On Wed, 3 Feb 2021 12:23:01 -0500 Karl wrote:

On 2/2/21, Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0 wrote:

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On Tue, 2 Feb 2021 14:44:34 -0500 Karl wrote:

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On 2/2/21, Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0 wrote:

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On Mon, 1 Feb 2021 15:48:18 -0500 Karl wrote:

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Juan, you don't mean these things you say here.

Of course I mean what I say. And I say what I mean.

And I'm one of the many reincarnations of hope, but that doesn't mean people should ever make decisions based off of that.

That sounds kinda cryptic so I guess it's aligned with the cryptographic principles of the list.

Well, the universe sure is cryptic. But I am just mirroring that what you say is hard to believe in a way that is relevant to the conversation, assuming we are both speaking dictionary english.

I listed a bunch of basic facts that you are methodically ignoring. And you keep pretending I don't know what I'm talking about or 'don't mean it'. That's both insulting and a complete waste of time on your part. (and mine)

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because it's not slavery nor 'human trafficking'. Like I said, 'human trafficking' is an euphemism/codeword/propaganda term for prostitution.

Nah, you have misinformation. Sex work (prosititution) is selling sex for money. Human trafficking is selling other humans for money. They overlap because most slavery is for prostitution (sex work),

nah, you're just repeating propaganda, pretending that prostitution overlaps with 'human trafficking'. of course, whatever alleged problems are there in the prostitution market are the fault of the government(duh!) that makes prostitution 'illegal'. so again, the solution here to whatever alleged problems there are is abolition of government, not more government and more government propaganda (like the one you keep posting)

where the money goes to the pimp instead of the woman. It's not true of all sex work.

same thing. Whatever problems there supposedly are, are the result of government intervention.

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Alternatively, if the term is supposed to refer to, say, 'illegal' immigrants being taken advantage of, then the obvious solution is the abolition of state borders and the abolition of the insane idea that there's such a thing as 'illegal' immigration.

I've heard that immigrants will enter slavery in order to get into the states. I don't know a lot about it. I can imagination abolition of borders would reduce that, but we still have slavery for other reasons. I never made my trip to the desert at the southern border.

How do you feel about breaking coercive and deadly codes of totally ridiculous silence?

such as?

In the USA, slavery is hated, and human trafficking is ignored. The words are synonymous.

In the US cesspool slavery is part of the 'law of the land'. Why do you keep ignoring the most basic facts?

human trafficking is ignored

I don't think so. It's a pretty common government propaganda theme.

from dictionary.com: slavery: - the condition of being enslaved, held, or owned as human chattel or property; bondage. - a practice or institution that treats or recognizes some human beings as the legal property of others. [some synonyms listed] human trafficking:

- the illegal practice of procuring or trading in human beings for the purpose of prostitution,

yeah, first thing that is mentioned is prostitution, thanks form making my point. furthermore what does 'procuring' even mean? Posting an ad for prostitution is 'procuring' of course.

forced labor, or other forms of exploitation. [no synonyms listed]

ah yes, prostitution is 'exploitation'. Thanks for making my point, yet again.

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On the other hand, if taken literally 'human trafficking' would be the opposite of a human right, but like I said it's just propaganda.

There is no propaganda to working in an organisation where you actively rescue people from being confined, controlled, and abused, interacting with these people on a regular basis.

I'm sorry you have to argue this so much. It's nice that we're not yelling. This is a topic I care a lot about. Would you rather I consider you here a victim of human trafficking, a paid employee of a cause, or somebody who has been very misled?

I am somebody taking your propaganda apart for truth's sake.

I suppose I'll consider that, until I see a paystub, it's likely you've been illegally enslaved to post to this list against your will.

Ok, you had your fun. Don't start playing the victim when you get treated the way you deserve to be treated. Pay attention : YOU are parroting US fascist propaganda of the 'progressive' kind and I'm calling your bullshit out. I do this because I'm on the anti-government camp, out of my own free will of course.

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Maybe you shouldn't be promoting the US govt on this list? And painting the US govt as being opposed to slavery, a preposterous idea.

There are at least two different US governments: 1. the words written on paper 2. the behaviors that people actually engage in and they're blurry. On paper, the US govt is firmly opposed to slavery.

Didn't you read my previous message? The so called US constitution EXPLICITLY ENABLES SLAVERY.

ow! just trying to defend the tiny freedom avenues we have. i don't see the quote about the constitution in your message now. i'll try to find your email for what message you're talking about.

If you don't read what I write why do you bother replying. Here's my first reply to your propaganda https://lists.cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/2021-February/086600.html you completely ignored all the facts I mentioned there and in turn made this idiotic reply https://lists.cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/2021-February/086602.html "Juan, you don't mean these things you say here." I MEAN what I say.

i don't see anything about a constitution in the messages i've received from you regarding this. maybe it was dropped somewhere. the written laws we discuss outlaw slavery.

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Plus, of course, the whole notion of government and its implementation IS SLAVERY. Taxation being theft, for starters.

I try to get them rescuing the slaves they acknowledge as enslaved, before I point that out to them. It takes move through a few different disciplines of conventional study to make a clear strong argument.

sure sure. The slaves the US govt is saving...

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Most people believe in the paper and hate the actions.

Not sure what you mean. The US 'laws' are a collection of crimes against humanity, and are 'enforced' by the US govt and its supporters. (same is true for any other govt of course)

I'm just talking about helping victims of abuse. The fact that it's illegal makes it stronger, since laws have effect.

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It would be ideal if we could share human trafficking rescue avenues that are run by anarchists, but if I did that they would get obliterated by their local government's unwritten behaviors.

As I think you know the US has the highest incarceration rate on the planet and...then there is this

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_labor_in_the_United_States

oops, that looks a lot closer to actual slavery than 'human trafficking' eh? And who is responsible for 'penal labor'?

?? these are obviously both slavery.

Although enslavement due to trial by jury is still legal for now, there are a lot of illegal inhuman things that happen in prisons where people are further enslaved.

yes, so why do you pretend that the US govt and its supporters are opposed to slavery?

It's obvious the US government is crummy.

crummy?

I think you're confusing that with whether or not freedom is valuable to discuss, maybe because it's hard for you to discuss freedom from ongoing slavery, itself.

I think you have to stop pretending that I don't know what I'm saying.

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https://humantraffickinghotline.org/national-hotline-overview

"received $3.5 million through competitive funding through the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, Administration for Children and Families, Grant # 90ZV0134-01-00. The project will be financed with 71.87% of federal funds and 28.13% ($1.37 million) by non-governmental sources"

of course that '28%' of 'non govt sources' comes from 'private' fascists of the bill gates-soros kind.

It's shitty that our avenues are the ones that are "authorised".

That's not about authorisation but about getting stolen money from taxpayers and dollar holders (slaves) to use it to promote US govt propaganda.

those enslaved dollar holders often spend their money on things made by people who actually have their physical muscle enslaved, possibly by severe ongoing physical injury, as opposed to "just" their avenues of choice and income.

are you trying to downplay the most basic nature of government, i.e. it being based on extortion, theft, slavery, murder?

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People who want to end slavery should be planning how to destroy government, not taking stolen money from government.

I was thinking of people actively enslaved. Not just wanting to end it.

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Yeah well. It's obvious to me that indeed professor rat is a govt agent and harkness a trumpofascist(duh). As to you, at least in this case, you are posting US govt propaganda as well.

All 4 of us. And that's just 4 tips out of so many icebergs. (this is a united states euphemism for saying there is much much more to the situations).

Yeah well. You indeed are a US government agent now. Not me. Plus, I am still waiting for you to point out any lack of logic in what I say. If anything lacks logic here it is the pretense that so called 'NGOs' that are a front for the US govt are not evil.

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I on the other hand am not posting govcorp propaganda in any shape or form. Au contraire, what I mostly do on this list is tear apart the propaganda other people post.

Eh, I don't really like bantering, but I guess we'll all be able to describe each other accurately if we do it long enough.

yeah. The characters on the play are pretty well described already anyway.

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The things we're posting help the interests of people with a lot of money.

How am I doing that?

You disrupt community things people say. It's done pretty commonly. Your work bending that towards other disruption is heartening. It often seems the only way we survive =/

"disrupt community things" In other words, your claim is false, hand-wavy nonsense. Try again?

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Those people have probably effectively enslaved us in some way. Some of us may be viscerally and highly aware of that being the case, and that set of people may not be related to the set of people able to talk about it, but all of us can get government aid for being abused if we demonstrate real symptoms of abuse.

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I'll reply to *some* points.

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nah, you're just repeating propaganda, pretending that prostitution overlaps with 'human trafficking'.

Maybe this doesn't happen where you're from, I don't know.

It doesn't happen anywhere. It's US anti-sex propaganda. So either you know little to nothing about the anti-culture in which you live in - the US puritan fascist cesspool - or you're being dishonest.

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of course, whatever alleged problems are there in the prostitution market are the fault of the government(duh!) that makes prostitution 'illegal'.

so again, the solution here to whatever alleged problems there are is abolition of government, not more government and more government propaganda (like the one you keep posting)

There are many solutions to every problem.

This is an allegedly 'anarchist'(LMAO) mailing list and I am an anarchist, so the relevant solution here is abolition of government. Which is the the only morally correct solution by the way.

I'm down for an abolition-of-government solution to human trafficking, which is obviously just a much more personal and violent form of 'governance'.

abolition of government isn't 'obviosly a much more violent form of governance' - what are you talking about.

We'd have to make sure to prevent slavery, in the government-abolition.

that sounds like typical anti anarchist propaganda.

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In the USA, slavery is hated, and human trafficking is ignored. The words are synonymous.

In the US cesspool slavery is part of the 'law of the land'. Why do you keep ignoring the most basic facts?

I'm talking what letters and words are used and held in people's beliefs, not behavior.

Not sure what you mean. 'Legislation' in the US is clearly fascist and it is obviously enforced and supported by people in the US. The words, beliefs and behaviours are all aligned.

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human trafficking is ignored

I don't think so. It's a pretty common government propaganda theme.

We're saying the same thing, arguing about which part to focus on. Maybe I can start telling the part of the story you're focusing on. It sounds like you want to equate the slaver mafia with the united states government they basically control?

Yes, I want to focus on the crimes that the US slavers commit worldwide whereas you're focusing on their 'anti human trafficking' propaganda, which has the exact purpose of hiding their crimes and trying to pretend that they are the 'good guys'. So let me know when you start your anti US govcorp campaign instead of relaying their anti-sex, anti-prostitution propaganda.

The united nations is one of many, many organizations that produces information on human trafficking. Here is their 2020 report: https://www.unodc.org/documents/data-and-analysis/tip/2021/GLOTiP_2020_15jan... . It describes sexual slavery as around half the documented human trafficking.

here we go - 'sexual slavery'.

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I suppose I'll consider that, until I see a paystub, it's likely you've been illegally enslaved to post to this list against your will.

Ok, you had your fun. Don't start playing the victim when you get treated the way you deserve to be treated.

Somebody told you that people could ever deserve this. I'm so sorry this has happened to you.

Nobody told me what to do here. And when I'm told what to do I usually do the opposite.

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Pay attention : YOU are parroting US fascist propaganda of the 'progressive' kind and I'm calling your bullshit out. I do this because I'm on the anti-government camp, out of my own free will of course.

Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0 is speaking a language that is clear for anybody free enough to attend to its details. I'm guessing that they are saying they desperately need help.

No, I don't need help and every word I wrote is literal. Feel free to re-read my above statement as many times as you wish. It will always mean what it says. Last but not least, I am a man, so the correct pronoun here is "he'.

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If you don't read what I write why do you bother replying.

Here's my first reply to your propaganda https://lists.cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/2021-February/086600.html

I found some of it. You don't trust the law because Lincoln wasn't really that strong on Freedom, even though they signed it in?

it's pretty clear that 'The North' didn't intend to abolish slavery. It just happened as a side-effect of the civil war to keep the nazi US union. Hell the name of the FUCKING CESSPOOL is UNITED STATES!!

You also quoted that slavery is only legal in the united states as punishment for a crime the victim has been duly convicted of.

so slavery IS STILL LEGAL. What part you don't get?

You should know that slaves are often pardoned for any crimes they were forced to engage in, whether by control or in order to survive. You'd want an advocate to help this be true.

I googled this and it seems to mostly be discussed in texas on google. A survivor who had actually killed somebody was pardoned.

I don't know what you're talking about.

For me, I haven't engaged in any serious crime, but I can still be convicted in illegal ways that utilise loopholes, coercion, etc. So it's helpful to have documentation and a friend with some resources, of which there may be many on this list.

again, I don't know what you're talking about.

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you completely ignored all the facts I mentioned there and in turn made this idiotic reply

https://lists.cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/2021-February/086602.html

"Juan, you don't mean these things you say here."

I MEAN what I say.

I don't really understand what you mean =(

too bad

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I try to get them rescuing the slaves they acknowledge as enslaved, before I point that out to them. It takes move through a few different disciplines of conventional study to make a clear strong argument.

sure sure. The slaves the US govt is saving...

Nah, the US govt doesn't do too much. It's mostly churches and whatnot.

it's...what? Ah US churches. The worst kind of puritan garbage out there and their anti prostitution crusades. Thanks for making my point yet again.

I'm actually pretty scared to guess what kinds of people help these things! I'm worried they'd get hurt. Let's guess who they are when we've made it clear we're going to support them.

I am an anarchist. I support the destruction of fucking US jew-kristian churches. And you know what? I MEAN WHAT I SAY.

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so why do you pretend that the US govt and its supporters are opposed to slavery?

To try to help it be more true than it already is, so we can be free sooner.

What the hell are you saying exactly? You keep lying and helping the US govt criminals spread propaganda so that they become the 'good guys'? Talk about meaningless absurdities...

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It's obvious the US government is crummy.

crummy?

Functions as a tool of denied global systemic murder, acting with great obsession to stay that way. This is obvious, and people work hard to slowly change it.

So the US govt isn't crummy. It's the *most efficient* and most toxic criminal organization on the planet.

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I think you're confusing that with whether or not freedom is valuable to discuss, maybe because it's hard for you to discuss freedom from ongoing slavery, itself.

I think you have to stop pretending that I don't know what I'm saying.

I'm pointing out that something is making you move the conversation away from actual forced labor, and towards pretensions that it relates to politics or government.

Yes, I'm doing that to counter your government propaganda and focus on the actual criminals, that is the US govt and its 'ngos' that pretend to fight 'human trafficking'

You keep assuming in your talk that there is no such thing as modern-day slavery, and you seem unable to discuss this.

modern day slavery is the political system we live in.

This makes it clear that you are experiencing it, in a way that is very hard to understand.

I'm experiencing what? Slavery at the hands of govcorp? well yeah. Is that news?

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those enslaved dollar holders often spend their money on things made by people who actually have their physical muscle enslaved, possibly by severe ongoing physical injury, as opposed to "just" their avenues of choice and income.

are you trying to downplay the most basic nature of government, i.e. it being based on extortion, theft, slavery, murder?

No, I'm just free to talk as if I've been exposed to slavery that is worse and more personal.

worse than being in government jails? Oh wait, you just keep parroting bullshit from US TV and pentagon sponsored TV series, sorry. Yeah, I'm sure that 'reality' is pretty bad.

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People who want to end slavery should be planning how to destroy government, not taking stolen money from government.

Regarding anarchism, this is faulty logic. You have more power if you steal money from your government.

1) the govt doesn't 'own' any money. All they have, they stole it. When you take govt money you just become an accomplice of government theft. The exact opposite of what any actual anarchist would do. 2) the govt only gives money to their accomplices and other useful idiots who are not a threat, at all, to government. So, 'regarding anarchism', it's now obvious who is the one using faulty logic, and it isn't me.

You just need to avoid all their traps and influence.

Yeah sure. So you take stolen money, but you think you're so clever you're going to use the stolen money against the thieves. "The end justifies the means", oldest govcorp slogan ever. And not only that, you are arrogant enough to believe you're going to outsmart the biggest criminals in town.

[This is a debate I haven't been exposed to, to know the details of.

now you have

On Sat, 6 Feb 2021 14:34:57 -0500 Karl wrote:

On 2/6/21, Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0 wrote:

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I'll reply to *some* points.

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nah, you're just repeating propaganda, pretending that prostitution overlaps with 'human trafficking'.

Maybe this doesn't happen where you're from, I don't know.

It doesn't happen anywhere. It's US anti-sex propaganda. So either you know little to nothing about the anti-culture in which you live in - the US puritan fascist cesspool - or you're being dishonest.

Punk, I bumped into a weirdo. He said I had to draw a square on the wall, and if I ever told anybody about him, the instructions, or the square, he would kill me!

Do you like to speak in riddles? Or do you do it because you think it serves some purpose? Problem is, I don't understand your riddles. I can try half guessing, but it takes effort and makes the discussion even harder to follow.

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There are many solutions to every problem.

This is an allegedly 'anarchist'(LMAO) mailing list and I am an anarchist, so the relevant solution here is abolition of government. Which is the the only morally correct solution by the way.

I'll keep this quoted in the hope that you do too. Helps us have some shared ground, to know that you chose to say that.

I don't need to keep it quoted. But it looks like something you need to keep in mind. So do that. Keep that in mind, not on your computer screen. You know, you write in an articulated/elaborated way and you don't sound like a fool or crazy to me. At the same time you keep saying you are crazy or hinting that you don't remember what you wrote an hour ago. Those two things put together don't make sense. So my tentative conclusion is that you're not being serious.

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I'm down for an abolition-of-government solution to human trafficking, which is obviously just a much more personal and violent form of 'governance'.

abolition of government isn't 'obviosly a much more violent form of governance' - what are you talking about.

Let me say that part again, which looks grammatically correct when I review what you quoted: "that thing we're pretending is propaganda, is obviously just a much more personal and violent form of 'governance'"

Sorry, your clarification doesn't really clarify much. Last try : "I'm down for an abolition-of-government solution to human trafficking" Ok, that statement is clear and non-ambiguous. But then you add "which is obviously just a much more personal and violent form of 'governance'" What is the word "which" pointing at? What is this thing you're describing as "a much more personal and violent form of 'governance'"? As far as I can tell you're saying that abolition of government is a more violent form of government. Which is absurd.

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We'd have to make sure to prevent slavery, in the government-abolition.

that sounds like typical anti anarchist propaganda.

? When you abolish government you pretty much solve every problem because you can directly address them instead of going through bureaucrats and enforcement officers.

No. When you abolish government, all the problems that governmetn causes dissapear. That's the whole point of abolishing government.

But often people leave stuff out when planning.

social planners are interested in planning. Social planners are the opposite of anarchists.

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Not sure what you mean. 'Legislation' in the US is clearly fascist and it is obviously enforced and supported by people in the US. The words, beliefs and behaviours are all aligned.

Since I'm the dirty cop here, you gotta believe me that the written law is different from what is going on here.

There's no reason for me to believe you and ignore plain evidence. But maybe you're talking about 'laws' that include bullshit like "we love human rights bla bla"? Those 'human rights' 'laws' are of course more propaganda. In practice the US has the highest incarceration rate on the planet, it's the most dangerous rogue state on the planet, has military bases all over the planet, etc, etc, and does all that according to their 'laws'.

[apologies to any real law enforcement or mafia workers in the crowd, presently engaging a new psychotic break, it's up in the air whether i keep this public moniker]

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Yes, I want to focus on the crimes that the US slavers commit worldwide whereas you're focusing on their 'anti human trafficking' propaganda, which has the exact purpose of hiding their crimes and trying to pretend that they are the 'good guys'.

Really, with a good blockchain'd camera and a big and diverse crowd, you could win lawsuits altering the harmful behaviors of the US, based on antislavery laws.

Haha. Win lawsuits? By definition the govt owns the courts. So what kind of anarchist thinks he's going to fight government by hiring government lawyers to discuss pseudo legal bullshit in governmetn courts?

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So let me know when you start your anti US govcorp campaign instead of relaying their anti-sex, anti-prostitution propaganda.

Happy to run whatever campaign is willing to welcome all supporters, and listen to all their ideas. If you're intentionally excluding people who want to support you, or their ideas, that's a recipe for disaster, leave me out.

Why wouldn't I exclude people who parrot govt propaganda.

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The united nations is one of many, many organizations that produces information on human trafficking. Here is their 2020 report: https://www.unodc.org/documents/data-and-analysis/tip/2021/GLOTiP_2020_15jan... . It describes sexual slavery as around half the documented human trafficking.

here we go - 'sexual slavery'.

here we go - ignored everything i said and focused on only one small part, pretending it represents something relevant and meaningful.

The only thing you've been doing is pretending that all this 'human trafficking' bullshit isn't US propaganda.

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Nobody told me what to do here. And when I'm told what to do I usually do the opposite.

Yeah? Who would you love to disobey the most? \0xDynamite told me they were in charge, I think.

Oh yes, he's literally a jew theocrat. You can imagine how much I would obey him.

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I found some of it. You don't trust the law because Lincoln wasn't really that strong on Freedom, even though they signed it in?

it's pretty clear that 'The North' didn't intend to abolish slavery. It just happened as a side-effect of the civil war to keep the nazi US union. Hell the name of the FUCKING CESSPOOL is UNITED STATES!!

Maybe you were talking for them, then, but you care about me and still want to help me, now?

Am I talking for whom? I'm presenting the historical facts.

The anti-human-trafficking laws didn't help establish trust? https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/22/chapter-78

establish trust? I don't know what you mean. Trust in government? Why would you want that?

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You also quoted that slavery is only legal in the united states as punishment for a crime the victim has been duly convicted of.

so slavery IS STILL LEGAL. What part you don't get?

It sounds like you are really interested in helping close the last loopholes?

last loopholes? The 'loophole' is the existence of government itself. And no I'm not particulary interested in making govt laws look prettier. The fact that the US govt makes slavery explicitly 'legal' is a good reminder of what governments actually are.

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For me, I haven't engaged in any serious crime, but I can still be convicted in illegal ways that utilise loopholes, coercion, etc. So it's helpful to have documentation and a friend with some resources, of which there may be many on this list.

again, I don't know what you're talking about.

Oh. We'd better talk about it more. What don't you understand?

Government can put anybody they want in jail for any reason (that is, for no reason at all). That's what government is all about. If what you want is to 'reform' government you're anything but an anarchist.

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sure sure. The slaves the US govt is saving...

Nah, the US govt doesn't do too much. It's mostly churches and whatnot.

it's...what? Ah US churches. The worst kind of puritan garbage out there and their anti prostitution crusades. Thanks for making my point yet again.

And did you know that _oxygen_ causes _fires_? My god! Can you believe it? And the planet is _covered_ in it!

You think you're teaching me something with your false analogy? Churches are a fucking criminal cancer.

I'm not big on churches, but I like a ton that they help slaves, and also the homeless, everywhere. I also like some of their rituals and values a lot, but not the common belief that other religions could be wrong.

Yeah, nothing says 'anarchism' like US jew-christiano fascists and their 'charity'.

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I'm actually pretty scared to guess what kinds of people help these things! I'm worried they'd get hurt. Let's guess who they are when we've made it clear we're going to support them.

I am an anarchist. I support the destruction of fucking US jew-kristian churches. And you know what? I MEAN WHAT I SAY.

Arright, we better understand each other.

Since I'm not aware of any jew churches, I think what you mean is that we REALLY need to fight BAD STUFF. And we need to do this almost more than anything else. Is that accurate?

"I'm not aware of any jew churches" yeah right. You need to open your eyes then - learn the basic history of jew-kkkristian fascism. Look up "puritanism" in joogle? Go to a library? You can start with this : christianity is a form of totalitarianism derived from jew savagery and totalitarianism.

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so why do you pretend that the US govt and its supporters are opposed to slavery?

To try to help it be more true than it already is, so we can be free sooner.

What the hell are you saying exactly? You keep lying and helping the US govt criminals spread propaganda so that they become the 'good guys'? Talk about meaningless absurdities...

Lemme rephrase for you: If you are stuck in the fucking USA, and you need some fucking freedom before we take down the fucking government, the fucking USA human trafficking hotline might be able to help.

See? You can talk in a clear way with little effort. And the clear reply is : the 'human trafficking' 'hotline' is just for show. It's propaganda to get people to believe that the government is good and caring. The 'human trafficking' 'hotline' does more harm than good.

[aside: I don't consent to swearing; I need some tool that helps me build habits I choose.]

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It's obvious the US government is crummy.

crummy?

Functions as a tool of denied global systemic murder, acting with great obsession to stay that way. This is obvious, and people work hard to slowly change it.

So the US govt isn't crummy. It's the *most efficient* and most toxic criminal organization on the planet.

Sounds like your conversation is more important than mine for a reason you know really well. I didn't mean at all to not say the true thing you said.

Ok, maybe I got the meaning of 'crummy' wrong. I haven't seen that word used much (not making excuses). I thought 'crummy' meant something like " dirty and run-down; shabby."

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You keep assuming in your talk that there is no such thing as modern-day slavery, and you seem unable to discuss this.

modern day slavery is the political system we live in.

And we can reduce it! Tada!

Yes, but certainly not by calling the government's 'human trafficking' 'hotline'. If you call the governmetn's 'human trafficking' 'hotline' you'll increase modern day slavery by playing into the governmetn's hands.

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This makes it clear that you are experiencing it, in a way that is very hard to understand.

I'm experiencing what? Slavery at the hands of govcorp? well yeah. Is that news?

It's always news if you can't talk about the details of it.

The details are everywhere. Did you hear about the fake 'covid' 'pandemic' and the fact that that half the world has been/is under house arrest? What's your take on all that?

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worse than being in government jails? Oh wait, you just keep parroting bullshit from US TV and pentagon sponsored TV series, sorry. Yeah, I'm sure that 'reality' is pretty bad.

_Yeah_. _Worse_than_being_in_government_jails_. In jail they _feed_you_. They _protect_you_a_tiny_bit_. They _give_you_a_way_to_talk_with_others_.

You can die of injuries but they usually aren't as grotesque.

If you kill yourself somebody finds you and sees you, pretty quickly, and your family find out.

Not only that, your family has a reliable way of finding you and talking to you.

In a USA jail you get work that is clearly described, and further punishments that are clear.

In jail, you don't get forced to return to your family, lie to them, and secretly harm them! Isn't that great?

What show am I copying?

Anything produced in the US. Everything you say is pretty cliche. Your ode to US jails was quite something. I think this discussion is past its shelf life.

I need good shows that talk about real things. I have found very few.

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People who want to end slavery should be planning how to destroy government, not taking stolen money from government.

Regarding anarchism, this is faulty logic. You have more power if you steal money from your government.

1) the govt doesn't 'own' any money. All they have, they stole it. When you take govt money you just become an accomplice of government theft. The exact opposite of what any actual anarchist would do.

The government makes the money. But yeah it's all stolen from their people.

right, the govt prints the pseudo money, but the actual resources are stolen from all the holders of money. In the case of US dollars, the US govt is STEALING from people ALL OVER THE WORLD.

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2) the govt only gives money to their accomplices and other useful idiots who are not a threat, at all, to government.

Whistleblowers.

whistleblowers are not paid for what they do. They are persecuted by the govt.

Social aid.

propaganda, vote buying, crums to keep the masses from revolting, etc. 'social aid' is obviously bad, unless you're a social democrat who is selling statism.

Also, hackers who have been influenced to work for them, of which many are likely on this list, honestly believing themselves to be anarchists.

if you're talking about 'hackers' working for the govt, those worthless scumbags need killing. They belong in the "sellout" category and in the "enabler-of-child-murder" category.

You can get paid a ton as a hacker.

yeah the more corrupt you are, the bigger your govcorp paycheck is. So, hopefully you see that taking money from the govt is bad in many different ways.

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So, 'regarding anarchism', it's now obvious who is the one using faulty logic, and it isn't me.

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You just need to avoid all their traps and influence.

Yeah sure. So you take stolen money, but you think you're so clever you're going to use the stolen money against the thieves. "The end justifies the means", oldest govcorp slogan ever. And not only that, you are arrogant enough to believe you're going to outsmart the biggest criminals in town.

They watch people with money and act when it's used. That means you get one big expenditure.

I also was able to spread money around safely a lot by using small amounts of cash. Just make a habit of holding more and more cash, and then you'll have it to use in ways that are less dangerous [i.e. visit the people in need and leave it for them to find].

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[This is a debate I haven't been exposed to, to know the details of.

now you have

Juan-Sensei.

So. How do we take them down?

we need some critical mass of people who know what they are talking about.

Here we go again with totally different answers! On 2/6/21, Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0 wrote:

On Sat, 6 Feb 2021 14:34:57 -0500 Karl wrote:

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On 2/6/21, Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0 wrote:

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I'll reply to *some* points.

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nah, you're just repeating propaganda, pretending that prostitution overlaps with 'human trafficking'.

Maybe this doesn't happen where you're from, I don't know.

It doesn't happen anywhere. It's US anti-sex propaganda. So either you know little to nothing about the anti-culture in which you live in - the US puritan fascist cesspool - or you're being dishonest.

Punk, I bumped into a weirdo. He said I had to draw a square on the wall, and if I ever told anybody about him, the instructions, or the square, he would kill me!

Do you like to speak in riddles? Or do you do it because you think it serves some purpose? Problem is, I don't understand your riddles. I can try half guessing, but it takes effort and makes the discussion even harder to follow.

It's not a riddle. It's a summarisation of things that have happened to me. The parts were changed to ones I made up. It's meant straight, plus obvious similarity.

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There are many solutions to every problem.

This is an allegedly 'anarchist'(LMAO) mailing list and I am an anarchist, so the relevant solution here is abolition of government. Which is the the only morally correct solution by the way.

I'll keep this quoted in the hope that you do too. Helps us have some shared ground, to know that you chose to say that.

I don't need to keep it quoted. But it looks like something you need to keep in mind. So do that. Keep that in mind, not on your computer screen.

I don't really know how to do that. Maybe I could make a notes file regarding our conversations.

You know, you write in an articulated/elaborated way and you don't sound like a fool or crazy to me. At the same time you keep saying you are crazy or hinting that you don't remember what you wrote an hour ago. Those two things put together don't make sense. So my tentative conclusion is that you're not being serious.

I was well-educated before this happened to me.

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I'm down for an abolition-of-government solution to human trafficking, which is obviously just a much more personal and violent form of 'governance'.

abolition of government isn't 'obviosly a much more violent form of governance' - what are you talking about.

Let me say that part again, which looks grammatically correct when I review what you quoted: "that thing we're pretending is propaganda, is obviously just a much more personal and violent form of 'governance'"

Sorry, your clarification doesn't really clarify much. Last try :

"I'm down for an abolition-of-government solution to human trafficking"

Ok, that statement is clear and non-ambiguous. But then you add

"which is obviously just a much more personal and violent form of 'governance'"

What is the word "which" pointing at? What is this thing you're describing as "a much more personal and violent form of 'governance'"? As far as I can tell you're saying that abolition of government is a more violent form of government. Which is absurd.

Personal slavery. Where the government is not a large organised body but rather a smaller representative of pain.

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We'd have to make sure to prevent slavery, in the government-abolition.

that sounds like typical anti anarchist propaganda.

? When you abolish government you pretty much solve every problem because you can directly address them instead of going through bureaucrats and enforcement officers.

No. When you abolish government, all the problems that governmetn causes dissapear. That's the whole point of abolishing government.

Sorry, thought you were blaming all problems on government. So you do you propose abolishing "government" and not abolishing "slavery"? Personally, like, anarchism is cool, but to me govcorp looks pretty blurry. The USA government would basically disappear by actually respecting people if the powers pulling their strings were wrangled.

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But often people leave stuff out when planning.

social planners are interested in planning. Social planners are the opposite of anarchists.

These similarity of "planning" does not mean that planners are governments. Me, I'd like to live in a community where we do not enslave people, but rather respect everyone in it. What do you think of the idea of offering a service to governments and anarchists both, where young women can be forced to seduce activists, possibly even marry them, to take them out of their activism?

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Not sure what you mean. 'Legislation' in the US is clearly fascist and it is obviously enforced and supported by people in the US. The words, beliefs and behaviours are all aligned.

Since I'm the dirty cop here, you gotta believe me that the written law is different from what is going on here.

There's no reason for me to believe you and ignore plain evidence. But maybe you're talking about 'laws' that include bullshit like "we love human rights bla bla"?

Tired response. You're more tired than me in some ways, but may not get to say this. "laws". "we love human rights bla bla". Many people believe those laws and follow and live by them. Many of these people are where the government's power comes from, so they actually defend the laws for those people.

Those 'human rights' 'laws' are of course more propaganda. In practice the US has the highest incarceration rate on the planet, it's the most dangerous rogue state on the planet, has military bases all over the planet, etc, etc, and does all that according to their 'laws'.

Most of that stuff is picked by humans, kind of outside the laws. Like, the law might say some human can pick stuff, and the human picks that bad stuff. But, like, yeah, laws are bad. It's really hard to talk like the die-hard antigov you pretend to be after my brainwashing. Is there a word for not actually being a government agent but being about as gross as one? I'm about as gross as a government agent, just in a way that yields great pity, so I think of laws as helpful, now. I was running a story-analogy in this thread-part and I don't remember what it was.

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[apologies to any real law enforcement or mafia workers in the crowd, presently engaging a new psychotic break, it's up in the air whether i keep this public moniker]

I'll trim that away if punk doesn't.

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Yes, I want to focus on the crimes that the US slavers commit worldwide whereas you're focusing on their 'anti human trafficking' propaganda, which has the exact purpose of hiding their crimes and trying to pretend that they are the 'good guys'.

Really, with a good blockchain'd camera and a big and diverse crowd, you could win lawsuits altering the harmful behaviors of the US, based on antislavery laws.

Haha. Win lawsuits? By definition the govt owns the courts.

I've had success in two court battles myself.

So what kind of anarchist thinks he's going to fight government by hiring government lawyers to discuss pseudo legal bullshit in governmetn courts?

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So let me know when you start your anti US govcorp campaign instead of relaying their anti-sex, anti-prostitution propaganda.

Happy to run whatever campaign is willing to welcome all supporters, and listen to all their ideas. If you're intentionally excluding people who want to support you, or their ideas, that's a recipe for disaster, leave me out.

Why wouldn't I exclude people who parrot govt propaganda.

Obviously because somebody would train everybody to parrot it, so that they got the people instead of you.

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The united nations is one of many, many organizations that produces information on human trafficking. Here is their 2020 report: https://www.unodc.org/documents/data-and-analysis/tip/2021/GLOTiP_2020_15jan... . It describes sexual slavery as around half the documented human trafficking.

here we go - 'sexual slavery'.

here we go - ignored everything i said and focused on only one small part, pretending it represents something relevant and meaningful.

The only thing you've been doing is pretending that all this 'human trafficking' bullshit isn't US propaganda.

Say there were a tiny bit of human trafficking. Say I had even experienced it! What would be a respectful way to engage this, without spreading bullshit propaganda? Anyway, here's how to start a human trafficking ring. Clean out your basement. Go out on the streets and kidnap some kids. Tie them up in your basement. Keep them separate. Whenever the kids complain, hit them. When they are nice to you, give them nice things. Then, untie them and open the doors. If they try to leave, hit them and tie them back up. Then give them nice things, like food and water and kind words. Repeat until they stay. They train one of them for the others. This one will come and try to 'rescue' them. The path will be believable. The rescue will lead to the punishment area. Practice running rescues until every falls for the rescue and gets punished. Now, repeat the rescue training until nobody ever tries to escape. Great! Now train all these kids to do what you just did, to other people. _Awesome_. You have an automated business that runs itself! Ching-chaching! These people will find new ways to discuss being rescued. But you can train people to get good at finding new strategies to prevent it. Punishment is worth more money than there is on the planet. Here's what's actually true, rather than that bullshit: When somebody tries to control your behavior, they vomit on your soul in a way you can never, ever forget. Like they have told you they hate you in a way so real that you become it. Maybe you consciously forget everything that hurt, everything that is bad, maybe you can't bring to mind any memories of this. But it is written on ever fibre of your being, in a way every part of you understands and knows, like nothing else. This is why government cannot last. Not because of some fake world rebellion.

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Nobody told me what to do here. And when I'm told what to do I usually do the opposite.

Yeah? Who would you love to disobey the most? \0xDynamite told me they were in charge, I think.

Oh yes, he's literally a jew theocrat. You can imagine how much I would obey him.

So you're speaking backwards-language? You were told what to do, and you are following orders?

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I found some of it. You don't trust the law because Lincoln wasn't really that strong on Freedom, even though they signed it in?

it's pretty clear that 'The North' didn't intend to abolish slavery. It just happened as a side-effect of the civil war to keep the nazi US union. Hell the name of the FUCKING CESSPOOL is UNITED STATES!!

Maybe you were talking for them, then, but you care about me and still want to help me, now?

Am I talking for whom? I'm presenting the historical facts.

Sounds like those older facts are still pretty important. What could happen to make them right?

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The anti-human-trafficking laws didn't help establish trust? https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/22/chapter-78

establish trust? I don't know what you mean. Trust in government? Why would you want that?

This was another analogy-story that I forget.

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You also quoted that slavery is only legal in the united states as punishment for a crime the victim has been duly convicted of.

so slavery IS STILL LEGAL. What part you don't get?

It sounds like you are really interested in helping close the last loopholes?

last loopholes? The 'loophole' is the existence of government itself.

And no I'm not particulary interested in making govt laws look prettier. The fact that the US govt makes slavery explicitly 'legal' is a good reminder of what governments actually are.

Totally. Justice is run by human beings, not laws. That justice can be a mob of people, a court of law, a mediation, it can be anything. But we need to take action and talk with people, to make it happen. Anyway, sorry you were enslaved to downplay my sharing of rescue information. Obviously I'd be upset at whoever did that, not you.

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For me, I haven't engaged in any serious crime, but I can still be convicted in illegal ways that utilise loopholes, coercion, etc. So it's helpful to have documentation and a friend with some resources, of which there may be many on this list.

again, I don't know what you're talking about.

Oh. We'd better talk about it more. What don't you understand?

Government can put anybody they want in jail for any reason (that is, for no reason at all). That's what government is all about.

You mean organised crime! It's organised crime that does that. In the USA laws get in the way of government immediately imprisoning people.

If what you want is to 'reform' government you're anything but an anarchist.

I glanced at the bottom of the email after my last writing was lost, and am guessing you're asking for more people. Any idea how to access /proc/*/mem on a redhat system? I keep getting "Input/output error".

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sure sure. The slaves the US govt is saving...

Nah, the US govt doesn't do too much. It's mostly churches and whatnot.

it's...what? Ah US churches. The worst kind of puritan garbage out there and their anti prostitution crusades. Thanks for making my point yet again.

And did you know that _oxygen_ causes _fires_? My god! Can you believe it? And the planet is _covered_ in it!

You think you're teaching me something with your false analogy? Churches are a fucking criminal cancer.

So is carbon monoxide and ozone! It's obviously because they have oxygen in them!

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I'm not big on churches, but I like a ton that they help slaves, and also the homeless, everywhere. I also like some of their rituals and values a lot, but not the common belief that other religions could be wrong.

Yeah, nothing says 'anarchism' like US jew-christiano fascists and their 'charity'.

[insert lost story around coordinating with an organiser of a quaker meeting, and how our cultures prevented us from organising the city to resolve homelessness]

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I'm actually pretty scared to guess what kinds of people help these things! I'm worried they'd get hurt. Let's guess who they are when we've made it clear we're going to support them.

I am an anarchist. I support the destruction of fucking US jew-kristian churches. And you know what? I MEAN WHAT I SAY.

Arright, we better understand each other.

Since I'm not aware of any jew churches, I think what you mean is that we REALLY need to fight BAD STUFF. And we need to do this almost more than anything else. Is that accurate?

"I'm not aware of any jew churches"

yeah right. You need to open your eyes then - learn the basic history of jew-kkkristian fascism. Look up "puritanism" in joogle? Go to a library?

You can start with this : christianity is a form of totalitarianism derived from jew savagery and totalitarianism.

Although many people make that logical sloppiness, nobody really does it in this context. Thinking on the value of speaking straight. Wrote a lot more last time. Experiencing some cognitive issues here.

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so why do you pretend that the US govt and its supporters are opposed to slavery?

To try to help it be more true than it already is, so we can be free sooner.

What the hell are you saying exactly? You keep lying and helping the US govt criminals spread propaganda so that they become the 'good guys'? Talk about meaningless absurdities...

Lemme rephrase for you: If you are stuck in the fucking USA, and you need some fucking freedom before we take down the fucking government, the fucking USA human trafficking hotline might be able to help.

See? You can talk in a clear way with little effort. And the clear reply is : the 'human trafficking' 'hotline' is just for show. It's propaganda to get people to believe that the government is good and caring. The 'human trafficking' 'hotline' does more harm than good.

My names is FakeAnarchistGimmeMoreBeerAndWeed FakeAnarchistLetsFuckingBlowUpTheFuckingWhiteHouse Anyway, if you want to fucking die in the street while fucking cops rip your fucking tent to shreds and fucking brutalise your fucking body, be my guest, but shit do fucking smart people fucking sign up for fucking government aid and talk to a fucking therapist who doesn't fucking slur through a pile of fucking forties to say everything. I dunno, man. Maybe you don't know how nice it is to be able to contact a freedom resource when what you've been through is beyond what anybody you talk to seems able to comprehend. I asked my therapist if he could find somebody who had experience working with torture victims. He said he'd try a little bit. I can't fend for myself anymore. I've always given to others. When I'm on the streets, people can tell that I had a middle-class experience. But now I need to take to myself to survive. I'm a software developer. It's like all I know how to do well. It would be really powerful if I could do anything useful with it, but I'm brainwashed not to. Hmm. I'm so confused. Are you asking me to join street communities instead of calling the human trafficking hotline? Why are you speaking in riddles when you do this? I like doing that. I love being outdoors. Okay here's why I'm weird: I want to talk to someone who understands, and the streets are full of people who understand. I don't have to hop through 200 therapists to find this. That's an interesting idea.

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[aside: I don't consent to swearing; I need some tool that helps me build habits I choose.]

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It's obvious the US government is crummy.

crummy?

Functions as a tool of denied global systemic murder, acting with great obsession to stay that way. This is obvious, and people work hard to slowly change it.

So the US govt isn't crummy. It's the *most efficient* and most toxic criminal organization on the planet.

Sounds like your conversation is more important than mine for a reason you know really well. I didn't mean at all to not say the true thing you said.

Ok, maybe I got the meaning of 'crummy' wrong. I haven't seen that word used much (not making excuses). I thought 'crummy' meant something like " dirty and run-down; shabby."

Yeah, it means like "a little bad". I was just moving focus back towards providing more options for victims of slavery.

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You keep assuming in your talk that there is no such thing as modern-day slavery, and you seem unable to discuss this.

modern day slavery is the political system we live in.

And we can reduce it! Tada!

Yes, but certainly not by calling the government's 'human trafficking' 'hotline'.

Actually, this is helpful.

If you call the governmetn's 'human trafficking' 'hotline' you'll increase modern day slavery by playing into the governmetn's hands.

Well, due to phone surveillance and culture organisation, yes, but you'll also expend their resources monitoring you and influencing the people working there, and you they'll have to listen to some of the story and could turn into rebels. Anyway, so, you work for a government? Since you're clearly doing a job here and keep blaming the government for slavery.

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This makes it clear that you are experiencing it, in a way that is very hard to understand.

I'm experiencing what? Slavery at the hands of govcorp? well yeah. Is that news?

It's always news if you can't talk about the details of it.

The details are everywhere. Did you hear about the fake 'covid' 'pandemic' and the fact that that half the world has been/is under house arrest? What's your take on all that?

Hey this long answer was where my email closed! So, as far as I know, it's the response that's fake. Covid is real, the response is fake. So that's just 1 layer of unclear communication with you there. Usually many more it seems. It seems to be a way to gain better control of the world as technology and communicatoin resulting from grassroots activism develop, dunno. Kinda looks like it also helps people stimulating disruption, what with the public masks hiding faces and all. Oh, it reduces the need for surveillance infrastructure, since everybody is indoors and online. This probably helps defuse the ongoing cold war. The nice thing about that is that people with urgent importance can of course leave their home to do things, but most people won't which probably satisfies a lot of powerful people. Oh, and it supports internet businesses, showing development between big social / big tech / whatnot and international crime. Maybe it's a mediation point between many possibly-secret international power groups who may be quite happy to take down government if protected in doing so. What was left out for your values?

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worse than being in government jails? Oh wait, you just keep parroting bullshit from US TV and pentagon sponsored TV series, sorry. Yeah, I'm sure that 'reality' is pretty bad.

_Yeah_. _Worse_than_being_in_government_jails_. In jail they _feed_you_. They _protect_you_a_tiny_bit_. They _give_you_a_way_to_talk_with_others_.

You can die of injuries but they usually aren't as grotesque.

If you kill yourself somebody finds you and sees you, pretty quickly, and your family find out.

Not only that, your family has a reliable way of finding you and talking to you.

In a USA jail you get work that is clearly described, and further punishments that are clear.

In jail, you don't get forced to return to your family, lie to them, and secretly harm them! Isn't that great?

What show am I copying?

Anything produced in the US. Everything you say is pretty cliche. Your ode to US jails was quite something. I think this discussion is past its shelf life.

Well, the jail I was in was maybe nicer than others. I hear the prisons are where the real torture happens. My request for a show was serious. Most shows I find are kinda stupid, assuming there is no corruption or that it isn't deeply intertwined with everything. I have never seen a show where somebody has to adopt a secret life of slavery for a corporate mafia and cover it up. I haven't watched a lot of shows, most seem uninteresting. I watch shows sometimes because my brainwashing accepts the behavior as me not engaging in rebellion. Lets me rebuild some of my memory, for example.

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I need good shows that talk about real things. I have found very few.

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> People who want to end slavery should be planning how to destroy > government, not taking stolen money from government.

Regarding anarchism, this is faulty logic. You have more power if you steal money from your government.

1) the govt doesn't 'own' any money. All they have, they stole it. When you take govt money you just become an accomplice of government theft. The exact opposite of what any actual anarchist would do.

The government makes the money. But yeah it's all stolen from their people.

right, the govt prints the pseudo money, but the actual resources are stolen from all the holders of money. In the case of US dollars, the US govt is STEALING from people ALL OVER THE WORLD.

obviously, why are you saying this i suppose because you don't know what to say, and don't want to talk about slavery.

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2) the govt only gives money to their accomplices and other useful idiots who are not a threat, at all, to government.

Whistleblowers.

whistleblowers are not paid for what they do. They are persecuted by the govt.

they were paid before they blew their whistle.

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Social aid.

propaganda, vote buying, crums to keep the masses from revolting, etc. 'social aid' is obviously bad, unless you're a social democrat who is selling statism.

i've got an idea let's find all those homeless bums living off social aid because they were enslaved by a street-representative of their local law enforcement and some pharmaceuticals, steal all their money, and invest it in cryptocurrency right before a bubble, then we can use the money to make a brainwashing camp where we train the homeless to hate the government more. whaddaya think?

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Also, hackers who have been influenced to work for them, of which many are likely on this list, honestly believing themselves to be anarchists.

if you're talking about 'hackers' working for the govt, those worthless scumbags need killing. They belong in the "sellout" category and in the "enabler-of-child-murder" category.

did you get that phrasing from pr? i didn't know we were killing people. is the service available to people looking for suicide after being forced to do something they hate for years?

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You can get paid a ton as a hacker.

yeah the more corrupt you are, the bigger your govcorp paycheck is.

we were trained since we were kids that money was the only way to survive, i mean give us a little break here. how do you survive without money?

So, hopefully you see that taking money from the govt is bad in many different ways.

none of them seemed convincing to me. seems to me the biggest danger is being tracked, really, as well as developing habits that aren't helpful where you spend the money to survive, and using up time if you are working for it with your time.

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So, 'regarding anarchism', it's now obvious who is the one using faulty logic, and it isn't me.

this doesn't seem realistic to me. and i am really good at interpreting things as realistic. but i also have a horrible memory, in that i tend to only remember what i already can see.

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You just need to avoid all their traps and influence.

Yeah sure. So you take stolen money, but you think you're so clever you're going to use the stolen money against the thieves. "The end justifies the means", oldest govcorp slogan ever. And not only that, you are arrogant enough to believe you're going to outsmart the biggest criminals in town.

I never totally understood that arrogance but it seems to actually make a difference.

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They watch people with money and act when it's used. That means you get one big expenditure.

I also was able to spread money around safely a lot by using small amounts of cash. Just make a habit of holding more and more cash, and then you'll have it to use in ways that are less dangerous [i.e. visit the people in need and leave it for them to find].

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[This is a debate I haven't been exposed to, to know the details of.

now you have

Juan-Sensei.

So. How do we take them down?

we need some critical mass of people who know what they are talking about.

we need some critical mass of people who know what they are talking about. - how do we know whether they know what they are talking about? - note: people who know about everything and talk about it get seriously harmed. so we would probably have people who know about different things, that they are talking about. any further thoughts?

Here's what's actually true, rather than that bullshit: When somebody tries to control your behavior, they vomit on your soul in a way you can never, ever forget. Like they have told you they hate you in a way so real that you become it. Maybe you consciously forget everything that hurt, everything that is bad, maybe you can't bring to mind any memories of this. But it is written on ever fibre of your being, in a way every part of you understands and knows, like nothing else.

Maybe that is true for some people. I don't know if it is true for me. Part of me was probably trying to connect with your rebel expressions. I just want to be myself again.

Hey. I just finished a session of videotherapy. I haven't read Punk's emails yet. I suspect I reply to Punk more because the things he says are more similar to things I'm used to being said around me. During my therapy my therapist said something like "things you've been through, like human trafficking," and immediately got irritated, because I had been brainwashed to know I had not been through human trafficking. It's pretty obvious I was briefly, which is pretty confusing. I'm imagining people who have been forced to spread and believe propaganda against human trafficking, being unable to state that they have experienced it. A situation worse than mine. On 2/8/21, Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0 wrote:

On Sat, 6 Feb 2021 18:46:14 -0500 Karl wrote:

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Here we go again with totally different answers!

On 2/6/21, Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0 wrote:

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On Sat, 6 Feb 2021 14:34:57 -0500 Karl wrote:

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On 2/6/21, Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0 wrote:

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Punk, I bumped into a weirdo. He said I had to draw a square on the wall, and if I ever told anybody about him, the instructions, or the square, he would kill me!

Do you like to speak in riddles? Or do you do it because you think it serves some purpose? Problem is, I don't understand your riddles. I can try half guessing, but it takes effort and makes the discussion even harder to follow.

It's not a riddle. It's a summarisation of things that have happened to me. The parts were changed to ones I made up. It's meant straight, plus obvious similarity.

Well, you're talking about it. Now you're going to be killed?

Dunno! Today, my heart is still beating. And this isn't really talking, more like beating around a lot of bushes (which means intensely avoiding something). Do you think it's the right choice?

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As far as I can tell you're saying that abolition of government is a more violent form of government. Which is absurd.

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Personal slavery. Where the government is not a large organised body but rather a smaller representative of pain.

are you saying that abolition of government leads to personal slavery?

No. Here, let me quote something you said:

"I'm down for an abolition-of-government solution to human trafficking"

Ok, that statement is clear and non-ambiguous. But then you add

"which is obviously just a much more personal and violent form of 'governance'"

What is the word "which" pointing at?

The word "which" was pointing at the two words immediately preceding it: "hy0Omun tRaphikking". What word do you see, prior to "which"?

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No. When you abolish government, all the problems that governmetn causes dissapear. That's the whole point of abolishing government.

Sorry, thought you were blaming all problems on government.

Yes. Or to be more accurate, the vast amajority of problems are caused and amplified by government.

Sounds like this whether or not abolishing government would resolve the subject of this thread is a confusing topic for you?

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So you do you propose abolishing "government" and not abolishing "slavery"?

...? I never proposed not-abolishing-slavery...

I said:

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We'd have to make sure to prevent slavery, in the government-abolition. And you said: that sounds like typical anti anarchist propaganda.

Not sure what the concern here is. Are we in agreement that slavery and governance are both reasonable things to reign in? Kind of the small-form and large-form of controlling other people against their will?

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Personally, like, anarchism is cool, but to me govcorp looks pretty blurry. The USA government would basically disappear by actually respecting people if the powers pulling their strings were wrangled.

Govcorp is blurry? Not sure what you mean by that.

I mean it's hard to tell who or where they are, specifically.

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US government would....disappear....if the powers pulling their strings were wrangled.

govcorp IS the power pulling the strings.

I'm not sure what that means; I think of 'govcorp' as kind of just slang for governments and corporations acting synchronously. In the USA we have a lot of corporate lobbyists and financers influencing things pretty heavily.

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But often people leave stuff out when planning.

social planners are interested in planning. Social planners are the opposite of anarchists.

These similarity of "planning" does not mean that planners are governments.

But it does. Planners have the wrong mindset. They are wannabe tyrants, 'planning' what other people should do. Also, look at all the fucking technocrats around here...

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Me, I'd like to live in a community where we do not enslave people, but rather respect everyone in it.

Fine. That's a principle, not a plan.

You can plan on people sharing their principles in groups. Such groups may want to plan together.

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What do you think of the idea of offering a service to governments and anarchists both, where young women can be forced to seduce activists, possibly even marry them, to take them out of their activism?

Sounds convoluted.

Yeah kind of a specific case of multiple things. Maybe it would be easier to draw on a normal trafficking service as a government worker. How 'bout that?

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"laws". "we love human rights bla bla".

Many people believe those laws and follow and live by them. Many of these people are where the government's power comes from, so they actually defend the laws for those people.

bullshit.

? I've lived in upper-income communities and seen the reliable policing and respect. I've also seen moonshiners have their camp leveled by machinery just because somebody called the police about their clothes looking raggy. Laws are functional tools for the people who pay the most of the taxes. These people can be reached and worked with.

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Those 'human rights' 'laws' are of course more propaganda. In practice the US has the highest incarceration rate on the planet, it's the most dangerous rogue state on the planet, has military bases all over the planet, etc, etc, and does all that according to their 'laws'.

Most of that stuff is picked by humans, kind of outside the laws.

bullshit. All those crimes are commited 'by law' and 'inside' the 'laws'.

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Like, the law might say some human can pick stuff, and the human picks that bad stuff.

Govt crimimals write 'laws' which are nothing but a description of their crimes, and 'execute' the 'laws', i.e. commit the crimes.

That totally happens, but in the USA we also write our own laws. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popular_referendum . Representation occasionally works too, where laws get written that people want. What's relevant is that we have antislavery laws, so working with laws would be a part of a comprehensive effort against slavery. You could also just rescue and protect people with your physical body, which sounds pretty awesome too.

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But, like, yeah, laws are bad. It's really hard to talk like the die-hard antigov you pretend to be after my brainwashing. Is there a word for not actually being a government agent but being about as gross as one? I'm about as gross as a government agent, just in a way that yields great pity, so I think of laws as helpful, now.

In the past you claimed you were an 'anarcho-primitivist'. It doesn't seem that's the case tho.

I'd better be allowed to be an anarcho-primtivist who was forcibly brainwashed to not behave or talk like one, because I am that. If you want me to criticise laws for my reasons, they produce and sustain conflict by depersonalizing the resolution of concerns. You need to have ways to heal relations with the people who impact you and are impacted by you, on a personal and emotional level, or things just worsen and worsen.

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Really, with a good blockchain'd camera and a big and diverse crowd, you could win lawsuits altering the harmful behaviors of the US, based on antislavery laws.

Haha. Win lawsuits? By definition the govt owns the courts.

I've had success in two court battles myself.

Well yes, you can win a few 'lawsuits' which in practice won't affect the operation of government and would give the false idea that government isn't tyrannical.

Lawsuits in the USA maybe have two useful roles: they give you an opportunity to defend yourself against government excess, and they provide an avenue for producing defended results. For example, people have had some success retrieving FOIA documents.

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Happy to run whatever campaign is willing to welcome all supporters, and listen to all their ideas. If you're intentionally excluding people who want to support you, or their ideas, that's a recipe for disaster, leave me out.

Why wouldn't I exclude people who parrot govt propaganda.

Obviously because somebody would train everybody to parrot it, so that they got the people instead of you.

Somehow "people who want to support you" and "people who parrot govt propaganda" got mixed up. Anyway, you don't want support from people who

In the scenario I proposed, the second group is a superset of the first.

parrot what your enemy tells them to parrot. And if they believe govt

Sounds like you can't teach people what is true?

propaganda they won't support anti government actions so they are not a great loss.

In the USA, most people grow up supporting the government, and then at some point realise it is a big sham and many people then turn against the government. Nothing is black and white.

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Say there were a tiny bit of human trafficking. Say I had even experienced it! What would be a respectful way to engage this, without spreading bullshit propaganda?

I don't know.

Sounds like it's not bullshit propaganda, unless those words mean "crucial information".

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Anyway, here's how to start a human trafficking ring.

Clean out your basement. etc

thanks for the instructions

thanks for snipping them.

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Here's what's actually true, rather than that bullshit: When somebody tries to control your behavior, they vomit on your soul in a way you can never, ever forget. Like they have told you they hate you in a way so real that you become it. Maybe you consciously forget everything that hurt, everything that is bad, maybe you can't bring to mind any memories of this. But it is written on ever fibre of your being, in a way every part of you understands and knows, like nothing else.

This is why government cannot last. Not because of some fake world rebellion.

Not sure I follow. By "government cannot last" you mean it's going to somehow self-destruct?

It's like the blowback I mentioned earlier. The more you do nasty stuff the more people eventually make sure it can never happen again. We'd like to skip all the death and just be nice to each other, though.

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Nobody told me what to do here. And when I'm told what to do I usually do the opposite.

Yeah? Who would you love to disobey the most? \0xDynamite told me they were in charge, I think.

Oh yes, he's literally a jew theocrat. You can imagine how much I would obey him.

So you're speaking backwards-language? You were told what to do, and you are following orders?

I wasn't told what to do. And I added that in the hypothetical case that I were given orders, I'm pretty unlikely to follow them.

So you're saying the answer to two questions is no, and no?

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You also quoted that slavery is only legal in the united states as punishment for a crime the victim has been duly convicted of.

so slavery IS STILL LEGAL. What part you don't get?

It sounds like you are really interested in helping close the last loopholes?

last loopholes? The 'loophole' is the existence of government itself.

And no I'm not particulary interested in making govt laws look prettier. The fact that the US govt makes slavery explicitly 'legal' is a good reminder of what governments actually are.

Totally. Justice is run by human beings, not laws.

The 'legal' system is run by pseudo-human trash who write 'laws' and execute them. That's obviously not 'justice, and yes it is run by 'laws' and the assholes who write them.

Government is bad, slavery is bad, sounds like we agree that people need freedom.

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That justice can be a mob of people, a court of law, a mediation, it can be anything. But we need to take action and talk with people, to make it happen.

Anyway, sorry you were enslaved to downplay my sharing of rescue information.

Funny you keep saying that. Do you mean you are enslaved to post govt propaganda here? Because that's what you keep doing.

I already said that what you propose is true. I'll consider believing it's not true for you when you can acknowledge that human trafficking exists today.

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Government can put anybody they want in jail for any reason (that is, for no reason at all). That's what government is all about.

You mean organised crime! It's organised crime that does that.

Yes government is organised crime. That's pretty much a self-evident fact.

Crime is specifically opposed to government, in the definition. Anyway, it sounds like oppose human trafficking, i.e. where masses of people are forced to do things against their will for the benefit of others, but call it government? It is notable that governments also do this, but they don't offer the behaviors of their people as a service to the wealthy or anything that I am aware of.

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In the USA laws get in the way of government immediately imprisoning people.

meh, now you are just trolling.

You can look in BlueLeaks and see the presentation of groups who are not about terrorism, described as terrorists in law enforcement trainings (although it's hard to find). If government was just a way to control people directly, there would be no need to deceive the police to get them to attack certain groups of people.

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You think you're teaching me something with your false analogy? Churches are a fucking criminal cancer.

So is carbon monoxide and ozone! It's obviously because they have oxygen in them!

Churches are a cancer and your retorts are not relevant. If you care about human freedom you should be against jew-kristianity.

I mean, I really don't like indoctrination, but I have eaten at numerous soup kitchens run by churches. They do do moral things. Why do you care so much about being for and against stuff? It's, like, the only thing I am against (being against stuff in general), and this is true of so many people. You cast yourself as the eternal villain.

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[insert lost story around coordinating with an organiser of a quaker meeting,

fuck the quakers. Puritan english theocrats.

I like how they sit in a circle of silence, listening, and accept all beliefs. They still talk like god is the biggest one which is weird.

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You can start with this : christianity is a form of totalitarianism derived from jew savagery and totalitarianism.

Although many people make that logical sloppiness, nobody really does it in this context.

What logical sloppiness. Organized religion is criminal fraud. European jew-kkkristianty is a derivative of jew anti-culture. Basic moral and historical facts.

I received two spaces and no words between "is" and "criminal". I suppose you edited it. What does this matter? This "information" is possibly helpful for judging how much to trust something, but not everything is about how much to trust somebody's religion. In fact, very little is.

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My names is FakeAnarchistGimmeMoreBeerAndWeed FakeAnarchistLetsFuckingBlowUpTheFuckingWhiteHouse

Anyway, if you want to fucking die in the street while fucking cops rip your fucking tent to shreds and fucking brutalise your fucking body, be my guest,

There's no need to get into a fight with cops, unless there's enough people to beat the cops to death slowly, like they deserve.

Anarchists tend to lose their homes and live on the streets. On the streets you can get hurt by cops.

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but shit do fucking smart people fucking sign up for fucking government aid and talk to a fucking therapist

smart people don't sign up for govt 'aid' either. You presented a false choice.

What does "false choice" mean? Dude, tell them your name is "doe john" and use the free money to stimulate their fucking economy and get medical treatment for your frostbite.

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who doesn't fucking slur through a pile of fucking forties to say everything.

I dunno, man. Maybe you don't know how nice it is to be able to contact a freedom resource when what you've been through is beyond what anybody you talk to seems able to comprehend. I asked my therapist if he could find somebody who had experience working with torture victims. He said he'd try a little bit.

I can't fend for myself anymore. I've always given to others. When I'm on the streets, people can tell that I had a middle-class experience. But now I need to take to myself to survive. I'm a software developer. It's like all I know how to do well. It would be really powerful if I could do anything useful with it, but I'm brainwashed not to. Hmm.

How are you brainwashed exactly? And what can a single software developer do anyway. I mean, there's already software out there and the problem is that people mostly don't use it. Just look at monero for instance. Very underused.

Eh I was harmed in a way that used timing and intensity to build like alternate personalities in me that believe weird shit and influence me heavily. A single free software developer can write a blockchain or machine learning application that changes the entire world. See: bitcoin. It's not that people use it: it's that people mine it. But what's more relevant is that most people don't understand software, so you can really help some arbitrary group out by managing their software issues and writing software that does things they do. Software isn't used cause devs aren't free, over here. Why do you believe monero isn't used?

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I'm so confused.

Are you asking me to join street communities instead of calling the human trafficking hotline? Why are you speaking in riddles when you do this?

If anything I'm asking you to not spread govt propaganda. If you want to call teh 'govt hotline', go ahead. But why post about it here.

It was freedom day. Slaves don't always talk, so it's worth the gamble to share it. Somebody may have never heard of it before. I'm always spamming the list and it's one of my gimmicks ;p It's not meant to be government propaganda. It's not even government-run. NGOs get government financing in the USA. Obviously it _is_ government propaganda a little, but I thought I addressed that in the post.

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I like doing that. I love being outdoors.

joining a street community sounds goood

mmm

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Okay here's why I'm weird: I want to talk to someone who understands, and the streets are full of people who understand. I don't have to hop through 200 therapists to find this.

That sounds sensible.

interesting messaging you carry here, punk-stasi. the world is pretty confusing. i didn't know using computers would turn into my life.

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If you call the governmetn's 'human trafficking' 'hotline' you'll increase modern day slavery by playing into the governmetn's hands.

Well, due to phone surveillance and culture organisation, yes,

that's one of the various ways yes.

what are other ways? i just keep hearing that the government gives htem money, the government is bad, the government is bad, laws are bad, governments are bad ...

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but you'll also expend their resources monitoring you and influencing the people working there,

the more you spend 'their' resources, the more they will grow. It's a demand/supply thing. You don't sabotage the government by playing their game.

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and you they'll have to listen to some of the story and could turn into rebels.

Maybe that could happen to a few 'therapists' but the chances are pretty low.

You're here, talking to me.

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Anyway, so, you work for a government?

No.

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Since you're clearly doing a job here and keep blaming the government for slavery.

How does that follow, exactly? I'm presenting the anti government case, and your conclusion is that I work for some government?

You do it totally irrationally as if it is a sham. If you wanted to convince people of something you would make points around what they are likely to hear. Maybe I imagine that people often, when lying and taxed, pick the exact opposite of what is true. Takes more energy to creatively make up something new, maybe.

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The details are everywhere. Did you hear about the fake 'covid' 'pandemic' and the fact that that half the world has been/is under house arrest? What's your take on all that?

Hey this long answer was where my email closed!

So, as far as I know, it's the response that's fake. Covid is real, the response is fake. So that's just 1 layer of unclear communication with you there. Usually many more it seems.

'covid' is just the ordinary flu. That's the only sense in which it's real.

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It seems to be a way to gain better control of the world as technology and communicatoin resulting from grassroots activism develop, dunno.

yes, the only purpose of the flu farce is to expand the power of govcorp.

Point being, while we're talking about the virtues of the govt 'hotline' and how 'helpful' govt 'laws' are, the govt criminals keep radically expanding their power.

That's obvious. Really, I felt the freedom hotline share helped with that situation.

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Kinda looks like it also helps people stimulating disruption, what with the public masks hiding faces and all.

Oh, it reduces the need for surveillance infrastructure, since everybody is indoors and online.

The surveillance infrastructure is being expanded. See bell's posts calling for/ praising 'thermal cameras' and more retardphone surveillance.

Maybe it helps authorities have a norm of full surveillance before it is actually deployed.

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This probably helps defuse the ongoing cold war. The nice thing about that is that people with urgent importance can of course leave their home to do things, but most people won't which probably satisfies a lot of powerful people.

Oh, and it supports internet businesses, showing development between big social / big tech / whatnot and international crime.

yes, it shows that the US govt and amazon-joogle-microshit-etc are one and the same.

What I've been exposed to is the corps sending people to different parts of governments and influencing them in targeting manners or getting their own people elected. People successfully fight this, they just get really hurt doing so.

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Maybe it's a mediation point between many possibly-secret international power groups who may be quite happy to take down government if protected in doing so. What was left out for your values?

The 'international' power group is the US govt. The US govt is not going to take down the US govt.

You didn't like Trump's attack on the USA government?

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My request for a show was serious. Most shows I find are kinda stupid, assuming there is no corruption or that it isn't deeply intertwined with everything.

Pretty much.

The concept of mine you snipped and said was similar to shows seemed indicative of some intertwined corruption.

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Regarding anarchism, this is faulty logic. You have more power if you steal money from your government.

1) the govt doesn't 'own' any money. All they have, they stole it. When you take govt money you just become an accomplice of government theft. The exact opposite of what any actual anarchist would do.

The government makes the money. But yeah it's all stolen from their people.

right, the govt prints the pseudo money, but the actual resources are stolen from all the holders of money. In the case of US dollars, the US govt is STEALING from people ALL OVER THE WORLD.

obviously, why are you saying this

i suppose because you don't know what to say, and don't want to talk about slavery.

lawl - I mentioned that because you could have argued that by spending govt money you're getting back what you pay in taxes. HOWEVER, in the case of the US, a good deal of the loot doesn't even come from US taxpayers. So when you spend 'govt money' you're being subsidized by people all over the world. And it seem pretty relevant given all your pro US govt comments.

These are strange things to say. Do you have a source of income? Are you working on any public software projects? It sounds like the thing to do with govt money is to send it out of the country?

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2) the govt only gives money to their accomplices and other useful idiots who are not a threat, at all, to government.

Whistleblowers.

whistleblowers are not paid for what they do. They are persecuted by the govt.

they were paid before they blew their whistle.

right. They were paid when they were criminal accomplices of the govt, and are persecuterd when they stop being accomplices of the govt.

yup yup. such people will probably need some freedom services.

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Social aid.

propaganda, vote buying, crums to keep the masses from revolting, etc. 'social aid' is obviously bad, unless you're a social democrat who is selling statism.

i've got an idea let's find all those homeless bums living off social aid because they were enslaved by a street-representative of their local law enforcement and some pharmaceuticals, steal all their money, and invest it in cryptocurrency right before a bubble, then we can use the money to make a brainwashing camp where we train the homeless to hate the government more. whaddaya think?

I think government should be abolished.

I think we can work together peacefully to accomplish anything.

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Also, hackers who have been influenced to work for them, of which many are likely on this list, honestly believing themselves to be anarchists.

if you're talking about 'hackers' working for the govt, those worthless scumbags need killing. They belong in the "sellout" category and in the "enabler-of-child-murder" category.

did you get that phrasing from pr? i didn't know we were killing people. is the service available to people looking for suicide after being forced to do something they hate for years?

who is 'we'? Are you a 'hacker' working for the government?

You and me and anyone else in whatever you're talking about with me. I wish I were, I'd probably be able to do things I choose or enjoy a little more, or make money doing them =S Maybe I am in some kinda indirect way.

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You can get paid a ton as a hacker.

yeah the more corrupt you are, the bigger your govcorp paycheck is.

Deposit your savings on a blockchain with govcorp secrets as attached messages.

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we were trained since we were kids that money was the only way to survive, i mean give us a little break here. how do you survive without money?

meh

Basically you find some way to learn that, and spend a couple years practicing, making it fun rather than grueling, and then you don't need money anymore. Libraries and homeless people have lots of information on this. Courses can make it formal.

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So, hopefully you see that taking money from the govt is bad in many different ways.

none of them seemed convincing to me.

go figure. You also think US government laws are 'helpful'.

Only the helpful ones! Most of these reduce government's power, like FOIA or popular referendum or free speech.

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we need some critical mass of people who know what they are talking about.

we need some critical mass of people who know what they are talking about.

- how do we know whether they know what they are talking about? - note: people who know about everything and talk about it get seriously harmed. so we would probably have people who know about different things, that they are talking about.

any further thoughts?

not really. You can have the last word if you want ^-^

I am speaking last but my words don't contain information. My last word is fake.

So, obviously, I'm very slow, and the thing to do is to work with everybody who can learn and share information effectively, even though they may get hurt.

That might mean organising the information and preparing it in ways that show other people it is true. We'll see what it actually means.

How do we communicate across belief divides?

Maybe with clear evidence. Wow. Hum.

On Fri, 4 Mar 2022 02:32:13 -0500 grarpamp wrote:

On 2/6/21, Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0 ranted:

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puritanism [rant...] christianity [rant...] jew [rant...]

Sex guy always conveniently leaves Islam off his post-Abrahamic rants...

islam does not affect me. Apart from that, it's closely related to your nazi jew-kkkristianity, so it's the same garbage. The thing to notice here is that you are a trumpofascist who is always whining about islam...like the good right-wing US military bot that you are.

then recall how Islam is the only thing that would allow him having sex with prepubescent child.

"There is no fucking 'child sexual abuse'. -- PunkBatSoupStasi aka ..."

right, there isn't. It's something invented by jew-kkkristian-feminazis like you. Then again, since you are the Ultimate Master of jew-nazi-US 'voluntarysm', you must be such an expert on the state's 'age of consent' 'laws'...Your 'laws'.