Fuck You Griffin(happy now?) yes and FUCK you too!!..Who GIVES a FLYING FUCK as to what YOU CARE ABOUT... those who dont remember the past are doomed to forever repeat it.. GH idiot fuckwad kids On 1/8/14 9:02 AM, Griffin Boyce wrote:

The amount of fucks I give about this can be conveniently stored within a thimble. If the drama is twenty years hence, maybe it's time to move beyond it?

~Griffin

On 2014-01-08 11:49, gwen hastings wrote:

...

From ld231782 Wed Dec 29 21:33:12 1993 Return-Path: ld231782 Received: from dolores.lance.colostate.edu (dolores.lance.colostate.edu [129.82.112.18]) by longs.lance.colostate.edu (8.6.4/8.6.4) with SMTP id VAA27831; Wed, 29 Dec 1993 21:32:40 -0700 Message-Id: <199312300432.VAA27831@longs.lance.colostate.edu> to: cypherpunks@toad.com, cypherwonks@lists.eunet.fi, colorado_cypherpunks@vis.colostate.edu subject: Paranoia Strikes Deep... cc: ld231782 Date: Wed, 29 Dec 93 21:32:28 -0700 From: "L. Detweiler" <ld231782> X-Mts: smtp

Hello, I have been hearing some rumors about the cypherpunks being `penetrated' by some spies and areas of the Internet (mailing lists, newsgroups, private mail, journal articles, etc.) being targeted with `tentacle' infiltrations. I thought this was kind of fascinating to contemplate how they would behave. It seems to me that loyalty is very hard to judge by mere email messages alone, and that these hypothetical spies might take that to their advantage. Here are some of the things that either cypherpunk loyalists (cyberanarchists) or cy{b,ph}erwonk spies might say to gain credibility and further `intelligence' from insiders:

- L.Detweiler is insane, has sent death threats, is behind S.Boxx, is involved in cyberspatial guerrila warfare, is the mastermind of a spy plot, etc. He is the only person in the world who cares about pseudospoofing. (All the complete ad hominem fantasy stuff).

- `T.C. May and E.Hughes and J.Gilmore are all outstanding and upstanding net citizens, have never pseudospoofed or done anything wrong, and are the target of an anonymous smear campaign by terrorists.'

- `I have been to cypherpunk meetings and parties, and I have met all the people who have been accused of being tentacles, and they are all real. In fact, I saw their drivers licenses.' `Someone accused of being a tentacle actually lives with me.'

- There are no conspiracies whatsoever going on inside the cypherpunks, including drug use by `leaders' or pseudospoofing or other illegitimate activities.

- Lies are liberating. `We have a right to lie to the media and other people through tentacles.' One can make a game out of infecting respectable media outlets like Wired and NYT with elaborate deceptions.

- Pseudospoofing is liberating. `You are only as good as the number of identities you can project on the internet; this is a feature, not a bug.' The Enders Game book (Orson Scott Card?) is an example of the liberating effect of pseudospoofing on freeing people from their arbitrary prejudices about human identity and accountability.

- There's no big deal about black marketeering or tax evasion. Everyone does it. It's a survival tactic in a brutal world of corrupt governments and massive corporations out to oppress the little guy. We are entering a New World Order where anarchy will rule and all governments will crumble.

- Blacknet is a harmless and visionary cyberspatial experiment done by T.C.May.

- `Please take these annoying discussions about secret conspiracies elsewhere.'

Of course, if any of these statements are by the spies, they are just trying to build up your trust so that they can betray you later when they have the proper opportunity. Or, sometimes, there is the dictum that `intelligence is more valuable than liquidation' and they may continue to deceive you just for the valuable intelligence indefinately.

* * *

Then there may be some `tentacles' out there that are being driven by the counterrevolutionaries bent on destroying the Cyberanarchist movement and interested in getting some of their own propaganda out there. These would be indistinguishable from cy{b,ph}erwonk loyalists.

- L.Detweiler is brilliant, has made stellar net contributions, has never sent death threats, no evidence exists that he is behind S.Boxx, he has spoken out against cyberspatial guerrila warfare, is the mastermind of a new mailing list but talk of a spy plot is preposterous, etc. He is one of many in the world who cares very seriously about pseudospoofing as all his writing in e.g. RISKS and CUD attests.

- `Very little is know about T.C. May and E.Hughes and J.Gilmore as far as their personalities, and in fact J.Gilmore has admitted publicly to drug use, and all vehemently resist making unequivocal public or private statements on pseudospoofing, although they do seem to be the target of an anonymous smear campaign by the anonymous person S.Boxx, but with some disturbing elements of truth.'

- `I have never been to cypherpunk meetings and parties, and I am suspicious of the behavior of many of the `people' L.Detweiler has accused of being tentacles, because of the lack of verifiable information and a sort of `cardboard cutout' flavor to their personalities. There seems to be some desperate damage control going on.'

- There seem to be some actual conspiracies going on inside the cypherpunks, including drug use by `leaders' or pseudospoofing or other illegitimate activities.

- Lies are lies. `No one has a right to lie to the media or other people through tentacles.' Anyone who makes a game out of infecting respectable media outlets like Wired and NYT with elaborate deceptions is malicious, depraved, and perverted.

- Pseudospoofing is perverted. Statements like `You are only as good as the number of identities you can project on the internet; this is a feature, not a bug.' are depraved and deluded. The Enders Game book (Orson Scott Card?) is an example of the very dangerous effect of pseudospoofing on manipulating people in their assumptions and presumptions about human identity and accountability, and for mind control and brainwashing.

- Black marketeering and tax evasion are evil. Though many promote it, it is toxic to social harmony. Those that promote it are all hypocrites who claim that they have found new societies that are free of it, but have found only societies of poisonous distrust and paranoia. The whole purpose of governments and corporations is to serve people, and if they fail to do so they need to be adjusted but not destroyed.

- `Please don't censor these fascinating discussions about secret conspiracies and cyberanarchists.'

* * *

It's quite a pity that in Cyberspace, to borrow a phrase that is rapidly becoming a cliche, no one knows if you are a spy. Perhaps we can work together to build systems that minimize this kind of rampant paranoia. It's really a shame that someone with a grudge against any mailing list or its leaders could so disrupt its smooth flowing operation with no repercussions. I have some ideas for preventing this, and in fact I encourage anyone else who does to join the Cy{ph,b}erwonks list and discuss these issues associated with Electronic Democracy.

``The first casualty in war is the truth.'' There is a saying in war, `shoot them all and let God sort them out.' Perhaps in these turbulent times, this message represents a `list all the rumors and let the People sort them out.' I hope the truth prevails in Cyberspace as it does in the real world. Our own controversies, such as those above, will serve as an interesting experiment.

-- Tentacle #99 ecc public key curve p160 ;9C~b~)3)cp0d!?C1JIVI=tI( Governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, that whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles, and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.’

On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 12:23 PM, gwen hastings wrote:

Fuck You Griffin(happy now?)

yes and FUCK you too!!..Who GIVES a FLYING FUCK as to what YOU CARE ABOUT...

those who dont remember the past are doomed to forever repeat it.. GH

idiot fuckwad kids

The burglar thinks everyone a burglar... You should spend some of that energy on learning not to top-post.

On 2014-01-08 12:59, shelley@misanthropia.info wrote:

On Jan 8, 2014 9:48 AM, Patrick Mylund Nielsen wrote:

(snip)

...

...

You should spend some of that energy on learning not to top-post.

Ah, there it is. *Now* it feels like authentic usenet.

Maybe we should have a hundred-message thread fighting about top vs bottom ;)

It's not a real Usenet flame war until there's been a spelling flame or two*. "UN-altered REPRODUCTION and DISSEMINATION of this IMPORTANT information is ENCOURAGED". At 10:03 AM 1/8/2014, Griffin Boyce wrote:

On 2014-01-08 12:59, shelley@misanthropia.info wrote:

...

On Jan 8, 2014 9:48 AM, Patrick Mylund Nielsen wrote: (snip)

...

...

You should spend some of that energy on learning not to top-post. Ah, there it is. *Now* it feels like authentic usenet.

Maybe we should have a hundred-message thread fighting about top vs bottom ;)

And Detweiler and Sternlight were useful practice. Detweiler had a few serious points, but also gave us the insight that killfiles weren't just for Usenet any more; we needed to develop email filtering to deal with spammers* and other undesirable noise sources. Sternlight was one of the early advocates of building censorship into everything. They haven't gone away, and the UK's Tory-LibDem coalition just forced the major British ISPs to make heavy-duty censorship the default behaviour, though if you want to access suspicious sites like the EFF and BoingBoing you can tell the ISP to allow you to endanger your children by letting your internet access like access all the nasty internet p0rn. (* One of the few good things about spam was that "how do we stop spam" replaced "libertarians vs. socialists" as the default topic that all discussions rapidly devolve into.)

Dnia środa, 8 stycznia 2014 15:54:28 demonfighter6 . pisze:

On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 12:59 PM, wrote:

...

Ah, there it is. *Now* it feels like authentic usenet.

No, not quite yet.

People who top-post are just like ***Hitler***!

There, that should do it.

God, win! -- Pozdr rysiek

This. -->

Well that escalated quickly.

Considering that my entire generation of hackers & cypherpunks is being eviscerated -- surveilled, investigated, their professional lives threatened, I don't really care about in-fighting. When people stop being terrified of releasing their own research, maybe I will care about drama. Life is too short and our work too important to hold grudges.

I don't delude myself that anyone cares about my opinions, but I reserve the right to have them. And while I too have disagreements with people in this space, there's little point in wasting energy on shouting about them on lists. =P Spend time doing something worthwhile.

best, Griffin Boyce

On 2014-01-08 12:23, gwen hastings wrote:

...

Fuck You Griffin(happy now?)

yes and FUCK you too!!..Who GIVES a FLYING FUCK as to what YOU CARE ABOUT...

those who dont remember the past are doomed to forever repeat it.. GH

idiot fuckwad kids

On 1/8/14 9:02 AM, Griffin Boyce wrote:

...

The amount of fucks I give about this can be conveniently stored within a thimble. If the drama is twenty years hence, maybe it's time to move beyond it?

~Griffin

On 2014-01-08 11:49, gwen hastings wrote:

...

[drama from twenty years ago]

Dnia środa, 8 stycznia 2014 15:38:37 Robert Hettinga pisze:

On Jan 8, 2014, at 2:32 PM, Odinn Cyberguerrilla wrote:

I haven’t had

...

This. -->

much fun since the hogs ate my little brother, I tellyawot…

Well, they ate my Makers and Pirate Cinema, but I ain't bitchin' 'bout it. /the number of apostrophes in this message is too damn high! -- Pozdr rysiek