This is the Opportunity-cost of NOT implementing my AP idea
My Assassination Politics https://cryptome.org/ap.htm proposal has been extensively mistreated and unfairly opposed by people, even early on the Cypherpunks list, based on very false and especially incomplete analyses. Specifically, people write as if you can consider AP 'good' based only on it, rather than in comparison with what it will certainly replace. And yes, many people have had the opportunity, for about 25 years now, to do these comparisons. They have utterly failed to do that. Economists have a term called "opportunity cost", the costs of NOT choosing a particular course of action. Making a decision requires an analysis of not merely choosing, but also choosing NOT, to do something. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunity_cost I just read the following, from Reddit. It is a seemingly small, but virtually perfect, example of what happens when you DON'T choose to implement my Assassination Politics system. https://www.reddit.com/r/Libertarian/comments/em8clw/brooklyn_public_defender_scott_hechinger_lays_out/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share I will quote all of this below, the relevant message, in case it disappears. But I will say that in an AP world this kind of event could not occur. Why do I say that? In an AP world, this crooked detective wouldn't expect to be protected by an equally-crooked judge. In an AP world, this crooked detective would be 'donated to death', very quickly, and there would be nothing at all that anybody could do to stop this. And if a crooked judge tried to help him get away with this amazing perjury, that judge too would be 'donated to death', just as quickly. And anyone who supported him, or them. Mostly, the deterrent value of AP would make such actions unthinkable, and impossible in practice. One reason that my AP idea should be considered so good is that it must be judged in comparison with the existing world, all the bad things like this. Anybody who criticizes AP needs to explain why it would somehow be worse than today's amazing world. When I do a Google-search for things like ' "Assassination Politics" "bell" ' I occasionally read comments about how 'Bell has not recanted', or 'Bell still believes in his AP idea'. As if, they are somehow shocked to discover that I really still support my AP idea. Why should I recant? Why should I abandon my discovery/invention? Does our world still have injustice, in the way this current Reddit item describes? Does our world still have militaries, taxation to fund them, wars, and nuclear weapons? Does anybody (else) have a credible idea to solve these problems? I will recant AP when, and only when, the world figures out a way to solve ALL of its problems that AP would otherwise solve. Which will NEVER occur. Jim Bell ----------------------------- From that cite shown above: ----------------------------- "I represented the man who this ex-NYPD detective lied into a violent felony indictment. Michael Bergman completely fabricated a fake crime out of spite. If convicted, would’ve faced minimum 3.5 years in prison. Max 15. Today, the liar only got probation. "I remember first meeting Mr. Barbosa. In interview cells attached to the cage behind the arraignment courtroom in Brooklyn criminal court. Like everyone I represent I don’t get to choose. I just happened to be working that day, & a file with his name & charges was handed to me. "The charges were serious. Detective Bergman claimed that after stopping Mr. Barbosa’s car, he accelerated backwards at a high rate of speed, then turned the car toward the Detective. Was right in between headlines. And slammed on gas. Bergman dove out of the way to save his life. "Mr. Barbosa was in a world of trouble. Charged w/ attempted assault in first degree. A Class C violent felony. A brazen act of violence. I wondered what he was thinking. What motivated this? I walked thru the door into the jail directly behind the “In God We Trust” sign in court. I called his name & he walked in. Tired. Not feeling well. Shaking his head. I told him his charges. And he forcefully denied it. “Didn’t happen. These cops have been harassing me for months. I was parked. They pulled up. I drove off. That was it.” I pressed him more. “Why on earth would they make something like this up?” I asked. Cops lie all the time. To justify bad stops & frisks, excessive use of force. Sometimes they plant evidence. Big lies. Small lies. Here: there was no motivation. He wasn’t injured. They didn’t find anything on him. “I honesty don’t know. They don’t like me, but saying I did this?” He trailed off. Put head down. He was really upset. I was having a hard time still believing him. “So you just pulled out? Didn’t accidentally almost hit him?” He shook his head no. “I’ll look for video,” I said. A reaction to the idea of video surveillance can sometimes be a tell. If not so enthusiastic, it’s likely the video won’t be helpful. But he jumped up: “There’s video?!” “I don’t know. I’ll definitely be looking for it.” “Please, please do. Otherwise it’s my word vs. his.” Mr. Barbosa knew the reality then: Police can generally say whatever they want. And they know that generally, no matter what, prosecutors, judges, & in the rare case that makes it that far, juries, will believe them over the accused. He was in a serious predicament. Life & death. Based on this allegation, Mr. Barbosa was remanded to Rikers Island by parole. While he sat on Rikers, Det. Bergman made the decision to take his lie a step further. He could’ve stopped w/ the lie in paperwork. Just let it go. Instead he decided to testify before the grand jury. Under oath, he told the grand jury a story out of an action movie. How he had to leap out of the way to save his life. How he scratched his arm on the pavement. How he thought he was going to die. The grand jury believed him & voted to indict Barbosa. Thankfully, there was video. I happen to be blessed to work in a public defender office w/ more resources than most. We have a team of investigators, who spend all day everyday in the field. Witness interviews. Taking measurements. Visiting crime scenes. Tracking down video surveillance. They’re incredible. Just to stress the point. Most defender offices in the country don’t have any investigators. A large number of offices don’t have funding to meet their clients at first appearances but have to wait days, sometimes weeks. By then video taped over. Evidence gone. Memories faded. Just to stress the point about lack of access to counsel further: There are large swaths of the country that don’t even have defender offices at all. Judges appoint private attorneys, who get paid relative pennies for it, let alone enough to encourage them to investigate. A sham. Ok. Back to the nightmare that now-ex NYPD Detective Michael Bergman maliciously inflicted on my client, Pedro Barbosa. And the video that saved his life. I remember when Julia knocked on my door. “I got video surveillance in the Barbosa case. They lied. It’s clear.” She talked the owner of a car mechanic shop to let her copy it. She handed me a DVD. Popped it into my computer & watched. “Holy sh*t!” “I know, right!?” she said. Here is the video the investigator Julia found that exposed Det. Bergman’s lie. Mr. Barbosa parallel parks. Unmarked car pulls up. He drives off. No accelerating back. No aiming car at Bergman (driver’s side). No diving out of way. A complete fabrication. Here is another version of the video that exposed ex-NYPD detective Michael Bergman’s perjury. @nowthisnews published it with a play by play rundown. Armed with the video, I filed a motion to dismiss the charges comparing Bergman’s testimony with what actually happened (with time stamps) & submitted the motion along with a copy of the video surveillance. I got a call from the prosecutor less than a day later. He was stunned. “I watched the video. Um.” He had a hard time finding words. “Well. We’re obviously going to dismiss.” I was so relieved. I’m so used to prosecutors giving cops every imaginable benefit of the doubt, I thought there was a chance they’d find a way to see something I couldn’t. Then prosecutor asks me: “Why do you think he did this?” I told him I had no idea. But reminded him that police lie all the time. This one happened to be obvious bc it was on video. But cops lying unfortunately is an epidemic in forces around the country. I felt like a teacher. The prosecutor also told me that the Brooklyn DA’s new “Police Accountability Unit” would be considering prosecuting. I said that was fine, but more pressing: his office should be investigating every case the detective ever worked on. “That’s out of my control, but I agree.” I’ve never seen anyone smile more broadly than when I told Mr. Barbosa we found video, it totally exonerated him, & the prosecution was dismissing. He literally bounced. “I told you!” “I know.” “What happens now?” I soon found out. From the Daily News: Det. Bergman, accused of lying under oath to imprison an innocent man for up to 15 years, was released w/o bail. No outcry of course from @nypost, police & prosecutors who, as I type, are peddling their own lies to kill new bail reforms so they can jail more Black & Brown people. I later found out, this time from @nypost, that Bergman had pled guilty. The Post of course didn’t disparage Bergman as a “criminal,” “thug,” “goon,” “felon,” or “con” like they do Black people charged w/ far less. But they did call Mr. Barbosa “the perp.” Bergman was fired. A near impossibility. Prosecutors asked the judge to sentence him to a year in jail. Brooklyn DA made this statement: “The justice system must be able to rely on the integrity & credibility of our police to keep our communities safe & ensure equal justice.” Today I heard the news. The Judge took the rare step—at least in cases of people I represent—of undercutting the prosecution request for jail time & sentencing Michael Bergman to probation. As far as I know, this judge only sentences cops to probation. No matter what. Examples —> The same judge also sentenced the 2 NYPD officers who had sex w/ a teen in exchange for her freedom to probation. Pointed out that cop's conduct was mitigated bc the teenager also committed a crime by allegedly offering sex for her freedom. The same judge gave probation to this ex-NYPD cop who shot a man in the mouth twice out of jealousy & then placed a knife next to his body to cover up his crime. Akai Gurley (left) was killed by Officer Laing while walking in the stairwell of a building. Laing received probation. 2 months later, same judge sentenced Marcell Dockery (right), a teen who set fire to a mattress accidentally killing a responding officer, to 19 years to life. Michael Bergman did one of the worst things a human being could ever do to another: give false testimony that would put them in jail wrongfully. He did so brazenly and maliciously. He lied in sworn testimony before a grand jury. If investigators in my office had not found video that proved his lie, Mr. Barbosa faced a mandatory minimum of 3.5 years and a maximum of 15 years in prison. Police lying is an epidemic not just in the NYPD, but in police forces around the country. Police lie because they know they’ll rarely if ever be held to account. It is a good thing Bergman was fired and prosecuted. But probation? I just hope that this punishment sends the necessary message of zero tolerance to all on the force. I fear it won’t. -Scott Hechinger[end of long quote from Reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/Libertarian/comments/em8clw/brooklyn_public_defender_scott_hechinger_lays_out/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share ]
[I am resending this, because while I received a confirmation from the CP list a few seconds after I sent it, nevertheless after nearly 40 minutes after this, I have not yet received the posting as would have been sent by the list.] On Thursday, January 9, 2020, 12:40:40 PM PST, jim bell <jdb10987@yahoo.com> wrote: My Assassination Politics https://cryptome.org/ap.htm proposal has been extensively mistreated and unfairly opposed by people, even early on the Cypherpunks list, based on very false and especially incomplete analyses. Specifically, people write as if you can consider AP 'good' based only on it, rather than in comparison with what it will certainly replace. And yes, many people have had the opportunity, for about 25 years now, to do these comparisons. They have utterly failed to do that. Economists have a term called "opportunity cost", the costs of NOT choosing a particular course of action. Making a decision requires an analysis of not merely choosing, but also choosing NOT, to do something. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunity_cost I just read the following, from Reddit. It is a seemingly small, but virtually perfect, example of what happens when you DON'T choose to implement my Assassination Politics system. https://www.reddit.com/r/Libertarian/comments/em8clw/brooklyn_public_defender_scott_hechinger_lays_out/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share I will quote all of this below, the relevant message, in case it disappears. But I will say that in an AP world this kind of event could not occur. Why do I say that? In an AP world, this crooked detective wouldn't expect to be protected by an equally-crooked judge. In an AP world, this crooked detective would be 'donated to death', very quickly, and there would be nothing at all that anybody could do to stop this. And if a crooked judge tried to help him get away with this amazing perjury, that judge too would be 'donated to death', just as quickly. And anyone who supported him, or them. Mostly, the deterrent value of AP would make such actions unthinkable, and impossible in practice. One reason that my AP idea should be considered so good is that it must be judged in comparison with the existing world, all the bad things like this. Anybody who criticizes AP needs to explain why it would somehow be worse than today's amazing world. When I do a Google-search for things like ' "Assassination Politics" "bell" ' I occasionally read comments about how 'Bell has not recanted', or 'Bell still believes in his AP idea'. As if, they are somehow shocked to discover that I really still support my AP idea. Why should I recant? Why should I abandon my discovery/invention? Does our world still have injustice, in the way this current Reddit item describes? Does our world still have militaries, taxation to fund them, wars, and nuclear weapons? Does anybody (else) have a credible idea to solve these problems? I will recant AP when, and only when, the world figures out a way to solve ALL of its problems that AP would otherwise solve. Which will NEVER occur. Jim Bell ----------------------------- From that cite shown above: ----------------------------- "I represented the man who this ex-NYPD detective lied into a violent felony indictment. Michael Bergman completely fabricated a fake crime out of spite. If convicted, would’ve faced minimum 3.5 years in prison. Max 15. Today, the liar only got probation. "I remember first meeting Mr. Barbosa. In interview cells attached to the cage behind the arraignment courtroom in Brooklyn criminal court. Like everyone I represent I don’t get to choose. I just happened to be working that day, & a file with his name & charges was handed to me. "The charges were serious. Detective Bergman claimed that after stopping Mr. Barbosa’s car, he accelerated backwards at a high rate of speed, then turned the car toward the Detective. Was right in between headlines. And slammed on gas. Bergman dove out of the way to save his life. "Mr. Barbosa was in a world of trouble. Charged w/ attempted assault in first degree. A Class C violent felony. A brazen act of violence. I wondered what he was thinking. What motivated this? I walked thru the door into the jail directly behind the “In God We Trust” sign in court. I called his name & he walked in. Tired. Not feeling well. Shaking his head. I told him his charges. And he forcefully denied it. “Didn’t happen. These cops have been harassing me for months. I was parked. They pulled up. I drove off. That was it.” I pressed him more. “Why on earth would they make something like this up?” I asked. Cops lie all the time. To justify bad stops & frisks, excessive use of force. Sometimes they plant evidence. Big lies. Small lies. Here: there was no motivation. He wasn’t injured. They didn’t find anything on him. “I honesty don’t know. They don’t like me, but saying I did this?” He trailed off. Put head down. He was really upset. I was having a hard time still believing him. “So you just pulled out? Didn’t accidentally almost hit him?” He shook his head no. “I’ll look for video,” I said. A reaction to the idea of video surveillance can sometimes be a tell. If not so enthusiastic, it’s likely the video won’t be helpful. But he jumped up: “There’s video?!” “I don’t know. I’ll definitely be looking for it.” “Please, please do. Otherwise it’s my word vs. his.” Mr. Barbosa knew the reality then: Police can generally say whatever they want. And they know that generally, no matter what, prosecutors, judges, & in the rare case that makes it that far, juries, will believe them over the accused. He was in a serious predicament. Life & death. Based on this allegation, Mr. Barbosa was remanded to Rikers Island by parole. While he sat on Rikers, Det. Bergman made the decision to take his lie a step further. He could’ve stopped w/ the lie in paperwork. Just let it go. Instead he decided to testify before the grand jury. Under oath, he told the grand jury a story out of an action movie. How he had to leap out of the way to save his life. How he scratched his arm on the pavement. How he thought he was going to die. The grand jury believed him & voted to indict Barbosa. Thankfully, there was video. I happen to be blessed to work in a public defender office w/ more resources than most. We have a team of investigators, who spend all day everyday in the field. Witness interviews. Taking measurements. Visiting crime scenes. Tracking down video surveillance. They’re incredible. Just to stress the point. Most defender offices in the country don’t have any investigators. A large number of offices don’t have funding to meet their clients at first appearances but have to wait days, sometimes weeks. By then video taped over. Evidence gone. Memories faded. Just to stress the point about lack of access to counsel further: There are large swaths of the country that don’t even have defender offices at all. Judges appoint private attorneys, who get paid relative pennies for it, let alone enough to encourage them to investigate. A sham. Ok. Back to the nightmare that now-ex NYPD Detective Michael Bergman maliciously inflicted on my client, Pedro Barbosa. And the video that saved his life. I remember when Julia knocked on my door. “I got video surveillance in the Barbosa case. They lied. It’s clear.” She talked the owner of a car mechanic shop to let her copy it. She handed me a DVD. Popped it into my computer & watched. “Holy sh*t!” “I know, right!?” she said. Here is the video the investigator Julia found that exposed Det. Bergman’s lie. Mr. Barbosa parallel parks. Unmarked car pulls up. He drives off. No accelerating back. No aiming car at Bergman (driver’s side). No diving out of way. A complete fabrication. Here is another version of the video that exposed ex-NYPD detective Michael Bergman’s perjury. @nowthisnews published it with a play by play rundown. Armed with the video, I filed a motion to dismiss the charges comparing Bergman’s testimony with what actually happened (with time stamps) & submitted the motion along with a copy of the video surveillance. I got a call from the prosecutor less than a day later. He was stunned. “I watched the video. Um.” He had a hard time finding words. “Well. We’re obviously going to dismiss.” I was so relieved. I’m so used to prosecutors giving cops every imaginable benefit of the doubt, I thought there was a chance they’d find a way to see something I couldn’t. Then prosecutor asks me: “Why do you think he did this?” I told him I had no idea. But reminded him that police lie all the time. This one happened to be obvious bc it was on video. But cops lying unfortunately is an epidemic in forces around the country. I felt like a teacher. The prosecutor also told me that the Brooklyn DA’s new “Police Accountability Unit” would be considering prosecuting. I said that was fine, but more pressing: his office should be investigating every case the detective ever worked on. “That’s out of my control, but I agree.” I’ve never seen anyone smile more broadly than when I told Mr. Barbosa we found video, it totally exonerated him, & the prosecution was dismissing. He literally bounced. “I told you!” “I know.” “What happens now?” I soon found out. From the Daily News: Det. Bergman, accused of lying under oath to imprison an innocent man for up to 15 years, was released w/o bail. No outcry of course from @nypost, police & prosecutors who, as I type, are peddling their own lies to kill new bail reforms so they can jail more Black & Brown people. I later found out, this time from @nypost, that Bergman had pled guilty. The Post of course didn’t disparage Bergman as a “criminal,” “thug,” “goon,” “felon,” or “con” like they do Black people charged w/ far less. But they did call Mr. Barbosa “the perp.” Bergman was fired. A near impossibility. Prosecutors asked the judge to sentence him to a year in jail. Brooklyn DA made this statement: “The justice system must be able to rely on the integrity & credibility of our police to keep our communities safe & ensure equal justice.” Today I heard the news. The Judge took the rare step—at least in cases of people I represent—of undercutting the prosecution request for jail time & sentencing Michael Bergman to probation. As far as I know, this judge only sentences cops to probation. No matter what. Examples —> The same judge also sentenced the 2 NYPD officers who had sex w/ a teen in exchange for her freedom to probation. Pointed out that cop's conduct was mitigated bc the teenager also committed a crime by allegedly offering sex for her freedom. The same judge gave probation to this ex-NYPD cop who shot a man in the mouth twice out of jealousy & then placed a knife next to his body to cover up his crime. Akai Gurley (left) was killed by Officer Laing while walking in the stairwell of a building. Laing received probation. 2 months later, same judge sentenced Marcell Dockery (right), a teen who set fire to a mattress accidentally killing a responding officer, to 19 years to life. Michael Bergman did one of the worst things a human being could ever do to another: give false testimony that would put them in jail wrongfully. He did so brazenly and maliciously. He lied in sworn testimony before a grand jury. If investigators in my office had not found video that proved his lie, Mr. Barbosa faced a mandatory minimum of 3.5 years and a maximum of 15 years in prison. Police lying is an epidemic not just in the NYPD, but in police forces around the country. Police lie because they know they’ll rarely if ever be held to account. It is a good thing Bergman was fired and prosecuted. But probation? I just hope that this punishment sends the necessary message of zero tolerance to all on the force. I fear it won’t. -Scott Hechinger[end of long quote from Reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/Libertarian/comments/em8clw/brooklyn_public_defender_scott_hechinger_lays_out/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share ]
[twice in the last couple of hours I sent this, both times getting a quick confirmation as was programmed weeks, yet NOT actually getting a return from from the list itself. I will shorten the quote below to ensure that this isn't the problem.] On Thursday, January 9, 2020, 01:19:46 PM PST, jim bell <jdb10987@yahoo.com> wrote: [I am resending this, because while I received a confirmation from the CP list a few seconds after I sent it, nevertheless after nearly 40 minutes after this, I have not yet received the posting as would have been sent by the list.] On Thursday, January 9, 2020, 12:40:40 PM PST, jim bell <jdb10987@yahoo.com> wrote: My Assassination Politics https://cryptome.org/ap.htm proposal has been extensively mistreated and unfairly opposed by people, even early on the Cypherpunks list, based on very false and especially incomplete analyses. Specifically, people write as if you can consider AP 'good' based only on it, rather than in comparison with what it will certainly replace. And yes, many people have had the opportunity, for about 25 years now, to do these comparisons. They have utterly failed to do that. Economists have a term called "opportunity cost", the costs of NOT choosing a particular course of action. Making a decision requires an analysis of not merely choosing, but also choosing NOT, to do something. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunity_cost I just read the following, from Reddit. It is a seemingly small, but virtually perfect, example of what happens when you DON'T choose to implement my Assassination Politics system. https://www.reddit.com/r/Libertarian/comments/em8clw/brooklyn_public_defender_scott_hechinger_lays_out/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share I will quote all of this below, the relevant message, in case it disappears. But I will say that in an AP world this kind of event could not occur. Why do I say that? In an AP world, this crooked detective wouldn't expect to be protected by an equally-crooked judge. In an AP world, this crooked detective would be 'donated to death', very quickly, and there would be nothing at all that anybody could do to stop this. And if a crooked judge tried to help him get away with this amazing perjury, that judge too would be 'donated to death', just as quickly. And anyone who supported him, or them. Mostly, the deterrent value of AP would make such actions unthinkable, and impossible in practice. One reason that my AP idea should be considered so good is that it must be judged in comparison with the existing world, all the bad things like this. Anybody who criticizes AP needs to explain why it would somehow be worse than today's amazing world. When I do a Google-search for things like ' "Assassination Politics" "bell" ' I occasionally read comments about how 'Bell has not recanted', or 'Bell still believes in his AP idea'. As if, they are somehow shocked to discover that I really still support my AP idea. Why should I recant? Why should I abandon my discovery/invention? Does our world still have injustice, in the way this current Reddit item describes? Does our world still have militaries, taxation to fund them, wars, and nuclear weapons? Does anybody (else) have a credible idea to solve these problems? I will recant AP when, and only when, the world figures out a way to solve ALL of its problems that AP would otherwise solve. Which will NEVER occur. Jim Bell ----------------------------- From that cite shown above: ----------------------------- "I represented the man who this ex-NYPD detective lied into a violent felony indictment. Michael Bergman completely fabricated a fake crime out of spite. If convicted, would’ve faced minimum 3.5 years in prison. Max 15. Today, the liar only got probation. "I remember first meeting Mr. Barbosa. In interview cells attached to the cage behind the arraignment courtroom in Brooklyn criminal court. Like everyone I represent I don’t get to choose. I just happened to be working that day, & a file with his name & charges was handed to me. "The charges were serious. Detective Bergman claimed that after stopping Mr. Barbosa’s car, he accelerated backwards at a high rate of speed, then turned the car toward the Detective. Was right in between headlines. And slammed on gas. Bergman dove out of the way to save his life. "Mr. Barbosa was in a world of trouble. Charged w/ attempted assault in first degree. A Class C violent felony. A brazen act of violence. I wondered what he was thinking. What motivated this? I walked thru the door into the jail directly behind the “In God We Trust” sign in court. I called his name & he walked in. Tired. Not feeling well. Shaking his head. I told him his charges. And he forcefully denied it. “Didn’t happen. These cops have been harassing me for months. I was parked. They pulled up. I drove off. That was it.” I pressed him more. “Why on earth would they make something like this up?” I asked. Cops lie all the time. To justify bad stops & frisks, excessive use of force. Sometimes they plant evidence. Big lies. Small lies. Here: there was no motivation. He wasn’t injured. They didn’t find anything on him. “I honesty don’t know. They don’t like me, but saying I did this?” He trailed off. Put head down. He was really upset. I was having a hard time still believing him. “So you just pulled out? Didn’t accidentally almost hit him?” He shook his head no. “I’ll look for video,” I said. A reaction to the idea of video surveillance can sometimes be a tell. If not so enthusiastic, it’s likely the video won’t be helpful. But he jumped up: “There’s video?!” “I don’t know. I’ll definitely be looking for it.” [snip] [end of long quote from Reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/Libertarian/comments/em8clw/brooklyn_public_defender_scott_hechinger_lays_out/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share ]
I will recant AP when, and only when, the world figures out a way to solve ALL of its problems that AP would otherwise solve. Which will NEVER occur.
But you are possibly missing out on a problem AP *would* cause: mob slander of an innocent man. Your AP has to be *perfectly* accurate of its indictments. How will you do this without re-inventing "the System"? That's why I propose the Headline Target technique: more likely to get results, and more-or-less harmless if wrong. marxos
My comments inline: On Thursday, January 9, 2020, 02:38:17 PM PST, \0xDynamite <dreamingforward@gmail.com> wrote:
I will recant AP when, and only when, the world figures out a way to solve ALL of its problems that AP would otherwise solve. Which will NEVER occur.
But you are possibly missing out on a problem AP *would* cause: mob slander of an innocent man. You must not be thinking very hard. First, I will point out that your comment is ambiguous: WHICH "innocent man"? An, why would AP CAUSE that slander? If we assume you are talking about the innocent person described in the Reddit message I quoted, you seem to forget that he was given "mob slander" due to a corrupt and lying detective, not due to some not-yet-existent AP system. And that lying detective knew he was enabled by a crooked judge, who had never given any policement worse than probation. And if an AP system existed, that detective would have certainly been 'donated to death'. So, why are you now saying that AP would CAUSE that slander? Slightly more accurately, you might speculate that an AP system would not necessarily PREVENT that slander. And, I notice that you are carefully avoided quoting the large majority of my original post (and I'm not referring to my quote of the Reddit posting), which would easily disprove what you are saying. I addressed these issues; you edited those points out. Should I accuse you of dishonesty for removing them? I will re-post that material I wrote, below. > Your AP has to be *perfectly* accurate of its indictments. How will you do this without re-inventing "the System"? I would ask you to check all the discussion in the 1995 CP archives, BUT SOME CORRUPT PEOPLE TAMPERED WITH THE ARCHIVES!!! The reality is that after a couple of years post-AP, there will be a series of VOLUNTARY courts implemented, to resolve these disputes. They will have juries, and juries will do what juries have done best, find facts. I could go on, but you would ignore it.
That's why I propose the Headline Target technique: more likely to get results, and more-or-less harmless if wrong.
marxos It looks to me like you just wanted to flog YOUR idea, so you chose to criticize MY idea, but to disguise your dishonesty you deleted a key part of my comment to make it look like you made a point, and make it look like I omitted a point. Stop that. Jim Bell
--------------- the following is what I, Jim Bell, originally posted, minus the Reddit posting quoted -------------------- My Assassination Politics https://cryptome.org/ap.htm proposal has been extensively mistreated and unfairly opposed by people, even early on the Cypherpunks list, based on very false and especially incomplete analyses. Specifically, people write as if you can consider AP 'good' based only on it, rather than in comparison with what it will certainly replace. And yes, many people have had the opportunity, for about 25 years now, to do these comparisons. They have utterly failed to do that. Economists have a term called "opportunity cost", the costs of NOT choosing a particular course of action. Making a decision requires an analysis of not merely choosing, but also choosing NOT, to do something. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunity_cost I just read the following, from Reddit. It is a seemingly small, but virtually perfect, example of what happens when you DON'T choose to implement my Assassination Politics system. r/Libertarian - Brooklyn Public Defender Scott Hechinger lays out the story of his client, facing 15 years for a cop's lie. Fortunately there was video. Yesterday the cop got probation from Justice Chun, who has never sentenced a cop to anything else | | | | | | | | | | | r/Libertarian - Brooklyn Public Defender Scott Hechinger lays out the st... 1,474 votes and 144 comments so far on Reddit | | | I will quote all of this below, the relevant message, in case it disappears. But I will say that in an AP world this kind of event could not occur. Why do I say that? In an AP world, this crooked detective wouldn't expect to be protected by an equally-crooked judge. In an AP world, this crooked detective would be 'donated to death', very quickly, and there would be nothing at all that anybody could do to stop this. And if a crooked judge tried to help him get away with this amazing perjury, that judge too would be 'donated to death', just as quickly. And anyone who supported him, or them. Mostly, the deterrent value of AP would make such actions unthinkable, and impossible in practice. One reason that my AP idea should be considered so good is that it must be judged in comparison with the existing world, all the bad things like this. Anybody who criticizes AP needs to explain why it would somehow be worse than today's amazing world. When I do a Google-search for things like ' "Assassination Politics" "bell" ' I occasionally read comments about how 'Bell has not recanted', or 'Bell still believes in his AP idea'. As if, they are somehow shocked to discover that I really still support my AP idea. Why should I recant? Why should I abandon my discovery/invention? Does our world still have injustice, in the way this current Reddit item describes? Does our world still have militaries, taxation to fund them, wars, and nuclear weapons? Does anybody (else) have a credible idea to solve these problems? I will recant AP when, and only when, the world figures out a way to solve ALL of its problems that AP would otherwise solve. Which will NEVER occur. Jim Bell
Much of the judicial and prosecutorial corruption could be addressed by private criminal prosecutions. On Fri, Jan 10, 2020, 12:38 AM jim bell <jdb10987@yahoo.com> wrote:
My comments inline:
On Thursday, January 9, 2020, 02:38:17 PM PST, \0xDynamite < dreamingforward@gmail.com> wrote:
I will recant AP when, and only when, the world figures out a way to solve ALL of its problems that AP would otherwise solve. Which will NEVER occur.
But you are possibly missing out on a problem AP *would* cause: mob slander of an innocent man.
You must not be thinking very hard. First, I will point out that your comment is ambiguous: WHICH "innocent man"? An, why would AP CAUSE that slander?
If we assume you are talking about the innocent person described in the Reddit message I quoted, you seem to forget that he was given "mob slander" due to a corrupt and lying detective, not due to some not-yet-existent AP system. And that lying detective knew he was enabled by a crooked judge, who had never given any policement worse than probation. And if an AP system existed, that detective would have certainly been 'donated to death'. So, why are you now saying that AP would CAUSE that slander? Slightly more accurately, you might speculate that an AP system would not necessarily PREVENT that slander.
And, I notice that you are carefully avoided quoting the large majority of my original post (and I'm not referring to my quote of the Reddit posting), which would easily disprove what you are saying. I addressed these issues; you edited those points out. Should I accuse you of dishonesty for removing them? I will re-post that material I wrote, below.
Your AP has to be *perfectly* accurate of its indictments. How will you do this without re-inventing "the System"?
I would ask you to check all the discussion in the 1995 CP archives, BUT SOME CORRUPT PEOPLE TAMPERED WITH THE ARCHIVES!!!
The reality is that after a couple of years post-AP, there will be a series of VOLUNTARY courts implemented, to resolve these disputes. They will have juries, and juries will do what juries have done best, find facts. I could go on, but you would ignore it.
That's why I propose the Headline Target technique: more likely to get results, and more-or-less harmless if wrong.
marxos
It looks to me like you just wanted to flog YOUR idea, so you chose to criticize MY idea, but to disguise your dishonesty you deleted a key part of my comment to make it look like you made a point, and make it look like I omitted a point. Stop that.
Jim Bell
--------------- the following is what I, Jim Bell, originally posted, minus the Reddit posting quoted --------------------
My Assassination Politics https://cryptome.org/ap.htm proposal has been extensively mistreated and unfairly opposed by people, even early on the Cypherpunks list, based on very false and especially incomplete analyses. Specifically, people write as if you can consider AP 'good' based only on it, rather than in comparison with what it will certainly replace. And yes, many people have had the opportunity, for about 25 years now, to do these comparisons. They have utterly failed to do that.
Economists have a term called "opportunity cost", the costs of NOT choosing a particular course of action. Making a decision requires an analysis of not merely choosing, but also choosing NOT, to do something. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunity_cost
I just read the following, from Reddit. It is a seemingly small, but virtually perfect, example of what happens when you DON'T choose to implement my Assassination Politics system.
r/Libertarian - Brooklyn Public Defender Scott Hechinger lays out the story of his client, facing 15 years for a cop's lie. Fortunately there was video. Yesterday the cop got probation from Justice Chun, who has never sentenced a cop to anything else <https://www.reddit.com/r/Libertarian/comments/em8clw/brooklyn_public_defender_scott_hechinger_lays_out/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share>
r/Libertarian - Brooklyn Public Defender Scott Hechinger lays out the st...
1,474 votes and 144 comments so far on Reddit
I will quote all of this below, the relevant message, in case it disappears. But I will say that in an AP world this kind of event could not occur. Why do I say that? In an AP world, this crooked detective wouldn't expect to be protected by an equally-crooked judge. In an AP world, this crooked detective would be 'donated to death', very quickly, and there would be nothing at all that anybody could do to stop this. And if a crooked judge tried to help him get away with this amazing perjury, that judge too would be 'donated to death', just as quickly. And anyone who supported him, or them. Mostly, the deterrent value of AP would make such actions unthinkable, and impossible in practice.
One reason that my AP idea should be considered so good is that it must be judged in comparison with the existing world, all the bad things like this. Anybody who criticizes AP needs to explain why it would somehow be worse than today's amazing world.
When I do a Google-search for things like ' "Assassination Politics" "bell" ' I occasionally read comments about how 'Bell has not recanted', or 'Bell still believes in his AP idea'. As if, they are somehow shocked to discover that I really still support my AP idea. Why should I recant? Why should I abandon my discovery/invention? Does our world still have injustice, in the way this current Reddit item describes? Does our world still have militaries, taxation to fund them, wars, and nuclear weapons? Does anybody (else) have a credible idea to solve these problems?
I will recant AP when, and only when, the world figures out a way to solve ALL of its problems that AP would otherwise solve. Which will NEVER occur.
Jim Bell
Yes, as I understand it UK has private prosecutions. Perhaps someone from UK can explain how well they work. I am pessimistic that they will ever be truly allowed in America, for reasons which are obvious. "The system" would be effectively agreeing to be enforced by the rules they claim to be, but are actually not, ruled by. Jim Bell On Friday, January 10, 2020, 05:28:03 AM PST, Steven Schear <schear.steve@gmail.com> wrote: Much of the judicial and prosecutorial corruption could be addressed by private criminal prosecutions. On Fri, Jan 10, 2020, 12:38 AM jim bell <jdb10987@yahoo.com> wrote: My comments inline: On Thursday, January 9, 2020, 02:38:17 PM PST, \0xDynamite <dreamingforward@gmail.com> wrote:
I will recant AP when, and only when, the world figures out a way to solve ALL of its problems that AP would otherwise solve. Which will NEVER occur.
But you are possibly missing out on a problem AP *would* cause: mob slander of an innocent man. You must not be thinking very hard. First, I will point out that your comment is ambiguous: WHICH "innocent man"? An, why would AP CAUSE that slander? If we assume you are talking about the innocent person described in the Reddit message I quoted, you seem to forget that he was given "mob slander" due to a corrupt and lying detective, not due to some not-yet-existent AP system. And that lying detective knew he was enabled by a crooked judge, who had never given any policement worse than probation. And if an AP system existed, that detective would have certainly been 'donated to death'. So, why are you now saying that AP would CAUSE that slander? Slightly more accurately, you might speculate that an AP system would not necessarily PREVENT that slander. And, I notice that you are carefully avoided quoting the large majority of my original post (and I'm not referring to my quote of the Reddit posting), which would easily disprove what you are saying. I addressed these issues; you edited those points out. Should I accuse you of dishonesty for removing them? I will re-post that material I wrote, below. > Your AP has to be *perfectly* accurate of its indictments. How will you do this without re-inventing "the System"? I would ask you to check all the discussion in the 1995 CP archives, BUT SOME CORRUPT PEOPLE TAMPERED WITH THE ARCHIVES!!! The reality is that after a couple of years post-AP, there will be a series of VOLUNTARY courts implemented, to resolve these disputes. They will have juries, and juries will do what juries have done best, find facts. I could go on, but you would ignore it.
That's why I propose the Headline Target technique: more likely to get results, and more-or-less harmless if wrong.
marxos It looks to me like you just wanted to flog YOUR idea, so you chose to criticize MY idea, but to disguise your dishonesty you deleted a key part of my comment to make it look like you made a point, and make it look like I omitted a point. Stop that. Jim Bell
--------------- the following is what I, Jim Bell, originally posted, minus the Reddit posting quoted -------------------- My Assassination Politics https://cryptome.org/ap.htm proposal has been extensively mistreated and unfairly opposed by people, even early on the Cypherpunks list, based on very false and especially incomplete analyses. Specifically, people write as if you can consider AP 'good' based only on it, rather than in comparison with what it will certainly replace. And yes, many people have had the opportunity, for about 25 years now, to do these comparisons. They have utterly failed to do that. Economists have a term called "opportunity cost", the costs of NOT choosing a particular course of action. Making a decision requires an analysis of not merely choosing, but also choosing NOT, to do something. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunity_cost I just read the following, from Reddit. It is a seemingly small, but virtually perfect, example of what happens when you DON'T choose to implement my Assassination Politics system. r/Libertarian - Brooklyn Public Defender Scott Hechinger lays out the story of his client, facing 15 years for a cop's lie. Fortunately there was video. Yesterday the cop got probation from Justice Chun, who has never sentenced a cop to anything else | | | | | | | | | | | r/Libertarian - Brooklyn Public Defender Scott Hechinger lays out the st... 1,474 votes and 144 comments so far on Reddit | | | I will quote all of this below, the relevant message, in case it disappears. But I will say that in an AP world this kind of event could not occur. Why do I say that? In an AP world, this crooked detective wouldn't expect to be protected by an equally-crooked judge. In an AP world, this crooked detective would be 'donated to death', very quickly, and there would be nothing at all that anybody could do to stop this. And if a crooked judge tried to help him get away with this amazing perjury, that judge too would be 'donated to death', just as quickly. And anyone who supported him, or them. Mostly, the deterrent value of AP would make such actions unthinkable, and impossible in practice. One reason that my AP idea should be considered so good is that it must be judged in comparison with the existing world, all the bad things like this. Anybody who criticizes AP needs to explain why it would somehow be worse than today's amazing world. When I do a Google-search for things like ' "Assassination Politics" "bell" ' I occasionally read comments about how 'Bell has not recanted', or 'Bell still believes in his AP idea'. As if, they are somehow shocked to discover that I really still support my AP idea. Why should I recant? Why should I abandon my discovery/invention? Does our world still have injustice, in the way this current Reddit item describes? Does our world still have militaries, taxation to fund them, wars, and nuclear weapons? Does anybody (else) have a credible idea to solve these problems? I will recant AP when, and only when, the world figures out a way to solve ALL of its problems that AP would otherwise solve. Which will NEVER occur. Jim Bell
On Fri, Jan 10, 2020 at 01:27:49PM +0000, Steven Schear wrote:
Much of the judicial and prosecutorial corruption could be addressed by private criminal prosecutions.
Is there a Howto or treatise/ paper on how such things "should" work? Do they involve an adjudicating authority, and are such things only agreed prior to (assuming written) contract engagement? Good education, rather than schooling to create good employees, might go a long way to inculcating and otherwise manifesting higher intentions in 'the average human'. We also need to get orf the hampster mill ... member the Fed; little space for 'the average human' to put mind into gear and body into action in pursuit of those higher intentions otherwise.
On Thu, 9 Jan 2020 22:10:23 +0000 (UTC) jim bell <jdb10987@yahoo.com> wrote:
[twice in the last couple of hours I sent this,
yes, we got it THREE TIMES https://lists.cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/2020-January/078865.html https://lists.cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/2020-January/078867.html https://lists.cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/2020-January/078869.html you can check the archive before needlessly resending
On Thursday, January 9, 2020, 03:13:21 PM PST, Punk-Stasi 2.0 <punks@tfwno.gf> wrote: On Thu, 9 Jan 2020 22:10:23 +0000 (UTC) jim bell <jdb10987@yahoo.com> wrote:
[twice in the last couple of hours I sent this,
> yes, we got it THREE TIMES
https://lists.cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/2020-January/078865.html https://lists.cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/2020-January/078867.html https://lists.cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/2020-January/078869.html you can check the archive before needlessly resending
But I only got it ONE TIME. And, I notice that nobody else replied before the third time. So far, you're the only one who claim you got it more than once. Let's get some confirmation. Jim Bell
On Fri, 10 Jan 2020 00:40:38 +0000 (UTC) jim bell <jdb10987@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Thursday, January 9, 2020, 03:13:21 PM PST, Punk-Stasi 2.0 <punks@tfwno.gf> wrote:
On Thu, 9 Jan 2020 22:10:23 +0000 (UTC) jim bell <jdb10987@yahoo.com> wrote:
[twice in the last couple of hours I sent this,
> yes, we got it THREE TIMES
https://lists.cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/2020-January/078865.html https://lists.cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/2020-January/078867.html https://lists.cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/2020-January/078869.html you can check the archive before needlessly resending
But I only got it ONE TIME. And, I notice that nobody else replied before the third time. So far, you're the only one who claim you got it more than once. Let's get some confirmation.
I got it 3 times and it appears 3 times in the archive. If you see it in the archive, that means the server sent it to all subscribers. Unless you want to believe that mailman has been especially tweaked to sabotage your messages...
Jim, my dear, I also received 3 (three) copies of your message. I am late and don't know what is exactly happening, but I got all of them and your observations about forwarding the messages twice more because you didn't receive the copy of your own message(s). Tender hugs, take care! Have an amazing year and an awesome life!!! <3 Ceci
On Fri, Jan 10, 2020 at 12:40:38AM +0000, jim bell wrote:
On Thursday, January 9, 2020, 03:13:21 PM PST, Punk-Stasi 2.0 <punks@tfwno.gf> wrote: On Thu, 9 Jan 2020 22:10:23 +0000 (UTC) jim bell <jdb10987@yahoo.com> wrote:
[twice in the last couple of hours I sent this, > yes, we got it THREE TIMES https://lists.cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/2020-January/078865.html https://lists.cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/2020-January/078867.html https://lists.cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/2020-January/078869.html you can check the archive before needlessly resending
But I only got it ONE TIME. And, I notice that nobody else replied before the third time. So far, you're the only one who claim you got it more than once. Let's get some confirmation.
I received all three (second 2 being replies), and various follow ups. I have noticed inconsistent "email system" timing - there's (sometimes or always?) a delay on receiving my own posts, if I've already sent say 2 to the list in "recent time" - haven't bothered to narrow down what "recent time" is though... That has caught me surprised a few times. Occasionally my ISP decides an email must go to a black hole (usually when the word "snowflake" appears too many times).
On Thursday, January 9, 2020, 05:51:50 PM PST, Zenaan Harkness <zen@freedbms.net> wrote: On Fri, Jan 10, 2020 at 12:40:38AM +0000, jim bell wrote:
On Thursday, January 9, 2020, 03:13:21 PM PST, Punk-Stasi 2.0 <punks@tfwno.gf> wrote: On Thu, 9 Jan 2020 22:10:23 +0000 (UTC) jim bell <jdb10987@yahoo.com> wrote:
[twice in the last couple of hours I sent this, > yes, we got it THREE TIMES https://lists.cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/2020-January/078865.html https://lists.cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/2020-January/078867.html https://lists.cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/2020-January/078869.html you can check the archive before needlessly resending
But I only got it ONE TIME. And, I notice that nobody else replied before the third time. So far, you're the only one who claim you got it more than once. Let's get some confirmation.
I received all three (second 2 being replies), and various follow ups. I don't know what you meant, "second 2 being replies". I tried to send this three times. The first and second times, I received a special confirmation email that said the server had received it, but nevertheless it did not appear in any routine email sent back to me, as would normally occur.The third time I shortened it to a substantial degree, by shortening a quote from Reddit. Only on this third attempt did it eventually return from the CP list as would an actual posting. So, I still don't know what's going on. Jim Bell
On Fri, Jan 10, 2020 at 08:12:38AM +0000, jim bell wrote:
I don't know what you meant, "second 2 being replies".
This means that your second and third versions of the email have the letters "Re:" (without the quotes) in the "Subject:" line.
I tried to send this three times. The first and second times, I received a special confirmation email that said the server had received it, but nevertheless it did not appear in any routine email sent back to me, as would normally occur.The third time I shortened it to a substantial degree, by shortening a quote from Reddit. Only on this third attempt did it eventually return from the CP list as would an actual posting. So, I still don't know what's going on.
If you have a spam folder, check that perhaps... dunno, good luck.
On January 10, 2020 12:40:38 AM UTC, jim bell <jdb10987@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Thursday, January 9, 2020, 03:13:21 PM PST, Punk-Stasi 2.0 <punks@tfwno.gf> wrote:
On Thu, 9 Jan 2020 22:10:23 +0000 (UTC) jim bell <jdb10987@yahoo.com> wrote:
[twice in the last couple of hours I sent this,
> yes, we got it THREE TIMES
https://lists.cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/2020-January/078865.html https://lists.cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/2020-January/078867.html https://lists.cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/2020-January/078869.html you can check the archive before needlessly resending
But I only got it ONE TIME. And, I notice that nobody else replied before the third time. So far, you're the only one who claim you got it more than once. Let's get some confirmation. Jim Bell
To add to the spam - I got it three times. His point was you could look at the archives, if it's in the archives you can feel quite confident that it made it to the list. And if was in the archives.... Three times.
On Friday, January 10, 2020, 06:40:28 AM PST, John Newman <jnn@synfin.org> wrote: On January 10, 2020 12:40:38 AM UTC, jim bell <jdb10987@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Thursday, January 9, 2020, 03:13:21 PM PST, Punk-Stasi 2.0 <punks@tfwno.gf> wrote:
On Thu, 9 Jan 2020 22:10:23 +0000 (UTC) jim bell <jdb10987@yahoo.com> wrote:
[twice in the last couple of hours I sent this,
> yes, we got it THREE TIMES
https://lists.cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/2020-January/078865.html https://lists.cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/2020-January/078867.html https://lists.cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/2020-January/078869.html you can check the archive before needlessly resending
But I only got it ONE TIME. And, I notice that nobody else replied before the third time. So far, you're the only one who claim you got it more than once. Let's get some confirmation. Jim Bell
To add to the spam - I got it three times.
His point was you could look at the archives, if it's in the archives you can feel quite confident that it made it to the list. And if was in the archives.... Three times.
But TWO times it WAS NOT SENT TO ME! THAT is the failure of which I am complaining. That is a discrete claim of a defect which, so far, nobody in a position seems to be interested in solving. The reason I was signed up to receive those special confirmations is that a few months ago, the same thing happened to me. Jim Bell Jim Bell
Hi, Greg! Hope you and all those you love are doing well and feeling pretty happy! :D Sorry for disturbing you were the list's problems, but may you help here, please? Pardon, dear, I didn't snip the old messages to show you, more or less, the sequence of the events. May you give a help to Jim, please? Thank you so, so much since now!!! Love you!!! <3 Much love, CypherPunks! Take care, be happy, and celebrate! It's Friday!!! :D :D :D On Fri, Jan 10, 2020, 14:28 jim bell <jdb10987@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Friday, January 10, 2020, 06:40:28 AM PST, John Newman <jnn@synfin.org> wrote:
On January 10, 2020 12:40:38 AM UTC, jim bell <jdb10987@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Thursday, January 9, 2020, 03:13:21 PM PST, Punk-Stasi 2.0 <punks@tfwno.gf> wrote:
On Thu, 9 Jan 2020 22:10:23 +0000 (UTC) jim bell <jdb10987@yahoo.com> wrote:
[twice in the last couple of hours I sent this,
yes, we got it THREE TIMES
https://lists.cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/2020-January/078865.html
https://lists.cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/2020-January/078867.html
https://lists.cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/2020-January/078869.html
you can check the archive before needlessly resending
But I only got it ONE TIME. And, I notice that nobody else replied before the third time. So far, you're the only one who claim you got it more than once. Let's get some confirmation. Jim Bell
To add to the spam - I got it three times.
His point was you could look at the archives, if it's in the archives you can feel quite confident that it made it to the list. And if was in the archives.... Three times.
But TWO times it WAS NOT SENT TO ME! THAT is the failure of which I am complaining. That is a discrete claim of a defect which, so far, nobody in a position seems to be interested in solving.
The reason I was signed up to receive those special confirmations is that a few months ago, the same thing happened to me.
Jim Bell
Jim Bell
[twice in the last couple of hours I sent this,
yes, we got it THREE TIMES
https://lists.cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/2020-January/078865.html
https://lists.cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/2020-January/078867.html
https://lists.cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/2020-January/078869.html
you can check the archive before needlessly resending
But I only got it ONE TIME. And, I notice that nobody else replied before the third time. So far, you're the only one who claim you got it more than once. Let's get some confirmation.
At the risk of getting my head chopped off: How many times did you SEND it? I think what you're noticing is apathy that has grown in America/Europe since the use of psychiatric meds, like prozac and anti-depressats. 'Shit ain't free, and that stuff is robbing the collective consciousness and turning us all into passive cows.
On Friday, January 10, 2020, 11:09:24 AM PST, \0xDynamite <dreamingforward@gmail.com> wrote:
[twice in the last couple of hours I sent this,
yes, we got it THREE TIMES
https://lists.cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/2020-January/078865.html
https://lists.cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/2020-January/078867.html
https://lists.cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/2020-January/078869.html
you can check the archive before needlessly resending
But I only got it ONE TIME. And, I notice that nobody else replied before the third time. So far, you're the only one who claim you got it more than once. Let's get some confirmation.
At the risk of getting my head chopped off: How many times did you SEND it?
TWICE I sent it at its full length, including an extensive quote from Reddit. (because that quote might eventually disappear, I felt.) Both times I received an acknowledgement from the server, but both times I did not actually receive it back as a list-message. The third time I sent it, but I greatly shortened (but did not eliminate) the Reddit text. I suspected that maybe the length of the message was a problem.That third time, I received both the acknowledgement, AND the posting back to me as a list message. From my standpoint, the system clearly has a problem. Jim Bell
it seems that once in a while the confirmation messages are not set, or get lost. Big deal. You can check the archive to see if the server received your message, and if it did, you can assume the server sent it to all of us. ARCHIVE https://lists.cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/
On Fri, Jan 10, 2020 at 04:50:51PM -0300, Punk-Stasi 2.0 wrote:
it seems that once in a while the confirmation messages are not set, or get lost. Big deal. You can check the archive to see if the server received your message, and if it did, you can assume the server sent it to all of us.
Yes, exactly. Check your spam filters etc. in case messages to you are eaten by your own mail system. Mail deliver to & from the PGLAF server that hosts lists.cpunks.org seems to be robust (i.e., I get notifications about various bounces etc., and there are surprisingly few problems). Note especially that GMail and probably a few other web-based interfaces *refuse* to show you a copy of your own posting, even if it arrives in your inbox. At https://lists.cpunks.org you can use your personal subscriber password (or ask for it to be set/sent), to turn on an automated acknowledgment for every message you send. There are a few other settings you can tweak there, too. But the bottom line is: check the archive, above (no login/password required), to confirm whether your message was posted to the list. There used to be a few situations where messages were silently rejected (such as when having too many cc: or to: recipients). I think we have now set things so that anything that is received, but not posted, will generate some sort of message back to the posting address. In other words, rejection or moderation or other failures to post SHOULD result in an email back to you explaining what happened. - Greg
On 1/13/20 9:25 AM, John Young wrote:
Complaints about list processing is a venerable troll of public masturbation.
I've never noticed any problems with Cypherpunks mailing operations and I never in my life expected any listserv, newsgroup, blogging site, anywhere, to be responsible for the maintenance of my posts over time. There are cloud services that do that. Anyone who expects anyone except an operation that claims to do that as a business ... expects someone else to take care of their shit, is a mentally deficient child-adult. A spoiled brat mentally-deficient child-adult. Rr
On Mon, Jan 13, 2020, 13:56 Greg Newby <gbnewby@pglaf.org> wrote:
On Fri, Jan 10, 2020 at 04:50:51PM -0300, Punk-Stasi 2.0 wrote:
it seems that once in a while the confirmation messages are not
set, or get lost. Big deal. You can check the archive to see if the server received your message, and if it did, you can assume the server sent it to all of us.
ARCHIVE
https://lists.cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/
Yes, exactly. Check your spam filters etc. in case messages to you are eaten by your own mail system. Mail deliver to & from the PGLAF server that hosts lists.cpunks.org seems to be robust (i.e., I get notifications about various bounces etc., and there are surprisingly few problems).
Note especially that GMail and probably a few other web-based interfaces *refuse* to show you a copy of your own posting, even if it arrives in your inbox.
At https://lists.cpunks.org you can use your personal subscriber password (or ask for it to be set/sent), to turn on an automated acknowledgment for every message you send. There are a few other settings you can tweak there, too.
But the bottom line is: check the archive, above (no login/password required), to confirm whether your message was posted to the list.
There used to be a few situations where messages were silently rejected (such as when having too many cc: or to: recipients). I think we have now set things so that anything that is received, but not posted, will generate some sort of message back to the posting address. In other words, rejection or moderation or other failures to post SHOULD result in an email back to you explaining what happened.
Thanks a lot for being so didactic and patient, guys. Love you both very much!! <3 Hope the complaints cease now. Greg is doing a great work here, exactly like Riad and all the others did before him. <3
On January 10, 2020 7:42:47 PM UTC, jim bell <jdb10987@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Friday, January 10, 2020, 11:09:24 AM PST, \0xDynamite <dreamingforward@gmail.com> wrote:
[twice in the last couple of hours I sent this,
yes, we got it THREE TIMES
https://lists.cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/2020-January/078865.html
https://lists.cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/2020-January/078867.html
https://lists.cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/2020-January/078869.html
you can check the archive before needlessly resending
But I only got it ONE TIME. And, I notice that nobody else replied before the third time. So far, you're the only one who claim you got it more than once. Let's get some confirmation.
At the risk of getting my head chopped off: How many times did you SEND it?
TWICE I sent it at its full length, including an extensive quote from Reddit. (because that quote might eventually disappear, I felt.) Both times I received an acknowledgement from the server, but both times I did not actually receive it back as a list-message. The third time I sent it, but I greatly shortened (but did not eliminate) the Reddit text. I suspected that maybe the length of the message was a problem.That third time, I received both the acknowledgement, AND the posting back to me as a list message. From my standpoint, the system clearly has a problem. Jim Bell
I suspect if there was an actual technical problem it was on your end, since everyone else who has chimed in got all your submissions, and they made it into the archives. Did you do any debugging on your end? Do you really think this is something nefarious? You seem to have a habit of complaining, loudly, when other people don't jump all over your technical issues.
Now is my turn, haha. I haven't received any messages for a day or so, but I see that new messages have been posted. Wondering if I've been unsubscribed somehow - or cock.li is playing up.
On Sun, Jan 12, 2020 at 09:42:48PM -0300, Punk-Stasi 2.0 wrote:
Now is my turn, haha. I haven't received any messages for a day or so, but I see that new messages have been posted. Wondering if I've been unsubscribed somehow - or cock.li is playing up.
You're not unsubscribed, otherwise you would not have been able to post this message. - Greg
On 1/12/20 20:15, Greg Newby wrote:
You're not unsubscribed, otherwise you would not have been able to post this message.
When was the change made to only allow subscribers to post? -- Shawn K. Quinn <skquinn@rushpost.com> http://www.rantroulette.com http://www.skqrecordquest.com
On Mon, Jan 13, 2020 at 03:12:57AM -0600, Shawn K. Quinn wrote:
On 1/12/20 20:15, Greg Newby wrote:
You're not unsubscribed, otherwise you would not have been able to post this message.
When was the change made to only allow subscribers to post?
Sometime after my posts pushed the "uncensored" boundary a little too far for folks. Sorry about that; I'm sure you never noticed, but I'm a bit of a compulsive boundary tester. Shuffles off to find a brown paper bag... PS: I also hoped to avoid World War 3 via the possible election of Hillary Clinton, and amplifying her moral and legal crimes seemed to be about the only path available... which you might say added a certain .. intensity to my compulsive boundary testing.
On 1/13/20 1:12 AM, Shawn K. Quinn wrote:
On 1/12/20 20:15, Greg Newby wrote:
You're not unsubscribed, otherwise you would not have been able to post this message. When was the change made to only allow subscribers to post?
WTF kind of listserv allows posts from non-subscribers? Never heard of any such thing, and the only reason I can see for that arrangment is to destroy the usability of a list and clog it's servers with spam instead of posts on the topic(s) relevant to the list. Rr
On Mon, Jan 13, 2020 at 08:41:06AM -0800, Razer wrote:
On 1/13/20 1:12 AM, Shawn K. Quinn wrote:
On 1/12/20 20:15, Greg Newby wrote:
You're not unsubscribed, otherwise you would not have been able to post this message. When was the change made to only allow subscribers to post?
WTF kind of listserv allows posts from non-subscribers? Never heard of any such thing, and the only reason I can see for that arrangment is to destroy the usability of a list and clog it's servers with spam instead of posts on the topic(s) relevant to the list.
Rr
The cypherpunks list has only allowed subscribers to post since it moved to Mailman (i.e., years ago). When non-subscribers try to post, they get an automated response. At least some of the Cypherpunks Distributed Remailers (CDRs) and predecessor lists allowed anyone to post, as evidenced by the massive quantities of spam in the cypherpunks-legacy archive (now at https://lists.cpunks.org). My recollection (from later years of CDRs, when I joined) was that some CDRs restricted to subscribers. But some did not. And all CDRs would allow all traffic from all other CDRs (more or less...). - Greg
On 1/13/20 10:41, Razer wrote:
On 1/13/20 1:12 AM, Shawn K. Quinn wrote:
When was the change made to only allow subscribers to post?
WTF kind of listserv allows posts from non-subscribers? Never heard of any such thing, and the only reason I can see for that arrangment is to destroy the usability of a list and clog it's servers with spam instead of posts on the topic(s) relevant to the list.
Previous incarnations of the cypherpunks list did allow non-subscribers to post, particularly anonymous remailers. As far as "destroy[ing] the usability of a list and clog[ging] its servers with [off-topic or irrelevant posts]", that's orthogonal to whether or not subscribers can post though it does raise the bar ever so slightly. I'm still trying to figure out why generic posts about politics, particularly those that highlight race, religion/national origin, or beliefs of certain people more so than the actual issue, have to do with the nominal topic of what I'd expect a cypherpunks list to be. -- Shawn K. Quinn <skquinn@rushpost.com> http://www.rantroulette.com http://www.skqrecordquest.com
On 1/12/20 4:42 PM, Punk-Stasi 2.0 wrote:
Now is my turn, haha. I haven't received any messages for a day or so, but I see that new messages have been posted. Wondering if I've been unsubscribed somehow - or cock.li is playing up.
I've been seeing your messages. Maybe the email relay server thinks the copies going back to you are spam and shitcans them. Good luck figuring out which relay, and even better luck figuring out how to contact and convince the operator to de-list crock.lie from their spam list. The domain name alone says "Spam that belongs in the the bitbucket". Rr
Now is my turn, haha. I haven't received any messages for a day or so, but I see that new messages have been posted. Wondering if I've been unsubscribed somehow - or cock.li is playing up.
You're not unsubscribed, otherwise you would not have been able to post this message. - Greg
Yeah, thanks. So my nice punks @ cock.li account is borked. Oh well. At least it still can send...
Jim is trolling, ignore his laments. At 12:27 PM 1/10/2020, you wrote:
On Friday, January 10, 2020, 06:40:28 AM PST, John Newman <jnn@synfin.org> wrote:
On January 10, 2020 12:40:38 AM UTC, jim bell <<mailto:jdb10987@yahoo.com>jdb10987@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Thursday, January 9, 2020, 03:13:21 PM PST, Punk-Stasi 2.0 <<mailto:punks@tfwno.gf>punks@tfwno.gf> wrote:
On Thu, 9 Jan 2020 22:10:23 +0000 (UTC) jim bell <<mailto:jdb10987@yahoo.com>jdb10987@yahoo.com> wrote:
[twice in the last couple of hours I sent this,
yes, we got it THREE TIMES
https://lists.cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/2020-January/078867.html
<https://lists.cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/2020-January/078869
.html>https://lists.cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/2020-January/078869.html
you can check the archive before needlessly resending
But I only got it ONE TIME. And, I notice that nobody else replied before the third time. So far, you're the only one who claim you got it more than once. Let's get some confirmation. Jim Bell
To add to the spam - I got it three times.
His point was you could look at the archives, if it's in the archives you can feel quite confident that it made it to the list. And if was in the archives.... Three times.
But TWO times it WAS NOT SENT TO ME! THAT is the failure of which I am complaining. That is a discrete claim of a defect which, so far, nobody in a position seems to be interested in solving.
The reason I was signed up to receive those special confirmations is that a few months ago, the same thing happened to me.
Jim Bell
Jim Bell
And I got this third one too. On Thu, Jan 09, 2020 at 10:10:23PM +0000, jim bell wrote:
[twice in the last couple of hours I sent this, both times getting a quick confirmation as was programmed weeks, yet NOT actually getting a return from from the list itself. I will shorten the quote below to ensure that this isn't the problem.] On Thursday, January 9, 2020, 01:19:46 PM PST, jim bell <jdb10987@yahoo.com> wrote:
[I am resending this, because while I received a confirmation from the CP list a few seconds after I sent it, nevertheless after nearly 40 minutes after this, I have not yet received the posting as would have been sent by the list.] On Thursday, January 9, 2020, 12:40:40 PM PST, jim bell <jdb10987@yahoo.com> wrote:
My Assassination Politics https://cryptome.org/ap.htm proposal has been extensively mistreated and unfairly opposed by people, even early on the Cypherpunks list, based on very false and especially incomplete analyses. Specifically, people write as if you can consider AP 'good' based only on it, rather than in comparison with what it will certainly replace. And yes, many people have had the opportunity, for about 25 years now, to do these comparisons. They have utterly failed to do that. Economists have a term called "opportunity cost", the costs of NOT choosing a particular course of action. Making a decision requires an analysis of not merely choosing, but also choosing NOT, to do something. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunity_cost I just read the following, from Reddit. It is a seemingly small, but virtually perfect, example of what happens when you DON'T choose to implement my Assassination Politics system. https://www.reddit.com/r/Libertarian/comments/em8clw/brooklyn_public_defender_scott_hechinger_lays_out/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
I will quote all of this below, the relevant message, in case it disappears. But I will say that in an AP world this kind of event could not occur. Why do I say that? In an AP world, this crooked detective wouldn't expect to be protected by an equally-crooked judge. In an AP world, this crooked detective would be 'donated to death', very quickly, and there would be nothing at all that anybody could do to stop this. And if a crooked judge tried to help him get away with this amazing perjury, that judge too would be 'donated to death', just as quickly. And anyone who supported him, or them. Mostly, the deterrent value of AP would make such actions unthinkable, and impossible in practice. One reason that my AP idea should be considered so good is that it must be judged in comparison with the existing world, all the bad things like this. Anybody who criticizes AP needs to explain why it would somehow be worse than today's amazing world. When I do a Google-search for things like ' "Assassination Politics" "bell" ' I occasionally read comments about how 'Bell has not recanted', or 'Bell still believes in his AP idea'. As if, they are somehow shocked to discover that I really still support my AP idea. Why should I recant? Why should I abandon my discovery/invention? Does our world still have injustice, in the way this current Reddit item describes? Does our world still have militaries, taxation to fund them, wars, and nuclear weapons? Does anybody (else) have a credible idea to solve these problems? I will recant AP when, and only when, the world figures out a way to solve ALL of its problems that AP would otherwise solve. Which will NEVER occur. Jim Bell
----------------------------- From that cite shown above: ----------------------------- "I represented the man who this ex-NYPD detective lied into a violent felony indictment. Michael Bergman completely fabricated a fake crime out of spite. If convicted, would’ve faced minimum 3.5 years in prison. Max 15. Today, the liar only got probation.
"I remember first meeting Mr. Barbosa. In interview cells attached to the cage behind the arraignment courtroom in Brooklyn criminal court. Like everyone I represent I don’t get to choose. I just happened to be working that day, & a file with his name & charges was handed to me.
"The charges were serious. Detective Bergman claimed that after stopping Mr. Barbosa’s car, he accelerated backwards at a high rate of speed, then turned the car toward the Detective. Was right in between headlines. And slammed on gas. Bergman dove out of the way to save his life.
"Mr. Barbosa was in a world of trouble. Charged w/ attempted assault in first degree. A Class C violent felony. A brazen act of violence. I wondered what he was thinking. What motivated this? I walked thru the door into the jail directly behind the “In God We Trust” sign in court.
I called his name & he walked in. Tired. Not feeling well. Shaking his head. I told him his charges. And he forcefully denied it. “Didn’t happen. These cops have been harassing me for months. I was parked. They pulled up. I drove off. That was it.” I pressed him more.
“Why on earth would they make something like this up?” I asked. Cops lie all the time. To justify bad stops & frisks, excessive use of force. Sometimes they plant evidence. Big lies. Small lies. Here: there was no motivation. He wasn’t injured. They didn’t find anything on him.
“I honesty don’t know. They don’t like me, but saying I did this?” He trailed off. Put head down. He was really upset. I was having a hard time still believing him. “So you just pulled out? Didn’t accidentally almost hit him?” He shook his head no. “I’ll look for video,” I said.
A reaction to the idea of video surveillance can sometimes be a tell. If not so enthusiastic, it’s likely the video won’t be helpful. But he jumped up:
“There’s video?!”
“I don’t know. I’ll definitely be looking for it.”
[snip]
[end of long quote from Reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/Libertarian/comments/em8clw/brooklyn_public_defender_scott_hechinger_lays_out/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share ]
I also got this one. On Thu, Jan 09, 2020 at 09:19:46PM +0000, jim bell wrote:
[I am resending this, because while I received a confirmation from the CP list a few seconds after I sent it, nevertheless after nearly 40 minutes after this, I have not yet received the posting as would have been sent by the list.] On Thursday, January 9, 2020, 12:40:40 PM PST, jim bell <jdb10987@yahoo.com> wrote:
My Assassination Politics https://cryptome.org/ap.htm proposal has been extensively mistreated and unfairly opposed by people, even early on the Cypherpunks list, based on very false and especially incomplete analyses. Specifically, people write as if you can consider AP 'good' based only on it, rather than in comparison with what it will certainly replace. And yes, many people have had the opportunity, for about 25 years now, to do these comparisons. They have utterly failed to do that. Economists have a term called "opportunity cost", the costs of NOT choosing a particular course of action. Making a decision requires an analysis of not merely choosing, but also choosing NOT, to do something. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunity_cost I just read the following, from Reddit. It is a seemingly small, but virtually perfect, example of what happens when you DON'T choose to implement my Assassination Politics system. https://www.reddit.com/r/Libertarian/comments/em8clw/brooklyn_public_defender_scott_hechinger_lays_out/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
I will quote all of this below, the relevant message, in case it disappears. But I will say that in an AP world this kind of event could not occur. Why do I say that? In an AP world, this crooked detective wouldn't expect to be protected by an equally-crooked judge. In an AP world, this crooked detective would be 'donated to death', very quickly, and there would be nothing at all that anybody could do to stop this. And if a crooked judge tried to help him get away with this amazing perjury, that judge too would be 'donated to death', just as quickly. And anyone who supported him, or them. Mostly, the deterrent value of AP would make such actions unthinkable, and impossible in practice. One reason that my AP idea should be considered so good is that it must be judged in comparison with the existing world, all the bad things like this. Anybody who criticizes AP needs to explain why it would somehow be worse than today's amazing world. When I do a Google-search for things like ' "Assassination Politics" "bell" ' I occasionally read comments about how 'Bell has not recanted', or 'Bell still believes in his AP idea'. As if, they are somehow shocked to discover that I really still support my AP idea. Why should I recant? Why should I abandon my discovery/invention? Does our world still have injustice, in the way this current Reddit item describes? Does our world still have militaries, taxation to fund them, wars, and nuclear weapons? Does anybody (else) have a credible idea to solve these problems? I will recant AP when, and only when, the world figures out a way to solve ALL of its problems that AP would otherwise solve. Which will NEVER occur. Jim Bell
----------------------------- From that cite shown above: ----------------------------- "I represented the man who this ex-NYPD detective lied into a violent felony indictment. Michael Bergman completely fabricated a fake crime out of spite. If convicted, would’ve faced minimum 3.5 years in prison. Max 15. Today, the liar only got probation.
"I remember first meeting Mr. Barbosa. In interview cells attached to the cage behind the arraignment courtroom in Brooklyn criminal court. Like everyone I represent I don’t get to choose. I just happened to be working that day, & a file with his name & charges was handed to me.
"The charges were serious. Detective Bergman claimed that after stopping Mr. Barbosa’s car, he accelerated backwards at a high rate of speed, then turned the car toward the Detective. Was right in between headlines. And slammed on gas. Bergman dove out of the way to save his life.
"Mr. Barbosa was in a world of trouble. Charged w/ attempted assault in first degree. A Class C violent felony. A brazen act of violence. I wondered what he was thinking. What motivated this? I walked thru the door into the jail directly behind the “In God We Trust” sign in court.
I called his name & he walked in. Tired. Not feeling well. Shaking his head. I told him his charges. And he forcefully denied it. “Didn’t happen. These cops have been harassing me for months. I was parked. They pulled up. I drove off. That was it.” I pressed him more.
“Why on earth would they make something like this up?” I asked. Cops lie all the time. To justify bad stops & frisks, excessive use of force. Sometimes they plant evidence. Big lies. Small lies. Here: there was no motivation. He wasn’t injured. They didn’t find anything on him.
“I honesty don’t know. They don’t like me, but saying I did this?” He trailed off. Put head down. He was really upset. I was having a hard time still believing him. “So you just pulled out? Didn’t accidentally almost hit him?” He shook his head no. “I’ll look for video,” I said.
A reaction to the idea of video surveillance can sometimes be a tell. If not so enthusiastic, it’s likely the video won’t be helpful. But he jumped up:
“There’s video?!”
“I don’t know. I’ll definitely be looking for it.”
“Please, please do. Otherwise it’s my word vs. his.”
Mr. Barbosa knew the reality then: Police can generally say whatever they want. And they know that generally, no matter what, prosecutors, judges, & in the rare case that makes it that far, juries, will believe them over the accused. He was in a serious predicament. Life & death.
Based on this allegation, Mr. Barbosa was remanded to Rikers Island by parole. While he sat on Rikers, Det. Bergman made the decision to take his lie a step further. He could’ve stopped w/ the lie in paperwork. Just let it go. Instead he decided to testify before the grand jury.
Under oath, he told the grand jury a story out of an action movie. How he had to leap out of the way to save his life. How he scratched his arm on the pavement. How he thought he was going to die. The grand jury believed him & voted to indict Barbosa. Thankfully, there was video.
I happen to be blessed to work in a public defender office w/ more resources than most. We have a team of investigators, who spend all day everyday in the field. Witness interviews. Taking measurements. Visiting crime scenes. Tracking down video surveillance. They’re incredible.
Just to stress the point. Most defender offices in the country don’t have any investigators. A large number of offices don’t have funding to meet their clients at first appearances but have to wait days, sometimes weeks. By then video taped over. Evidence gone. Memories faded.
Just to stress the point about lack of access to counsel further: There are large swaths of the country that don’t even have defender offices at all. Judges appoint private attorneys, who get paid relative pennies for it, let alone enough to encourage them to investigate. A sham.
Ok. Back to the nightmare that now-ex NYPD Detective Michael Bergman maliciously inflicted on my client, Pedro Barbosa. And the video that saved his life.
I remember when Julia knocked on my door. “I got video surveillance in the Barbosa case. They lied. It’s clear.” She talked the owner of a car mechanic shop to let her copy it. She handed me a DVD. Popped it into my computer & watched. “Holy sh*t!” “I know, right!?” she said.
Here is the video the investigator Julia found that exposed Det. Bergman’s lie. Mr. Barbosa parallel parks. Unmarked car pulls up. He drives off. No accelerating back. No aiming car at Bergman (driver’s side). No diving out of way. A complete fabrication.
Here is another version of the video that exposed ex-NYPD detective Michael Bergman’s perjury.
@nowthisnews published it with a play by play rundown.
Armed with the video, I filed a motion to dismiss the charges comparing Bergman’s testimony with what actually happened (with time stamps) & submitted the motion along with a copy of the video surveillance. I got a call from the prosecutor less than a day later. He was stunned.
“I watched the video. Um.” He had a hard time finding words. “Well. We’re obviously going to dismiss.” I was so relieved. I’m so used to prosecutors giving cops every imaginable benefit of the doubt, I thought there was a chance they’d find a way to see something I couldn’t.
Then prosecutor asks me: “Why do you think he did this?” I told him I had no idea. But reminded him that police lie all the time. This one happened to be obvious bc it was on video. But cops lying unfortunately is an epidemic in forces around the country. I felt like a teacher.
The prosecutor also told me that the Brooklyn DA’s new “Police Accountability Unit” would be considering prosecuting. I said that was fine, but more pressing: his office should be investigating every case the detective ever worked on. “That’s out of my control, but I agree.”
I’ve never seen anyone smile more broadly than when I told Mr. Barbosa we found video, it totally exonerated him, & the prosecution was dismissing. He literally bounced. “I told you!” “I know.” “What happens now?” I soon found out. From the Daily News:
Det. Bergman, accused of lying under oath to imprison an innocent man for up to 15 years, was released w/o bail. No outcry of course from @nypost, police & prosecutors who, as I type, are peddling their own lies to kill new bail reforms so they can jail more Black & Brown people.
I later found out, this time from @nypost, that Bergman had pled guilty. The Post of course didn’t disparage Bergman as a “criminal,” “thug,” “goon,” “felon,” or “con” like they do Black people charged w/ far less. But they did call Mr. Barbosa “the perp.”
Bergman was fired. A near impossibility. Prosecutors asked the judge to sentence him to a year in jail. Brooklyn DA made this statement: “The justice system must be able to rely on the integrity & credibility of our police to keep our communities safe & ensure equal justice.”
Today I heard the news. The Judge took the rare step—at least in cases of people I represent—of undercutting the prosecution request for jail time & sentencing Michael Bergman to probation. As far as I know, this judge only sentences cops to probation. No matter what. Examples —>
The same judge also sentenced the 2 NYPD officers who had sex w/ a teen in exchange for her freedom to probation. Pointed out that cop's conduct was mitigated bc the teenager also committed a crime by allegedly offering sex for her freedom.
The same judge gave probation to this ex-NYPD cop who shot a man in the mouth twice out of jealousy & then placed a knife next to his body to cover up his crime.
Akai Gurley (left) was killed by Officer Laing while walking in the stairwell of a building. Laing received probation.
2 months later, same judge sentenced Marcell Dockery (right), a teen who set fire to a mattress accidentally killing a responding officer, to 19 years to life.
Michael Bergman did one of the worst things a human being could ever do to another: give false testimony that would put them in jail wrongfully. He did so brazenly and maliciously. He lied in sworn testimony before a grand jury.
If investigators in my office had not found video that proved his lie, Mr. Barbosa faced a mandatory minimum of 3.5 years and a maximum of 15 years in prison. Police lying is an epidemic not just in the NYPD, but in police forces around the country.
Police lie because they know they’ll rarely if ever be held to account. It is a good thing Bergman was fired and prosecuted. But probation? I just hope that this punishment sends the necessary message of zero tolerance to all on the force. I fear it won’t. -Scott Hechinger[end of long quote from Reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/Libertarian/comments/em8clw/brooklyn_public_defender_scott_hechinger_lays_out/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share ]
participants (11)
-
\0xDynamite -
Cecilia Tanaka -
Greg Newby -
jim bell -
John Newman -
John Young -
Punk-Stasi 2.0 -
Razer -
Shawn K. Quinn -
Steven Schear -
Zenaan Harkness