On Sep 8, 2016 5:07 PM, "John" wrote:

She is a liar, no doubt, and a scary fucked up candidate.

Important to remember Trump is equally full of shit (I don't think he

knows when he's lying), and is basically a full scale fascist. Not that Hillary isn't - but Trump is bringing the shit out in the open. Deportation squads. Reinstating torture. Etc etc etc...

Oh, but he does like Putin... ;)

Hillary, Trump, Putin... None of them is a decent and honest person. Detestable liars, full of horrible prejudices, wanting power, money and the end of the human rights. sea sea -- "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

todefend to SOMEONE ELSE'S death his right to say it.   <vbg>       

juan has no right abuse others....

On Thu, Sep 08, 2016 at 08:58:16PM -0600, Mirimir wrote:

On 09/08/2016 08:50 PM, Cypher Piggie wrote:

...

...

todefend to SOMEONE ELSE'S death his right to say it. Â <vbg>Â Â Â Â

juan has no right abuse others....

He for sure does! But maybe not so repetitiously, like a fucking bot ;)

This is the cotton wool generation, where "I have the right to a pristine auditory/ visual environment, where my ears and eyes cannot be assaulted by words which offend me", and if the word you use does offend me, I have a right to bring criminal charges against you. Safe spaces, anti-vilification, right to be not offended, right to stop others from speaking their mind. Abuses of the lanugage used to abuse perceived abusers of language. And here's another such abuse:

RACIAL DISCRIMINATION ACT 1975 - SECT 18C OFFENSIVE BEHAVIOUR BECAUSE OF RACE, COLOUR OR NATIONAL OR ETHNIC ORIGIN

Note the word "behaviour", when the section then defines behaviour as: "causes words, sounds, images or writing to be communicated to the public" which is actually speech, not behaviour. The usual abuse of language by those who wish to impose their views on the rest of the world.

On Thu, Sep 08, 2016 at 09:20:25PM -0600, Mirimir wrote:

On 09/08/2016 09:12 PM, Zenaan Harkness wrote:

...

And here's another such abuse:

Which also has no conceivable relationship to cypherpunk :)

Government abuse of statutory power to suppress free speech, you claim not relevant to cypherpunk? Whatever..

I need to be able to do two of the following three tasks. Generate a permutation of eighteen ones and eighteen zeros with equal probability for each permutation. Or equivalently shuffle eighteen black cards and eighteen red cards. Sequentially generate all possible permutations with each permutation generated once and only once. Map between permutations and scalars, such that each permutation maps to unique number, and the set of numbers that represents valid permutations is dense. Could someone point me to the relevant literature, or literature for converting between different representations of a permutation? Since there are only two classes of items being shuffled, this class of permutations has a variety of special and convenient properties.

And the wikipedia page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combinatorial_number_system. If you want some more theoretical stuff, Knuth has a chapter about combinations that's easily googleable. Mark On 12 Sep 2016 03:01, "stef" wrote:

On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 11:09:06AM +1000, James A. Donald wrote:

...

I need to be able to do two of the following three tasks.

Generate a permutation of eighteen ones and eighteen zeros with equal probability for each permutation. Or equivalently shuffle eighteen black cards and eighteen red cards.

Sequentially generate all possible permutations with each permutation generated once and only once.

Map between permutations and scalars, such that each permutation maps to unique number, and the set of numbers that represents valid permutations is dense.

Could someone point me to the relevant literature, or literature for converting between different representations of a permutation?

Since there are only two classes of items being shuffled, this class of permutations has a variety of special and convenient properties.

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/1506078/fast-permutation-number- permutation-mapping-algorithms

-- otr fp: https://www.ctrlc.hu/~stef/otr.txt

To restate the problem: Find a mapping between integers and injective functions from N to X up to a permutation of N. In this case, find a mapping between integers and an injective functions from 18 to 36.

On 9/12/2016 8:01 PM, Georgi Guninski wrote:

On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 07:50:50PM +1000, James A. Donald wrote:

...

To restate the problem: Find a mapping between integers and injective functions from N to X up to a permutation of N.

In this case, find a mapping between integers and an injective functions from 18 to 36.

Sage (open source, sagemath.org) can do at least parts of what you are asking. Not sure I get the question about injective function, but AFAICT treating the permutation as nonnegative integer in binary will do.

Example sage session:

sage: l=[0]*2+[1]*2 sage: pe=Permutations(l) sage: pe.cardinality() 6 sage: pe[0] [0, 0, 1, 1] sage: for p in pe: print p [0, 0, 1, 1] #...more

Found the the solution. Combinatorial number system. Suppose we have k cards, any one of which can be white or red, but which are otherwise indistinguishable and interchangeable. Combinatorial number system gives us a one to one mapping between integers, and all possible subsets of an n element set. Now I want a mapping between integers and all possible m element subsets of an n element set, but for m approximating n/2 the mapping is dense enough to be useful.

On 9/12/2016 11:52 AM, stef wrote:

On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 11:09:06AM +1000, James A. Donald wrote:

...

I need to be able to do two of the following three tasks.

Generate a permutation of eighteen ones and eighteen zeros with equal probability for each permutation. Or equivalently shuffle eighteen black cards and eighteen red cards.

Sequentially generate all possible permutations with each permutation generated once and only once.

Map between permutations and scalars, such that each permutation maps to unique number, and the set of numbers that represents valid permutations is dense.

Could someone point me to the relevant literature, or literature for converting between different representations of a permutation?

Since there are only two classes of items being shuffled, this class of permutations has a variety of special and convenient properties.

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/1506078/fast-permutation-number-permutat...

That link describes the case of n distinct elements. I have interchangeable elements. Thus the set of possible permutations is reduced by (18!)^2 Thus the mapping described in that link is an unacceptably sparse mapping.

On 12/09/16 02:09, James A. Donald wrote:

I need to be able to do two of the following three tasks.

Generate a permutation of eighteen ones and eighteen zeros with equal probability for each permutation. Or equivalently shuffle eighteen black cards and eighteen red cards.

Sequentially generate all possible permutations with each permutation generated once and only once.

Map between permutations and scalars, such that each permutation maps to unique number, and the set of numbers that represents valid permutations is dense.

Could someone point me to the relevant literature, or literature for converting between different representations of a permutation?

Since there are only two classes of items being shuffled, this class of permutations has a variety of special and convenient properties.

Indeed. I had a similar problem, the way I solved it was to create tables as follows - I had to do a lot of conversions. We are going to write the permutations as binary numbers, and then number them according to size. Look for the first 1 in the permutation, ie the 1 which is in the highest position. It can be at position 18, and then all the lower bits will be ones so it is permutation number 1. If the first bit is in position 19 then there are 18 possible lower-value permutations. These are permutations 2 to 19. The table value for a first bit in position 19 is 2. If the first bit is in position 20 then there are x possible permutations, permutations 20 to x. The table value for a first bit in position 20 is 20. And so on, but we have to calculate x first. Looking at permutations with a first bit in position 19, if the second bit is in position 18 then it is worth 1, if it is in position 17 then it is worth 0. If the third bit is in position 17, it is worth 1, and so on. Note that eg a fifth bit in position 14, or a 17th bit in position 3, is always worth 1, no matter where the other bits are positioned. This is true (with the appropriate value) for any combination of bitnumber and bitposition - it doesn't change if the other bits change position. So we create a table with values for the first, second, third etc bits of the permutation, and the positions in the permutation they are found in. We total those values, which gives the number of the permutation. Calculating the permutation from the permutation number is straightforward, find possible ranges and subtract. Hope this is clear, written in a rush. My email is real, you can contact me offlist. -- Peter Fairbrother

On 12/09/16 11:24, Peter Fairbrother wrote:

On 12/09/16 02:09, James A. Donald wrote:

...

I need to be able to do two of the following three tasks.

Generate a permutation of eighteen ones and eighteen zeros with equal probability for each permutation. Or equivalently shuffle eighteen black cards and eighteen red cards.

Sequentially generate all possible permutations with each permutation generated once and only once.

Map between permutations and scalars, such that each permutation maps to unique number, and the set of numbers that represents valid permutations is dense.

Could someone point me to the relevant literature, or literature for converting between different representations of a permutation?

Whether 18 ones and 18 zeros arranged together is a permutation is a bit problematic, and a question I won't go into - but much more relevant, it is a combination. If you look up elementary combination theory, aka combinatorics, eg on google or wikipedia or an elementary statistics book. you will soon find a quantity usually represented by nCr “n choose r” This is the number of ways of selecting r items from n possibilities, without replacement, when the order of selection is irrelevant. This is pretty exactly what the arrangements of 18 ones and 18 zeros you describe are. Values for nCr can be computed on some good calculators, or online calculators, or can be found using the expression nCr=n!/r!*(n-r)!. So, there are nCr = 36C18 = 9075135300 different ways of arranging 18 ones and 18 zeros. The above is standard math; the next part, converting combinations to integers and back by making and using a table, while fairly simple, is not in any textbook I know of. If we list these combinations as if they were binary numbers, in numerical order, we will find that some of them have the first, highest-value, bit set, and some do not. Of the combinations which have the highest bit set, the remaining bits will have 17 set bits in 35 bit spaces - ie, there will be 35C17 or 4537567650 possible combinations with the first bit set. There will be 36C18 - 35C17 combinations where the first bit is not set. In this case 36C18 - 35C17 = 35C17, and if we number from 0 the smallest-value combination where the first bit is set will be the 35C17 = 4537567650th combination. By repeating this, you can find the values where the highest set bit is bit34...bit18. And so on. This is one way to find the values in the table. Pascal's triangle and binomial theorem are two more, though at a deeper level they are all much the same. The important bit is that that for the second-highest set bit, and so on, the values of lesser combinations caused by that set bit only varies according to which-highest bit is set, and the position it is in. So we can list the positions of the first-highest, second-highest, and so on set bits, look up the values in the table, and add then together to get the number for a particular combination. -- Peter Fairbrother

...

Since there are only two classes of items being shuffled, this class of permutations has a variety of special and convenient properties.

Indeed.

I had a similar problem, the way I solved it was to create tables as follows - I had to do a lot of conversions.

We are going to write the permutations as binary numbers, and then number them according to size.

Look for the first 1 in the permutation, ie the 1 which is in the highest position.

It can be at position 18, and then all the lower bits will be ones so it is permutation number 1.

If the first bit is in position 19 then there are 18 possible lower-value permutations. These are permutations 2 to 19. The table value for a first bit in position 19 is 2.

If the first bit is in position 20 then there are x-20 possible permutations, permutations 20 to x. The table value for a first bit in position 20 is 20.

And so on, but we have to calculate x first.

Looking at permutations with a first bit in position 19, if the second bit is in position 18 then it is worth 1, if it is in position 17 then it is worth 0. If the third bit is in position 17, it is worth 1, and so on.

Note that eg a fifth bit in position 14, or a 17th bit in position 3, is always worth 1, no matter where the other bits are positioned.

This is true (with the appropriate value) for any combination of bitnumber and bitposition - it doesn't change if the other bits change position.

So we create a table with values for the first, second, third etc bits of the permutation, and the positions in the permutation they are found in. We total those values, which gives the number of the permutation.

Calculating the permutation from the permutation number is straightforward, find possible ranges and subtract.

Here's an example table for 3 ones and 3 zeros. The entries are written as x,y[v], where x is 1 for the first 1, and so on, y is the position of the xth 1 in the permutation, v is the table value. The number of the permutation is found by adding three values for x=1,2,3 together. position 123456 permutation | permutation number | first 1 | second 1 | third 1 | 000111 - 0 - 1,4[0] + 2,5[0] + 3,6[0] 001011 - 1 - 1,3[1] + 2,5[0] + 3,6[0] 001101 - 2 - 1,3[1] + 2,4[1] + 3,6[0] 001110 - 3 - 1,3[1] + 2,4[1] + 3,5[1] 010011 - 4 - 1,2[4] + 2,5[0] + 3,6[0] 010101 - 5 - 1,2[4] + 2,4[1] + 3,6[0] 010110 - 6 - 1,2[4] + 2,4[1] + 3,5[1] 011001 - 7 - 1,2[4] + 2,3[3] + 3,6[0] 011010 - 8 - 1,2[4] + 2,3[3] + 3,5[1] 011100 - 9 - 1,2[4] + 2,3[3] + 3,4[2] 100011 - 10 - 1,1[10] + 2,5[0] + 3,6[0] 100101 - 11 - 1,1[10] + 2,4[1] + 3,6[0] 100110 - 12 - 1,1[10] + 2,4[1] + 3,5[1] 101001 - 13 - 1,1[10] + 2,3[3] + 3,6[0] 101010 - 14 - 1,1[10] + 2,3[3] + 3,5[1] 101100 - 15 - 1,1[10] + 2,3[3] + 3,4[2] 110001 - 16 - 1,1[10] + 2,2[6] + 3,6[0] 110010 - 17 - 1,1[10] + 2,2[6] + 3,5[1] 110100 - 18 - 1,1[10] + 2,2[6] + 3,4[2] 111000 - 19 - 1,1[10] + 2,2[6] + 3,3[3] : 1 2 3 1: 10 x x 2: 4 6 x 3: 1 3 3 4: 0 1 2 5: x 0 1 6: x x 0

On 09/08/2016 09:33 PM, Cecilia Tanaka wrote:

On Sep 9, 2016 12:02 AM, "Mirimir" wrote:

...

On 09/08/2016 08:50 PM, Cypher Piggie wrote:

...

juan has no right abuse others....

He for sure does! But maybe not so repetitiously, like a fucking bot ;)

Mirimir, my dearest love, do you know what is a "feijoada"? :)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feijoada

Looks good :) Portuguese left interesting recipes in colonies. Vindaloo in Goa. Goans didn't have red wine for tomato sauce, so they made do with vinegar. Much more interesting than Mulligatawny soup that English spawned ;)

Please, don't waste time talking with the bacon and help me to make a good feijoada. A friend is helping, but he is pretty busy at work now.

This is also off-topic, of course :) But what distinguishes it is the humor and lightness, which encourages open participation. Not constant concern trolling and vituperation, which drives people away.

I regret deeply all the time that I've spent crying for my ex-boyfriend instead studying hardly to learn how to catch pigs. Cooking pork isn't vegan, but it will be very fun this time! Oink Oink! <3

Ah, I learned that "torresmo" exists in other countries! "Pork rind", haha!! :D

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torresmo

That is truly evil shit ;) I'd rather eat deep fried rice noodles.

On 09/08/2016 10:16 PM, Cecilia Tanaka wrote:

PS for everybody: - Hi! I am accepting anyone's help to catch the Piggie and make a good feijoada, with bacon and torresmo. And caipirinha to celebrate! :D

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caipirinha

Brazilian food and drinks are very Off Topic, but when we cook a Cypher Piggie, it becomes a cypherpunk topic, my dear Mirimir! :D

Ignoring trolls is the best policy.

sea sea -- "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

On Thu, 8 Sep 2016 20:58:16 -0600 Mirimir wrote:

On 09/08/2016 08:50 PM, Cypher Piggie wrote:

...

...

todefend to SOMEONE ELSE'S death his right to say it. Â <vbg>Â Â Â Â

juan has no right abuse others....

He for sure does! But maybe not so repetitiously, like a fucking bot ;)

I only 'abuse' people who advocate mass abuse. If I sound like a broken record it's because there are other broken records constantly promoting things like 'regulation', 'governments' 'fake anonimty networks', making excuses for the pentagon and big businesses, etc, etc, etc. Oh and there even are lunatics like cyber-swine here...

On Thu, 8 Sep 2016 22:27:36 -0600 Mirimir wrote:

On 09/08/2016 10:13 PM, juan wrote:

...

I only 'abuse' people who advocate mass abuse. If I sound like a broken record it's because there are other broken records constantly promoting things like 'regulation', 'governments' 'fake anonimty networks', making excuses for the pentagon and big businesses, etc, etc, etc.

You do raise many valid points. But the problem for me is that it's impossible to substantively discuss anything with you.

Oh, I know my patience is...somewhat...limited =P

Because, with few exceptions, you seem just so certain that you're right.

But is that a big problem? I assume the vast majority of people think they are right. Even you have made a few claims about political anarchy and quantum mechanics that you defended in a rather...incomplete way.

Given my background as a scientist and esthole,

That would beg the question, what is science? By science do you mean narrow technical questions that can be investigated by experiment? Well, in that case I wouldn't mind being more tolerant, open minded and polite. But that's not the kind of 'science' that's usually discussed in this list. The stuff discussed in this list, apart from computing stuff is mostly political and philosophical. So, when people come up with notions that are patently absurd, like, "obey google's terms of service", I tend to...abuse them. (I can't find esthole in the dictionary, I can't figure out what word you misspelt, if that's a misspelling, and I can't figure out the pun, if it is a pun... =/ )

I have little patience for that attitude.

So your patience is limite too =P

It's pointless, and I have more interesting things to do.

Well, you are not forced to disuss anything with me =P

...

Oh and there even are lunatics like cyber-swine here...

At least they keep it short, and sometimes even funny ;)

shutup juan your post is worthless

bringing the shit out in the open

you want to know in open what juan support in anonimouse forum...