap folks they suspect of hiding something gov wants, e.g. by issuing a subpoena and later seizing computer equipment and backups? But more logically, a rational gov that actually wanted the data would obtain a seizure warrant and seize the equipment without forenotice, and thus pre-emptive (and at that moment in time, lawful) deletion of records, would therefore have been the most logical course.
Nutjob
Rr
On 1/4/20 2:03 PM, John Young wrote:
X-Sender: tcmay@mail.got.net Message-Id: <a05010401b6829912c4bc@[207.111.241.18]> In-Reply-To: <200101082217.RAA29708@johnson.mail.mindspring.net> References: <200101082217.RAA29708@johnson.mail.mindspring.net> Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 14:59:33 -0800 To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>, cypherpunks@cyberpass.net From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net> Subject: Re: Bell Case Subpoena Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
At 5:09 PM -0500 1/8/01, John Young wrote:
Today at 4:30 PM two Treasury agents, Tom Jack and Matthew Mc Whirr, served me a Subpoena to Testify Before Grand Jury, in US District Court of Western Washington, Seattle, WA, on January 25, 2001, 9:00 AM. Robb London, AUSA, is the applicant.
The subpoena states in bold caps "We request that you do not disclose the existence of this subpoena, because such a disclosure may make it more difficult to conduct the investigation." ... Please provide any and all documents, papers, letters, computer disks, photographs, notes, objects, information, or other items in your possession or under your control, including electronically stored or computer records, which:
1. Name, mention, describe, discuss, involve or relate to James Dalton Bell, a/k/a Jim Bell, or
By the way, John, thanks for the "heads up." I purged my archives of Jim Bell e-mail sent directly to me, though I left on my system the e-mail he copied the list on.
(Yes, I purged the back-ups, too. A good reason not to back up e-mail to CD-Rs.)
--Tim May
On Tue, 7 Jan 2020 15:53:25 +1100 Zenaan Harkness <zen@freedbms.net> wrote:
Because the gov.t would surely never entrap folks they suspect of hiding something gov wants, e.g. by issuing a subpoena and later seizing computer equipment and backups?
that's a possibility.
But more logically, a rational gov that actually wanted the data would obtain a seizure warrant and seize the equipment without forenotice, and thus pre-emptive (and at that moment in time, lawful) deletion of records, would therefore have been the most logical course.
so the theory is that people who kept archives, first and foremost gilmore, deleted them so that the govt didn't get the data? Still the message from TM quoted in this thread explicitly states that May didn't delete his copy of list messages, only personal messages. So, the theory doesn't fully add up. also, JB could certainly add some light here. What sort of role did his messages to a public mailing list play in the criminal charade that the US department of 'justice' conducted agaisnt him?
Okay, I saw a very old (19 years ago) email. I read it. I didn't have a comment. Do you have a question? Jim Bell On Monday, January 6, 2020, 07:29:05 PM PST, Razer <g2s@riseup.net> wrote: You'll notice whose prominently missing from this convo. Jim Bell. Know why? He didn't really want an answer. He wants a reason to be paranoid. Nutjob Rr On 1/4/20 2:03 PM, John Young wrote:
X-Sender: tcmay@mail.got.net Message-Id: <a05010401b6829912c4bc@[207.111.241.18]> In-Reply-To: <200101082217.RAA29708@johnson.mail.mindspring.net> References: <200101082217.RAA29708@johnson.mail.mindspring.net> Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 14:59:33 -0800 To: John Young <jya@pipeline.com>, cypherpunks@cyberpass.net From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net> Subject: Re: Bell Case Subpoena Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
At 5:09 PM -0500 1/8/01, John Young wrote:
Today at 4:30 PM two Treasury agents, Tom Jack and Matthew Mc Whirr, served me a Subpoena to Testify Before Grand Jury, in US District Court of Western Washington, Seattle, WA, on January 25, 2001, 9:00 AM. Robb London, AUSA, is the applicant.
The subpoena states in bold caps "We request that you do not disclose the existence of this subpoena, because such a disclosure may make it more difficult to conduct the investigation." ... Please provide any and all documents, papers, letters, computer disks, photographs, notes, objects, information, or other items in your possession or under your control, including electronically stored or computer records, which:
1. Name, mention, describe, discuss, involve or relate to James Dalton Bell, a/k/a Jim Bell, or
By the way, John, thanks for the "heads up." I purged my archives of Jim Bell e-mail sent directly to me, though I left on my system the e-mail he copied the list on.
(Yes, I purged the back-ups, too. A good reason not to back up e-mail to CD-Rs.)
--Tim May
participants (7)
-
\0xDynamite -
jim bell -
John Young -
Mirimir -
Punk-Stasi 2.0 -
Razer -
Zenaan Harkness