comprehending the heart's nationalism
The following is a viewpoint worth comprehending, if not embracing. This could be described I guess as the higher intention of a "Russian". I consider it may be useful to contemplate ones own version of "principles" of honour, heart, heroism, worthy sacrifice and all those other concepts fit for legend and foundations. How else can we speak into existence a better future, no matter the label used? http://orientalreview.org/2016/06/19/the-russian-world-and-european-civiliza... (Alt: http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/how-russian-world-differs-ideals-weste... ) How the Russian World Differs From the Ideals of Western Civilization The Russian ideal is more benevolent, contrasting noticeably with the historical Western hankering to dominate, subdue and exploit Anna Zhdanova (Oriental Review) Image: A noble warrior Originally appeared at Oriental Review In recent years, both the Western as well as the liberal Russian press have had a lot to say about Russian “barbarianism,” as if to contrast it with European “civilization.” But a closer inspection – through the prism of the heroic pages of Russian history – of the two groups’ moral ideals and actual lives presents us with quite a different picture. For example, in pagan times, ancient Russians never worshipped a god of war, although their contemporaries in Europe were transfixed by their own martial deity, constructing an entire epic narrative around the concepts of war and conquest. After defeating the “infidels” (the Golden Horde), Russians never sought to forcibly convert them to Christianity. In the epic poem “Ilya Muromets and the Pagan Idol,” the Russian hero liberates Constantinople from that mythological monstrosity, but refuses to become the voevoda (or ruler) of the city and returns home. Ancient Russian literature does not include tales of personal enrichment through conquest or plunder, although this is a common theme in the Western canon. The hero of the “Nibelungenlied” is obsessed with his search for a hidden treasure – the Rheingold. The main character of the ancient English poem “Beowulf” dies, having beheld “the gorgeous heirlooms, golden store … Now I’ve bartered here for booty of treasure the last of my life.” It would never occur to any hero from a Russian epic to sacrifice his life in exchange for riches. Ilya Muromets is not even able to accept the inducement offered by the brigands he meets – the “golden treasure, richly colored robe, and as many fine horses as he needed” (citation from the Russian fairytale ( http://tchaykovsky.ru/skazka/murom_solov.htm ) “Ilya Muromets and Nightingale the Robber”). He did not hesitate to reject the path by which he would “be rich,” instead voluntarily taking the road on which he would “be killed.” And it is not only in this epic, but also in the legends, tales, songs, proverbs, and folk wisdom of the Russian people where it is evident that one’s duty to uphold one’s personal or tribal honor is something quite distinct from any duty to exact personal or tribal revenge. The notion of retaliation, as such, is absent from Russian folklore, as if it were never part of the original “genetic code” of its people – the Russian champion has always gone to war as a liberator. And in this we can see the difference between Russians and Western Europeans. The Russian historian and philosopher Ivan Ilyin ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Ilyin ) wrote: “Europe cannot grasp us … because the Slavic and Russian way of contemplating the world, nature, and man is something alien to it. Humanity in Western Europe is motivated by will and intellect. The Russian people are above all guided by their hearts and imaginations, relegating the mind and will to a supporting role. Therefore, the average European is ashamed of sincerity, scruples, and kindness, viewing them as “foolishness.” A European, nursed on the ideals of Rome, is secretly contemptuous of other nations and desires to rule over them. Russians, however, on the whole expect kindness, scruples, and sincerity from others. The Russian people have always enjoyed the natural freedom of the vast space they inhabit … gazing “in wonder” at other nations, getting along with them amiably, with hatred only for oppressive invaders … “ Russians’ congenial relationships with their geographic neighbors are testament to their sense of justice and mercy. The Russian people never committed the same atrocities for which the enlightened Europeans were responsible in their own conquered lands. The psychology of the nation includes a certain principle of moral restraint. These naturally strong, resilient, dynamic people have been endowed with an amazing ability to survive. This spiritual strength is also the basis for Russians’ renowned forbearance and tolerance toward others. Continually invaded from all sides and forced to live in an incredibly harsh climate, the Russian people managed to colonize vast swathes of land, but without slaughtering, enslaving, robbing, or forcibly baptizing any nation. Western Europeans’ policies of colonialism annihilated the aboriginal populations on three continents and forced natives from across Africa into slavery, while its cities grew rich on the backs of those colonies. The Russian nation, which also waged wars that were not purely defensive, acquired, like all great nations, large tracts of land, but never treated their conquered subjects as the Europeans did. The European people reaped the benefits of Europe’s conquests and its cities were enriched by the colonial plunder. Russians robbed neither Siberia nor Central Asia nor the Caucasus nor the Baltics. Russia has preserved every nation within its borders, acting as their protector, granting them the right to own land and property and to practice their own faith, traditions, and culture. Russia has never been a nationalist state – it has belonged to all who inhabit her. The Russian people were granted only one “advantage” – to bear the burden of nation-building. The resulting state was like no other in the history of the world, and the Russian people defended it with their own blood, willingly sacrificing their very lives. Precisely because they have borne so much suffering and heavy sacrifice, my people deeply empathized with the pain and suffering of other peoples languishing under the Nazi yoke. And after liberating their own homeland, Russians channeled that same spirit of self-sacrifice and energy into liberating half of Europe. This was an example of epic heroism! These are the stouthearted people born of the Russian earth! And I believe that such a feat can be accomplished even by a great nation only once a century. The patriotism displayed by Russian soldiers in the fields of the Great Patriotic War met the highest ideal of patriotism – something unprecedented in the history of any nation anywhere in the world. And I will never agree with the media’s pronouncements about Russian “barbarianism” vs. European “virtue.” I stand proud that our ancestors – our heroic ancestors – were so lovely, steadfast, courageous, and resilient, and that we are their descendants!
That's pretty damn good. Thanks. Although every nation, cult, gang, mafia has a similar rationale. At 07:41 AM 6/22/2016, you wrote:
The following is a viewpoint worth comprehending, if not embracing.
This could be described I guess as the higher intention of a "Russian".
I consider it may be useful to contemplate ones own version of "principles" of honour, heart, heroism, worthy sacrifice and all those other concepts fit for legend and foundations. How else can we speak into existence a better future, no matter the label used?
http://orientalreview.org/2016/06/19/the-russian-world-and-european-civiliza...
(Alt: http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/how-russian-world-differs-ideals-weste... )
How the Russian World Differs From the Ideals of Western Civilization
The Russian ideal is more benevolent, contrasting noticeably with the historical Western hankering to dominate, subdue and exploit Anna Zhdanova (Oriental Review)
Image: A noble warrior
Originally appeared at Oriental Review
In recent years, both the Western as well as the liberal Russian press have had a lot to say about Russian âbarbarianism,â as if to contrast it with European âcivilization.â But a closer inspection through the prism of the heroic pages of Russian history of the two groupsâ moral ideals and actual lives presents us with quite a different picture.
For example, in pagan times, ancient Russians never worshipped a god of war, although their contemporaries in Europe were transfixed by their own martial deity, constructing an entire epic narrative around the concepts of war and conquest.
After defeating the âinfidelsâ (the Golden Horde), Russians never sought to forcibly convert them to Christianity. In the epic poem âIlya Muromets and the Pagan Idol,â the Russian hero liberates Constantinople from that mythological monstrosity, but refuses to become the voevoda (or ruler) of the city and returns home. Ancient Russian literature does not include tales of personal enrichment through conquest or plunder, although this is a common theme in the Western canon.
The hero of the âNibelungenliedâ is obsessed with his search for a hidden treasure the Rheingold. The main character of the ancient English poem âBeowulfâ dies, having beheld âthe gorgeous heirlooms, golden store Now Iâve bartered here for booty of treasure the last of my life.â It would never occur to any hero from a Russian epic to sacrifice his life in exchange for riches. Ilya Muromets is not even able to accept the inducement offered by the brigands he meets the âgolden treasure, richly colored robe, and as many fine horses as he neededâ (citation from the Russian fairytale ( http://tchaykovsky.ru/skazka/murom_solov.htm ) âIlya Muromets and Nightingale the Robberâ). He did not hesitate to reject the path by which he would âbe rich,â instead voluntarily taking the road on which he would âbe killed.â
And it is not only in this epic, but also in the legends, tales, songs, proverbs, and folk wisdom of the Russian people where it is evident that oneâs duty to uphold oneâs personal or tribal honor is something quite distinct from any duty to exact personal or tribal revenge.
The notion of retaliation, as such, is absent from Russian folklore, as if it were never part of the original âgenetic codeâ of its people the Russian champion has always gone to war as a liberator. And in this we can see the difference between Russians and Western Europeans.
The Russian historian and philosopher Ivan Ilyin ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Ilyin ) wrote:
âEurope cannot grasp us because the Slavic and Russian way of contemplating the world, nature, and man is something alien to it. Humanity in Western Europe is motivated by will and intellect. The Russian people are above all guided by their hearts and imaginations, relegating the mind and will to a supporting role. Therefore, the average European is ashamed of sincerity, scruples, and kindness, viewing them as âfoolishness.â
A European, nursed on the ideals of Rome, is secretly contemptuous of other nations and desires to rule over them. Russians, however, on the whole expect kindness, scruples, and sincerity from others.
The Russian people have always enjoyed the natural freedom of the vast space they inhabit gazing âin wonderâ at other nations, getting along with them amiably, with hatred only for oppressive invaders â Russiansâ congenial relationships with their geographic neighbors are testament to their sense of justice and mercy. The Russian people never committed the same atrocities for which the enlightened Europeans were responsible in their own conquered lands.
The psychology of the nation includes a certain principle of moral restraint. These naturally strong, resilient, dynamic people have been endowed with an amazing ability to survive.
This spiritual strength is also the basis for Russiansâ renowned forbearance and tolerance toward others.
Continually invaded from all sides and forced to live in an incredibly harsh climate, the Russian people managed to colonize vast swathes of land, but without slaughtering, enslaving, robbing, or forcibly baptizing any nation.
Western Europeansâ policies of colonialism annihilated the aboriginal populations on three continents and forced natives from across Africa into slavery, while its cities grew rich on the backs of those colonies.
The Russian nation, which also waged wars that were not purely defensive, acquired, like all great nations, large tracts of land, but never treated their conquered subjects as the Europeans did. The European people reaped the benefits of Europeâs conquests and its cities were enriched by the colonial plunder.
Russians robbed neither Siberia nor Central Asia nor the Caucasus nor the Baltics. Russia has preserved every nation within its borders, acting as their protector, granting them the right to own land and property and to practice their own faith, traditions, and culture.
Russia has never been a nationalist state it has belonged to all who inhabit her. The Russian people were granted only one âadvantageâ to bear the burden of nation-building.
The resulting state was like no other in the history of the world, and the Russian people defended it with their own blood, willingly sacrificing their very lives.
Precisely because they have borne so much suffering and heavy sacrifice, my people deeply empathized with the pain and suffering of other peoples languishing under the Nazi yoke.
And after liberating their own homeland, Russians channeled that same spirit of self-sacrifice and energy into liberating half of Europe.
This was an example of epic heroism! These are the stouthearted people born of the Russian earth! And I believe that such a feat can be accomplished even by a great nation only once a century.
The patriotism displayed by Russian soldiers in the fields of the Great Patriotic War met the highest ideal of patriotism something unprecedented in the history of any nation anywhere in the world. And I will never agree with the mediaâs pronouncements about Russian âbarbarianismâ vs. European âvirtue.â
I stand proud that our ancestors our heroic ancestors were so lovely, , steadfast, courageous, and resilient, and that we are their descendants!
On Wed, Jun 22, 2016 at 09:20:01AM -0400, John Young wrote:
That's pretty damn good. Thanks.
Although every nation, cult, gang, mafia has a similar rationale.
Seems those truly selfless in their nationalism (/ anarchism/ or etc) ultimately cede the actual seats of power to others. And those others end up being less than selfless. It's a dichotomy just begging to be resolved, perhaps ever unresolvable? When the selfless in service, retire to their normal average life, the joys, loves and heartaches of family for example, and the seats of power then wielded by those who desire such, the cycle of tyranny once again begins. "Who wants to be involved in politics? I just want to live my creative/ productive life thank you very much!" How the mind craves answers... the spirit, higher purpose
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 06/22/2016 09:20 AM, John Young wrote:
That's pretty damn good. Thanks.
Although every nation, cult, gang, mafia has a similar rationale.
My take-away: "The notion of retaliation, as such, is absent from Russian folklore, as if it were never part of the original 'genetic code' of its people the Russian champion has always gone to war as a liberator." In regions where the climate tries to kill everyone for months on end every year, "common sense" social behavior and resulting cultural norms benefit from a massively iterated sorting process; those who are naturally inclined toward cooperation and a reasonable amount of self-sacrifice tend to outlive those who are not so inclined. Given enough time this sorting process will affect the physical genome as well as the implicit semantic content of "culture." Bad weather makes good neighbors. I have been saying this since I was a teenager, having by then lived in a range of locations from tropical to sub-arctic. Of course there are a lot of other variables. Civilization so-called is pure poison to the human spirit as well as the natural world it exploits, ruins and discards in the name of Progress. The pervasive propaganda narrative describing Western civilization as the ascent of Man from barbarous savagery to nobility and enlightenment may be the biggest Big Lie ever told. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJXas5VAAoJEECU6c5Xzmuq5WAH/AyXQg8fzpfiKDZirGmNfUxP fltEI2xiTDrRyiRJ3v10c97e0u9k/XMhytXFci0WyOzc+e+xIDSm0xlGtGVAojWs 03ShXj7/ms/ZriLMzX0DBlPUnbjU5xyJE5ObgKaSzZ4+DqneZGoW+JHuq7CfSfVY DIthHitcl9Z+nS6N6I04KC2gWN4M1UJ+UWmVkQjEhRw/xxya0mESaiuV4t9fFMTh +GJJFj/Npd7CFgOTSsxzTeJe4LnYmt+8yYG8J6Z2CNaVPwPM5ZDgvWsoOhtjg6/T oc0dMjK0i+v6fSpD1cYSEJ9n3vsoo+ZDZzcrG3ryZsgO/fRJ4NMP/y5HKtphRhs= =+1vm -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On Wed, 22 Jun 2016 21:41:23 +1000 Zenaan Harkness <zen@freedbms.net> wrote:
How the Russian World Differs From the Ideals of Western Civilization
Russia is ~100% western 'civilization' or culture. Ethnically, linguistically, religiously 'western'.
The Russian ideal is more benevolent, contrasting noticeably with the historical Western hankering to dominate, subdue and exploit
Well, you could argue that the russian empire was/is more limited than the british empire, but that's about it. Since russia is pretty much western, it shares all the western (or global) political vices. Have you noticed how russia went from feudal totalitarianism (tzarism) to commie totalitarianism, that is feudalism recycled? Also noticed how the russians adopted a piece of garbage like the marxist religion, a product 100% 'made in europe'? I do think that the anti russian propaganda coming from washington and their european vasal states and pets is both stupid and dangerous, but idealizing russia isn't too helpful either.
Anna Zhdanova (Oriental Review)
2016-06-22 19:15 GMT+03:00 juan <juan.g71@gmail.com>: Russia is ~100% western 'civilization' or culture.
Ethnically, linguistically, religiously 'western'.
You are wrong, my friend. Not religiously and not morally. Russia /ns is/are definitely not a western type in the real spiritual core of human beings. Russians are really different (not "special high race", but there is something really High and Great in this nation. In the soul of Russian people).
I do think that the anti russian propaganda coming from washington and their european vasal states and pets is both stupid and dangerous, but idealizing russia isn't too helpful either.
Juan, my friend.... i understand your point, but the problem is... that you miss something else... you miss the "why is Zen such a great fun of Russia/ns/ of this "russkost" thing". it's difficult to express in words... one should feel it... it's the Russian real-core DIFFERENCE from other nations, especially from the Western nations... it's Russians HEARTS. Their SPIRITS. Their high standards of MORALITY and HEROISM. It's Russians attitude to Good and Evil...Their humane attitude to other nations.... I don't know how to express it, partly it's written in this article. It's not idealizing the Russians, but something else (i'm not writing it because i myself is a Russian, believe me).
On Wed, Jun 22, 2016 at 01:15:04PM -0300, juan wrote:
Since russia is pretty much western, it shares all the western (or global) political vices.
Have you noticed how russia went from feudal totalitarianism (tzarism) to commie totalitarianism, that is feudalism recycled? Also noticed how the russians adopted a piece of garbage like the marxist religion, a product 100% 'made in europe'?
I do think that the anti russian propaganda coming from washington and their european vasal states and pets is both stupid and dangerous, but idealizing russia isn't too helpful either.
I agree. And, honestly, there is propaganda coming from both sides, from all sides. Russia has paid troll farms pumping out pro-Kremlin crap, the US has ridiculous propaganda films like 'American Sniper', etc, etc.. there's so much bullshit flying around sometimes all you can see is brown. -- John
On 6/30/16 5:13 AM, John Newman wrote:
On Wed, Jun 22, 2016 at 01:15:04PM -0300, juan wrote:
Since russia is pretty much western, it shares all the western (or global) political vices.
Have you noticed how russia went from feudal totalitarianism (tzarism) to commie totalitarianism, that is feudalism recycled? Also noticed how the russians adopted a piece of garbage like the marxist religion, a product 100% 'made in europe'?
I do think that the anti russian propaganda coming from washington and their european vasal states and pets is both stupid and dangerous, but idealizing russia isn't too helpful either. I agree. And, honestly, there is propaganda coming from both sides, from all sides. Russia has paid troll farms pumping out pro-Kremlin crap, the US has ridiculous propaganda films like 'American Sniper', etc, etc.. there's so much bullshit flying around sometimes all you can see is brown.
The world has a long memory; true propaganda, distorting or outright lying about the actual facts, is going to be quite apparent later. It's fine for Russia to be proud of themselves, but it seems like they have been embarrassing themselves frequently. In the unlikely event that we elect Trump, we might return the favor for a while. But everyone would see through it and know it would stop in 4 years, so it would likely be more humorous than anything. The US is too open and too self-examining in public for much false propaganda to get very far for long. I'm not sure that American Sniper is propaganda, even unintentionally. Seems mostly like highlighting the sad situations people have allowed to happen. Perhaps in the Strongest Tribe sense it has some weight, but snipers are a narrow, special breed. I would think that the magical hand of God like drone war would have more weight. The effect depends on what those people are thinking: Do they realize that they can never win in any serious sense? Do they care or are they fine with just proving a point? The US almost completely holds back on propaganda / education in the world, maybe for fear of or a general policy against being seen to be promulgating propaganda. In most cases, where media and news and the Internet flow openly, it isn't really needed. However, when hardly anyone in Afghanistan knows anything at all about 9/11 or similar, that is a failure of the world to provide even basic knowledge to everyone. Separate from that, just understanding how a modern culture works, whether the US or Europe or any other high-functioning society, would be an important thing for some seriously problematic masses of people to know. I don't care who causes effective education to bring these people up to date with understanding modern cultures, but it needs to happen. In the absence of some other paths, it would seem like an important strategy for both US State and Defense, but I don't see it happening much. The US has no need to try to make people like it; that should not generally be a goal. But the world, especially including the capable Western world, both governments and populations, has a responsibility to educate those with abject ignorance, poverty, and knowing nothing but conflict that there are better ways of being, limitless opportunities, and that they could effectively work to modernize and become effective societies and cultures. We need something similar to 'genocide' to identify pathological ignorance, recognize that it leads to the ruin of many lives, and determine how to take action to stop it. There is no need for each culture to be exactly like the West or a particular form of government, but they should understand the options, understand how things can work effectively and why, and be able to incorporate elements in a local way to eventually make it work. We need to decide how hands off we should be in allowing large areas to fumble about without making progress and even regress. The prime directive should only apply to societies that are functioning to a reasonable degree. An interesting question is whether and how poisoned thinking, i.e. bad memes, are shared, instilled, and propagated to eventually create terrorists and criminals: What should we do to prevent spreading poisonous ideas? Should we be rooting out bad imams, literature, religious leaders? Ideally, our values and culture is an effective answer to these sources, but, just like in the biological world, eventually a successful defense will occur. If you've read The Selfish Gene, you know that truth, rightness, or goodness are not the goals of particular genes or memes (ideas). The only thing that determines success is successful competition and replication. Our Western ideas can successfully compete and replicate against these bad meme sets, but only if they are present. We seem to be in a situation where some of our allies are supporting the teaching of memes that are directly opposed to modern knowledge, including social and political knowledge. What should we do about that? All of this is crosscutting to security, encryption, communication, publishing, and surveillance. Distrust is healthy, and sometimes prudent. And, if we fail totally as a modern society, we may need it to maintain a modern underground in our new dark ages. In addition to safe commerce and social connection, and balancing government and keeping it healthy, we should even better organize and extend the ways that we help enlighten the ignorant while combating meme cancer. I imagine that soon we'll have universally available Internet (LEOs for instance), ultra-inexpensive devices (smart phones are down to $50 or less now), and organized, complete, and effective educational material that is somehow available, safe, and effective for everyone. There should be some kind of support systems of various kinds, to the extent possible. We are failing for not working toward these kind of things effectively enough. sdw
On Thu, 30 Jun 2016 12:33:22 -0700 "Stephen D. Williams" <sdw@lig.net> wrote:
In the unlikely event that we elect Trump,
He is unlikely to be elected because he's marginally better than that murderours cunt, your boss hitlery.
The US is too open and too self-examining in public for much false propaganda to get very far for long.
Of course. The only propaganda that the US tolerates is 'true' propaganda.
I'm not sure that American Sniper is propaganda,
Of course not. It's not propaganda! It's jew-kristian art.
The US almost completely holds back on propaganda
Right. The US psycho-leaders and all their sheep don't even know what 'propaganda' means. They've never seen any, let alone produced it.
However, when hardly anyone in Afghanistan knows anything at all about 9/11 or similar,
That's interesting. So you know exactly what the population of afghanistan (let's assume 25 million) knows? How did you manage that one? You must have a high ranking position in the americunt 'national security' 'industry' eh. And you speak a few varieties of persian I assume?
that is a failure of the world to provide even basic knowledge to everyone.
And now you sound flatly crazy. The 'world' is supposed to provide knowledge? What, you think "world" means "fascist public indoctrination system"? At any rate, I'd bet a couple of cents that people in afhanistan know about your 9/11 false flag attack.
it would seem like an important strategy for both US State and Defense, but I don't see it happening much.
So we have a piece of neocunt shit making world domination plans in the cpunks mailing list. How cute is that? Anyway, enough time wasted.
The US has no need to try to make people like it; that should not generally be a goal. But the world, especially including the capable Western world, both governments and populations, has a responsibility to educate those with abject ignorance, poverty, and knowing nothing but conflict that there are better ways of being, limitless opportunities, and that they could effectively work to modernize and become effective societies and cultures. We need something similar to 'genocide' to identify pathological ignorance, recognize that it leads to the ruin of many lives, and determine how to take action to stop it. There is no need for each culture to be exactly like the West or a particular form of government, but they should understand the options, understand how things can work effectively and why, and be able to incorporate elements in a local way to eventually make it work. We need to decide how hands off we should be in allowing large areas to fumble about without making progress and even regress. The prime directive should only apply to societies that are functioning to a reasonable degree.
An interesting question is whether and how poisoned thinking, i.e. bad memes, are shared, instilled, and propagated to eventually create terrorists and criminals: What should we do to prevent spreading poisonous ideas? Should we be rooting out bad imams, literature, religious leaders? Ideally, our values and culture is an effective answer to these sources, but, just like in the biological world, eventually a successful defense will occur. If you've read The Selfish Gene, you know that truth, rightness, or goodness are not the goals of particular genes or memes (ideas). The only thing that determines success is successful competition and replication. Our Western ideas can successfully compete and replicate against these bad meme sets, but only if they are present. We seem to be in a situation where some of our allies are supporting the teaching of memes that are directly opposed to modern knowledge, including social and political knowledge. What should we do about that?
All of this is crosscutting to security, encryption, communication, publishing, and surveillance. Distrust is healthy, and sometimes prudent. And, if we fail totally as a modern society, we may need it to maintain a modern underground in our new dark ages. In addition to safe commerce and social connection, and balancing government and keeping it healthy, we should even better organize and extend the ways that we help enlighten the ignorant while combating meme cancer.
I imagine that soon we'll have universally available Internet (LEOs for instance), ultra-inexpensive devices (smart phones are down to $50 or less now), and organized, complete, and effective educational material that is somehow available, safe, and effective for everyone. There should be some kind of support systems of various kinds, to the extent possible. We are failing for not working toward these kind of things effectively enough.
sdw
On 6/30/16 1:10 PM, juan wrote:
On Thu, 30 Jun 2016 12:33:22 -0700 "Stephen D. Williams" <sdw@lig.net> wrote:
In the unlikely event that we elect Trump, He is unlikely to be elected because he's marginally better than that murderours cunt, your boss hitlery.
Not sure why a sexist slur makes any difference. Murderous? Are all US leaders, in general, murderous because the US (and others) feels it has to act as world policeman in generally impossible to finesse circumstances? Are policemen "murderous" because some of them are? What is your measure for 'murderous' here? At what point is self-defense not murderous? Do you think it is unfair for the US to have an asymmetric advantage? What does the presence of several orders of magnitude of better technological sophistication say about any particular pairing of cultures? The US never wants to fight. The goal is always to buy and sell things, share ideas, and party. Ignorant idiots who imagine that they will pick a fight and somehow 'win' without first building a more effective culture are sadly clueless.
The US is too open and too self-examining in public for much false propaganda to get very far for long. Of course. The only propaganda that the US tolerates is 'true' propaganda.
Feel free to point out the propaganda. There certainly have been untrue or weak statements made by certain politicians and officials, and usually are followed up quickly by public dissection and correction by the US and other media and others. Perhaps in the very short term, this is sometimes propaganda, but usually it seems more like mistakes / wrong guesses / inferences, self-delusion, and, once in a while, ruses. Even secret things often eventually get out; by US law, most secret things have to be disclosed after some period of time. But feel free to highlight, specifically, all of the propaganda that you are assailed with.
I'm not sure that American Sniper is propaganda, Of course not. It's not propaganda! It's jew-kristian art.
If you say so. Seems like a character study to me, sad all around.
The US almost completely holds back on propaganda Right. The US psycho-leaders and all their sheep don't even know what 'propaganda' means. They've never seen any, let alone produced it.
Examples? References?
However, when hardly anyone in Afghanistan knows anything at all about 9/11 or similar,
That's interesting. So you know exactly what the population of afghanistan (let's assume 25 million) knows?
Research much? http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2011/09/11/in-rural-afghanistan-many-don%E2%80%99t...
Last year, when 1,000 men in the southern Helmand and Kandahar provinces were read a three-paragraph description of the attacks, only 8 percent said they knew about them, according to a survey by the International Council on Security and Development think tank <http://www.icosgroup.net/static/reports/afghanistan_transition_missing_variables.pdf>. The finding suggested a vast majority of men in those provinces *-* a major area of conflict between coalition forces and the Taliban *-* didn’t know about the event that precipitated the invasion of their country.
Journalist Adam Pletts went to see for himself. While on patrol with U.S. Marines in Helmand province recently, he showed pictures of the burning World Trade Center towers to Afghan men. In encounter after encounter, villagers and Afghan policemen said they didn’t know about 9/11.
“We don’t know, sir, because we’re farmers. We never heard anything else about the world,” one said, according to a translator with Pletts.
When Pletts showed pictures to several elders in one village, an elder said he thought the city in the picture was Kabul, Afghanistan’s capital.
“(He) clearly had never been to Kabul. Just shows you how isolated they are, even in their own country,” Marine Capt. Zachary Shore said.
The attacks, or at least parts of them, aren’t a mystery to everyone in Helmand and Kandahar. In the 2010 ICSD survey, 68 percent in those provinces said they did recognize pictures of the burning twin towers, even if most of them didn't recognize the three-paragraph description. The Wall Street Journal <http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111904103404576556531604340742.html> noted that the events of 9/11 “are known to educated Afghans, and to many residents of big cities,” and described interviews at Kabul University where “students said... they were fully aware of the September 11 attacks.”
But Shore isn’t surprised by the number of rural Afghans who apparently aren’t aware of the event that prompted the United States to attack the Taliban, which was harboring the al Qaeda terror movement. “If I’d just got here, I would have been surprised, but having been here now for six months, I’m not,” the Marine said. “This is pretty much the stone ages, where we are.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ka-ImUVvXWM http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424053111904103404576556531604340742 http://www.rferl.org/content/what_afghans_know_about_911/24318456.html
How did you manage that one? You must have a high ranking position in the americunt 'national security' 'industry' eh. And you speak a few varieties of persian I assume?
We call it 'free press' and 'investigative journalism'. Sure, there is a little bias in what they decide to investigate. But any untruths would be quickly countered by another news organization somewhere in the Western world. Or RT, which doesn't seem half bad except for certain Russian-interest reporting.
that is a failure of the world to provide even basic knowledge to everyone. And now you sound flatly crazy. The 'world' is supposed to provide knowledge? What, you think "world" means "fascist public indoctrination system"?
Basic humanist principles. If you think that allowing people to suffer and die in ignorance, from disease, starvation, and stone age practices, is the only way to avoid fascism, then your argument is pretty weak. What is fascist about educating people about science, sociology, psychology, etc.?
At any rate, I'd bet a couple of cents that people in afhanistan know about your 9/11 false flag attack.
See above. You have to be very uninformed and impressionable to believe it was a false flag attack.
it would seem like an important strategy for both US State and Defense, but I don't see it happening much.
So we have a piece of neocunt shit making world domination plans in the cpunks mailing list. How cute is that?
The US and the Western world have been dominating the world in the cultural / technological / defense senses for a long, long time. Usually, they studiously try to avoid direct domination now by enlightened choice. To a large extent, the US doesn't want or need to dominate the world except for security purposes. Everyone sane wants people everywhere to have better lives in every sense. A few of those people think that expanding religion is the answer; I'm completely opposed to that in all forms. Most think that better secular knowledge and training would produce a much better life, regardless of starting point. Unfortunately, minimizing knowledge is a key component is a key part of the survival meme set of many religions. The truly educated tend to graduate from religion. If you were to choose 1000, and maybe even only 100 competent individuals with a good range of knowledge and skill from the US or a number of Western countries, and placed them in a village anywhere in the world, absent fundamentalist warfare, they would start a growing evolution / revolution within a generation. The differences between societies aren't geographic, genetic, or magic: poorly educated people with broken culture will fail anywhere while the opposite is generally true. Nationalist fighting as if it were equivalent sports teams or family feud squabbles with no right or wrong just obscures the real issues. That tends to hurt everyone not in the US and EU; on average, it hardly affects our lives. For me, Russia is a Western country in this sense. Metropolitan China, Japan, and India are too. So, First World really, but most of those are converging on Western values where it counts.
Anyway, enough time wasted.
Yes, it seems you have been wasting your time.
The US has no need to try to make people like it; that should not generally be a goal. But the world, especially including the capable Western world, both governments and populations, has a responsibility to educate those with abject ignorance, poverty, and knowing nothing but conflict that there are better ways of being, limitless opportunities, and that they could effectively work to modernize and become effective societies and cultures. We need something similar to 'genocide' to identify pathological ignorance, recognize that it leads to the ruin of many lives, and determine how to take action to stop it. There is no need for each culture to be exactly like the West or a particular form of government, but they should understand the options, understand how things can work effectively and why, and be able to incorporate elements in a local way to eventually make it work. We need to decide how hands off we should be in allowing large areas to fumble about without making progress and even regress. The prime directive should only apply to societies that are functioning to a reasonable degree.
An interesting question is whether and how poisoned thinking, i.e. bad memes, are shared, instilled, and propagated to eventually create terrorists and criminals: What should we do to prevent spreading poisonous ideas? Should we be rooting out bad imams, literature, religious leaders? Ideally, our values and culture is an effective answer to these sources, but, just like in the biological world, eventually a successful defense will occur. If you've read The Selfish Gene, you know that truth, rightness, or goodness are not the goals of particular genes or memes (ideas). The only thing that determines success is successful competition and replication. Our Western ideas can successfully compete and replicate against these bad meme sets, but only if they are present. We seem to be in a situation where some of our allies are supporting the teaching of memes that are directly opposed to modern knowledge, including social and political knowledge. What should we do about that?
All of this is crosscutting to security, encryption, communication, publishing, and surveillance. Distrust is healthy, and sometimes prudent. And, if we fail totally as a modern society, we may need it to maintain a modern underground in our new dark ages. In addition to safe commerce and social connection, and balancing government and keeping it healthy, we should even better organize and extend the ways that we help enlighten the ignorant while combating meme cancer.
I imagine that soon we'll have universally available Internet (LEOs for instance), ultra-inexpensive devices (smart phones are down to $50 or less now), and organized, complete, and effective educational material that is somehow available, safe, and effective for everyone. There should be some kind of support systems of various kinds, to the extent possible. We are failing for not working toward these kind of things effectively enough.
sdw
sdw
On Wed, 6 Jul 2016 12:27:03 -0700 "Stephen D. Williams" <sdw@lig.net> wrote:
On 6/30/16 1:10 PM, juan wrote:
On Thu, 30 Jun 2016 12:33:22 -0700 "Stephen D. Williams" <sdw@lig.net> wrote:
In the unlikely event that we elect Trump, He is unlikely to be elected because he's marginally better than that murderours cunt, your boss hitlery.
Not sure why a sexist slur makes any difference.
"sexist"? The fuck are you taling about? Oh wait. I guess that pandering to feminazi cunts is your way to try to get laid? Sad.
Murderous? Are all US leaders, in general, murderous
Of course. Now tell me Stephen, what does an establishment bot like you do in an allegedly crypto ANARCHIST mailing list? I can counter your sick garbage/propaganda, but I'm curious why you post it here...?
On 7/6/16 12:51 PM, juan wrote:
On Wed, 6 Jul 2016 12:27:03 -0700 "Stephen D. Williams" <sdw@lig.net> wrote:
On Thu, 30 Jun 2016 12:33:22 -0700 "Stephen D. Williams" <sdw@lig.net> wrote:
In the unlikely event that we elect Trump, He is unlikely to be elected because he's marginally better than that murderours cunt, your boss hitlery. Not sure why a sexist slur makes any difference. "sexist"? The fuck are you taling about? Oh wait. I guess that
On 6/30/16 1:10 PM, juan wrote: pandering to feminazi cunts is your way to try to get laid? Sad.
Perhaps you were using the UK definition of 'cunt', although that usage is, I think, often as an endearment, much like 'bastard' or 'dude' in the US. In some locales, it's almost always used in a sexist sense. Anyway, your stooping to ad hominem attacks means you've already lost the argument. I was on BBSs in 1982, Compuserve in 1984, UUCP/Usenet in 1987 (a couple hops from uvax), running a server on the Internet continuously since 1992, setting up a couple ISPs including a satellite link in the early 90's, on AOL in 1995 (I wrote BuddyList for AOL.), and various other things. Calling me names on the Internet is not going to phase me.
Murderous? Are all US leaders, in general, murderous
Of course.
Well, no wonder. So, if you were President of the US, what would you do differently? How would that work better?
Now tell me Stephen, what does an establishment bot like you do in an allegedly crypto ANARCHIST mailing list?
Define 'anarchist' and 'crypto-anarchist', think a little, and you may find some answers. Let's go with the Wikipedia definition:
Crypto-anarchists employ cryptographic <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptography>software to evade prosecution and harassment while sending and receiving information over computer networks <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_network>, in an effort to protect their privacy <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Privacy> and political freedom <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_%28political%29>.
From that, you can derive a number of reasons to support and/or be aware of and/or use the techniques from cypherpunks. For instance, you could look at the US as being largely based on free-speech-anarchism, as per the First Amendment. Based on that, and perhaps borrowing from the Second, Fourth Amendments and other sources, you could easily justify an effort like cypherpunks. In the 90's, Cypherpunks, individually and as a whole, were super important to avoid things going the wrong way in the US. It was important for clear-headed arguments to be made, legal and other challenges mounted in just the right way, and education and code spread widely and evolved quickly. Paranoid babble would not have helped, and is still not helping. Understanding the "establishment" doesn't mean being "their" bot. Your lack of understanding and/or irrational distrust doesn't make you an anarchist; it shows your ignorance. "You don't know your own argument unless you know your opponent's." - anon (I think.) You can't even understand who your opponent is unless you understand all sides as much as possible.
I can counter your sick garbage/propaganda, but I'm curious why you post it here...?
Quite a weak and lazy response; you obviously have nothing but bluster. If you can't back up your statements with evidence, you aren't really saying anything useful. Plonk. I think I've probably been "here" much longer than you have. I was learning and participating since fairly early, and continuously for quite a few years. For instance: http://cypherpunks.venona.com/date/1995/02/msg00141.html sdw
On Wed, 6 Jul 2016 18:51:03 -0700 "Stephen D. Williams" <sdw@lig.net> wrote:
On 7/6/16 12:51 PM, juan wrote:
On Wed, 6 Jul 2016 12:27:03 -0700 "Stephen D. Williams" <sdw@lig.net> wrote:
On Thu, 30 Jun 2016 12:33:22 -0700 "Stephen D. Williams" <sdw@lig.net> wrote:
In the unlikely event that we elect Trump, He is unlikely to be elected because he's marginally better than that murderours cunt, your boss hitlery. Not sure why a sexist slur makes any difference. "sexist"? The fuck are you taling about? Oh wait. I guess
On 6/30/16 1:10 PM, juan wrote: that pandering to feminazi cunts is your way to try to get laid? Sad.
Perhaps you were using the UK definition of 'cunt', although that usage is, I think, often as an endearment, much like 'bastard' or 'dude' in the US. In some locales, it's almost always used in a sexist sense. Anyway, your stooping to ad hominem attacks means you've already lost the argument.
What argument? There's isn't any argument on sight, on your part at least. By-the-way : http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=cunt "1) A person so vile as to be without any redeeming feature." "2) stupid/contemptible person of either gender " "Only in America is this considered a specifically misogynistic insult " Another reason to use it against ameriCUNTS - so that they reveal themselves as lunatic, 'politically correct' puritans from the anti-sex league. Sexism!! What a terrible horrible crime against humanity!!! SOMEBODY PLEASE CALL HOMELAND SECURITY!!!!
I was on BBSs in 1982,
Congrats? And I give a damn, why?
Calling me names on the Internet is not going to phase me.
I'm just being descriptive ;)
Murderous? Are all US leaders, in general, murderous
Of course.
Well, no wonder. So, if you were President of the US,
Sorry, your question is absurd. I, unlike you, happen to be in a crypto anarchist mailing list because I subscribe to the anarchist political philosophy. I hope you can get the correct conclusion from that premise, regarding me being 'president' of anything.
what would you do differently? How would that work better?
Now tell me Stephen, what does an establishment bot like you do in an allegedly crypto ANARCHIST mailing list?
Define 'anarchist'
Dude, if you don't know the ABC of political philosophy, which you obviously don't, that's not my problem. Wikipedia? LMAO. Didn't your wikipedia article explain to you why government officials are 'murderous'? Tsk tsk. Looks like you can't answer the question. Why would a left wing fascist, sympathetic to that sick, murderous CUNT clinton, bother with crypto ANARCHISM? Second try. Try to do better this time.
For instance, you could look at the US as being largely based on free-speech-anarchism,
If I were ignorant and dishonest, I could do that.
as per the First Amendment.
Ahhhh! Laughable statist documents now are the pilars of crypto anarchism? Amazing.
In the 90's, Cypherpunks, individually and as a whole, were super important to avoid things going the wrong way in the US.
Sure. And they were oh so successful. Chuckle. Thanks to their plans the US government has been finally overthrown and/or made obsolete! Good work!
Understanding the "establishment" doesn't mean being "their" bot.
Right. I for instance understand the establishment, including its bots, like yourself. You on the other hand just repeat establishment cliches =) Trump bad! Now, the other 'choice'...
I can counter your sick garbage/propaganda, but I'm curious why you post it here...?
Quite a weak and lazy response;
Right, lazy. I admit I have zero interest in wasting time explaining the ABC to somebody who's obviously...an establishment bot.
you obviously have nothing but bluster. If you can't back up your statements with evidence, you aren't really saying anything useful. Plonk.
Evidence like your comment about trump....and virtually all the rest of what you said?
I think I've probably been "here" much longer than you have.
Yep, I've bothered to check the archives and saw your name (I also read some interesting stuff from other people...) And so I know that after 20 years you seem have learned nothing and actually became even more of a 'moderate' (i.e. american fascist) No wonder the americunt, electronic, global police state is just about to launch its 2.0 version. With opposition like you they surely need no advertising agencies...
I was learning and participating since fairly early, and continuously for quite a few years. For instance:
http://cypherpunks.venona.com/date/1995/02/msg00141.html
sdw
On Wed, Jul 06, 2016 at 06:51:03PM -0700, Stephen D. Williams wrote:
On 7/6/16 12:51 PM, juan wrote:
On Wed, 6 Jul 2016 12:27:03 -0700 "Stephen D. Williams" <sdw@lig.net> wrote:
Murderous? Are all US leaders, in general, murderous
Of course.
Well, no wonder. So, if you were President of the US, what would you do differently? How would that work better?
There was someone on this list wanting an example of American propaganda. Not sure who that was, don't think it was a real person, but above is an example, fwiw. <Attenborough voice> Here we have an example of a rather sad and lonely species, the Americ0nt. </>
On Wed, Jul 06, 2016 at 12:27:03PM -0700, Stephen D. Williams wrote:
The US never wants to fight. The goal is always to buy and sell things, share ideas, and party. Ignorant idiots who imagine that they will pick a fight and somehow 'win' without first building a more effective culture are sadly clueless.
You must be American. I feel for you. There's this thing called Wikipedia around ... if you haven't got the time, I suggest saying less.
The US is too open and too self-examining in public for much false propaganda to get very far for long. Of course. The only propaganda that the US tolerates is 'true' propaganda.
Feel free to point out the propaganda.
Check out the CIA "list of government coups" or whatever it's called - been posted a few times on this list. I don't know what you're saying, but you're either incoherent or presuming your own position "unless disproved". That's not how logic works, that's just lazy abuse of weak readers/listeners. /Stephen D. Williams;killfiled
2016-06-30 22:33 GMT+03:00 Stephen D. Williams <sdw@lig.net>:
The world has a long memory; true propaganda, distorting or outright lying about the actual facts, is going to be quite apparent later. It's fine for Russia to be proud of themselves, but it seems like they have been embarrassing themselves frequently. In the unlikely event that we elect Trump, we might return the favor for a while. But everyone would see through it and know it would stop in 4 years, so it would likely be more humorous than anything. The US is too open and too self-examining in public for much false propaganda to get very far for long.
I'm not sure that American Sniper is propaganda, even unintentionally. Seems mostly like highlighting the sad situations people have allowed to happen. Perhaps in the Strongest Tribe sense it has some weight, but snipers are a narrow, special breed. I would think that the magical hand of God like drone war would have more weight. The effect depends on what those people are thinking: Do they realize that they can never win in any serious sense? Do they care or are they fine with just proving a point?
The US almost completely holds back on propaganda / education in the world, maybe for fear of or a general policy against being seen to be promulgating propaganda. In most cases, where media and news and the Internet flow openly, it isn't really needed. However, when hardly anyone in Afghanistan knows anything at all about 9/11 or similar, that is a failure of the world to provide even basic knowledge to everyone. Separate from that, just understanding how a modern culture works, whether the US or Europe or any other high-functioning society, would be an important thing for some seriously problematic masses of people to know. I don't care who causes effective education to bring these people up to date with understanding modern cultures, but it needs to happen. In the absence of some other paths, it would seem like an important strategy for both US State and Defense, but I don't see it happening much.
The US has no need to try to make people like it; that should not generally be a goal. But the world, especially including the capable Western world, both governments and populations, has a responsibility to educate those with abject ignorance, poverty, and knowing nothing but conflict that there are better ways of being, limitless opportunities, and that they could effectively work to modernize and become effective societies and cultures. We need something similar to 'genocide' to identify pathological ignorance, recognize that it leads to the ruin of many lives, and determine how to take action to stop it. There is no need for each culture to be exactly like the West or a particular form of government, but they should understand the options, understand how things can work effectively and why, and be able to incorporate elements in a local way to eventually make it work. We need to decide how hands off we should be in allowing large areas to fumble about without making progress and even regress. The prime directive should only apply to societies that are functioning to a reasonable degree.
An interesting question is whether and how poisoned thinking, i.e. bad memes, are shared, instilled, and propagated to eventually create terrorists and criminals: What should we do to prevent spreading poisonous ideas? Should we be rooting out bad imams, literature, religious leaders? Ideally, our values and culture is an effective answer to these sources, but, just like in the biological world, eventually a successful defense will occur. If you've read The Selfish Gene, you know that truth, rightness, or goodness are not the goals of particular genes or memes (ideas). The only thing that determines success is successful competition and replication. Our Western ideas can successfully compete and replicate against these bad meme sets, but only if they are present. We seem to be in a situation where some of our allies are supporting the teaching of memes that are directly opposed to modern knowledge, including social and political knowledge. What should we do about that?
All of this is crosscutting to security, encryption, communication, publishing, and surveillance. Distrust is healthy, and sometimes prudent. And, if we fail totally as a modern society, we may need it to maintain a modern underground in our new dark ages. In addition to safe commerce and social connection, and balancing government and keeping it healthy, we should even better organize and extend the ways that we help enlighten the ignorant while combating meme cancer.
I imagine that soon we'll have universally available Internet (LEOs for instance), ultra-inexpensive devices (smart phones are down to $50 or less now), and organized, complete, and effective educational material that is somehow available, safe, and effective for everyone. There should be some kind of support systems of various kinds, to the extent possible. We are failing for not working toward these kind of things effectively enough.
In this loooong comment, i see so many lies and propaganda... so many delusions and contradictions (some of them Juan has commented), so many psychological techniques that mislead the direction of the discussed subject/s.... that it seems like *a big fucken ameriCunt SARCASM*, when someone claims, among other false things, that there is no propaganda in/from the us, providing a billion tons of cheap US propaganda by himself.
_<
On 06/30/2016 10:51 PM, Александр wrote:
2016-06-30 22:33 GMT+03:00 Stephen D. Williams <sdw@lig.net>:
<SNIP>
In this loooong comment, i see so many lies and propaganda... so many delusions and contradictions (some of them Juan has commented), so many psychological techniques that mislead the direction of the discussed subject/s.... that it seems like *a big fucken ameriCunt SARCASM*, when someone claims, among other false things, that there is no propaganda in/from the us, providing a billion tons of cheap US propaganda by himself.
I totally agree, Александр. I could barely stand to read it all. But I don't trust what the Russian government says, either. Russian people, however, I love. Especially the anarchists :)
Hi,
Александр: propaganda
Art is propaganda. Everything is art. Some propaganda [has images]: http://www.crestock.com/blog/design/propaganda-design-aesthetics-soviet-retr... http://www.crestock.com/blog/design/the-evolution-of-propaganda-design-us-re... Wordlife, Spencer
On 7/1/16 12:41 AM, Spencer wrote:
Hi,
Александр: propaganda
Art is propaganda. Everything is art.
Some propaganda [has images]:
http://www.crestock.com/blog/design/propaganda-design-aesthetics-soviet-retr...
http://www.crestock.com/blog/design/the-evolution-of-propaganda-design-us-re... Nice. Note: *1955:* With the end of World War II, the US government stepped down the production of propaganda posters. Propaganda directed towards the new enemy, the Soviet Union, seems to have shifted more towards television, and away from printed posters. At least, I haven't really been able to find any "official" anti-communist posters from the period.
Wordlife, Spencer
sdw
Whether this is objectively true or not, what good comes out of this nationalistic manner? Every nation on earth tend to see their cultural qualities, superior to other nations. This may look naive at a first glance, but it leads to chauvinism and rivalry. I used to think the best thing about russian culture (not that i know it very well) was that it managed to beat the nationalism and elitism at least once in its history, leading to internationalist practices. Now you counteract it... On Jun 22, 2016 2:49 PM, "Zenaan Harkness" <zen@freedbms.net> wrote:
The following is a viewpoint worth comprehending, if not embracing.
This could be described I guess as the higher intention of a "Russian".
I consider it may be useful to contemplate ones own version of "principles" of honour, heart, heroism, worthy sacrifice and all those other concepts fit for legend and foundations. How else can we speak into existence a better future, no matter the label used?
http://orientalreview.org/2016/06/19/the-russian-world-and-european-civiliza...
(Alt:
http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/how-russian-world-differs-ideals-weste... )
How the Russian World Differs From the Ideals of Western Civilization
The Russian ideal is more benevolent, contrasting noticeably with the historical Western hankering to dominate, subdue and exploit Anna Zhdanova (Oriental Review)
Image: A noble warrior
Originally appeared at Oriental Review
In recent years, both the Western as well as the liberal Russian press have had a lot to say about Russian “barbarianism,” as if to contrast it with European “civilization.” But a closer inspection – through the prism of the heroic pages of Russian history – of the two groups’ moral ideals and actual lives presents us with quite a different picture.
For example, in pagan times, ancient Russians never worshipped a god of war, although their contemporaries in Europe were transfixed by their own martial deity, constructing an entire epic narrative around the concepts of war and conquest.
After defeating the “infidels” (the Golden Horde), Russians never sought to forcibly convert them to Christianity. In the epic poem “Ilya Muromets and the Pagan Idol,” the Russian hero liberates Constantinople from that mythological monstrosity, but refuses to become the voevoda (or ruler) of the city and returns home. Ancient Russian literature does not include tales of personal enrichment through conquest or plunder, although this is a common theme in the Western canon.
The hero of the “Nibelungenlied” is obsessed with his search for a hidden treasure – the Rheingold. The main character of the ancient English poem “Beowulf” dies, having beheld “the gorgeous heirlooms, golden store … Now I’ve bartered here for booty of treasure the last of my life.” It would never occur to any hero from a Russian epic to sacrifice his life in exchange for riches. Ilya Muromets is not even able to accept the inducement offered by the brigands he meets – the “golden treasure, richly colored robe, and as many fine horses as he needed” (citation from the Russian fairytale ( http://tchaykovsky.ru/skazka/murom_solov.htm ) “Ilya Muromets and Nightingale the Robber”). He did not hesitate to reject the path by which he would “be rich,” instead voluntarily taking the road on which he would “be killed.”
And it is not only in this epic, but also in the legends, tales, songs, proverbs, and folk wisdom of the Russian people where it is evident that one’s duty to uphold one’s personal or tribal honor is something quite distinct from any duty to exact personal or tribal revenge.
The notion of retaliation, as such, is absent from Russian folklore, as if it were never part of the original “genetic code” of its people – the Russian champion has always gone to war as a liberator. And in this we can see the difference between Russians and Western Europeans.
The Russian historian and philosopher Ivan Ilyin ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Ilyin ) wrote:
“Europe cannot grasp us … because the Slavic and Russian way of contemplating the world, nature, and man is something alien to it. Humanity in Western Europe is motivated by will and intellect. The Russian people are above all guided by their hearts and imaginations, relegating the mind and will to a supporting role. Therefore, the average European is ashamed of sincerity, scruples, and kindness, viewing them as “foolishness.”
A European, nursed on the ideals of Rome, is secretly contemptuous of other nations and desires to rule over them. Russians, however, on the whole expect kindness, scruples, and sincerity from others.
The Russian people have always enjoyed the natural freedom of the vast space they inhabit … gazing “in wonder” at other nations, getting along with them amiably, with hatred only for oppressive invaders … “
Russians’ congenial relationships with their geographic neighbors are testament to their sense of justice and mercy. The Russian people never committed the same atrocities for which the enlightened Europeans were responsible in their own conquered lands.
The psychology of the nation includes a certain principle of moral restraint. These naturally strong, resilient, dynamic people have been endowed with an amazing ability to survive.
This spiritual strength is also the basis for Russians’ renowned forbearance and tolerance toward others.
Continually invaded from all sides and forced to live in an incredibly harsh climate, the Russian people managed to colonize vast swathes of land, but without slaughtering, enslaving, robbing, or forcibly baptizing any nation.
Western Europeans’ policies of colonialism annihilated the aboriginal populations on three continents and forced natives from across Africa into slavery, while its cities grew rich on the backs of those colonies.
The Russian nation, which also waged wars that were not purely defensive, acquired, like all great nations, large tracts of land, but never treated their conquered subjects as the Europeans did. The European people reaped the benefits of Europe’s conquests and its cities were enriched by the colonial plunder.
Russians robbed neither Siberia nor Central Asia nor the Caucasus nor the Baltics. Russia has preserved every nation within its borders, acting as their protector, granting them the right to own land and property and to practice their own faith, traditions, and culture.
Russia has never been a nationalist state – it has belonged to all who inhabit her. The Russian people were granted only one “advantage” – to bear the burden of nation-building.
The resulting state was like no other in the history of the world, and the Russian people defended it with their own blood, willingly sacrificing their very lives.
Precisely because they have borne so much suffering and heavy sacrifice, my people deeply empathized with the pain and suffering of other peoples languishing under the Nazi yoke.
And after liberating their own homeland, Russians channeled that same spirit of self-sacrifice and energy into liberating half of Europe.
This was an example of epic heroism! These are the stouthearted people born of the Russian earth! And I believe that such a feat can be accomplished even by a great nation only once a century.
The patriotism displayed by Russian soldiers in the fields of the Great Patriotic War met the highest ideal of patriotism – something unprecedented in the history of any nation anywhere in the world. And I will never agree with the media’s pronouncements about Russian “barbarianism” vs. European “virtue.”
I stand proud that our ancestors – our heroic ancestors – were so lovely, steadfast, courageous, and resilient, and that we are their descendants!
Whether this is objectively true or not, what good comes out of this nationalistic manner? Every nation on earth tend to see their cultural qualities, superior to other nations. This may look naive at a first glance, but it leads to chauvinism and rivalry. I used to think the best thing about russian culture (not that i know it very well) was that it managed to beat the nationalism and elitism at least once in its history, leading to internationalist practices. Now you counteract it...
I see it a bit different than that. For me, part of the Russian way is humility for example, which I see lacking in a lot of Australian politicians for example. I am Australian, but I actually see "being Russian" as something to strive for - kind of like "being someone who works towards one best self perceived potential for oneself". Sorry, I don't really have the words for it... but for me a "true Russian" is someone who seeks a higher potential, for themselves, their neighbours, the whole world. This is quite different to the plain "someone who lives within the borders of the country currently called Russia". And Russians today have the "benefit" if we can call it that, of having collectively gone through hell and back, in the current last few generations (WWII and the collapse of the USSR - very hard times). Perhaps for some geographic Russians, there is a prideful nationalism, but I think it is not so much - USSR was the world's second only superpower, then bam, USSR is no more, there's a breakup into a dozen countries, and suddenly "geographic Russians" are now separated all over eastern Europe, in so many different countries, families now need visas and travel permission to visit each other. And this isn't isolated experience, this is experience for many many millions of people! Russians genuinely looked up to the West. We were presented as the moral high ground, the ethically superior system - and, thankfully, many/ most Russians now see this "political" bullshit for what it was. Anyone can be Russian. Even anarchists :)
On 06/30/2016 02:12 AM, Cem Örsel quoted Zenaan Harkness" quoting Oriental Review:
The Russian ideal is more benevolent, contrasting noticeably with the historical Western hankering to dominate, subdue and exploit Anna Zhdanova
In a picture. An elderly Russian woman drunk and down on the snow-patched ground in a rural area of Russia with a klezmer band playing for her and other folks offering food, In the US there's be people standing around with cellies calling the cops and tsk tsk-ing The image and context came from Foreign Policy magazine a few years ago https://i.imgur.com/wi1Amd5.jpg
On Fri, 1 Jul 2016 08:44:19 -0700 Rayzer <rayzer@riseup.net> wrote:
On 06/30/2016 02:12 AM, Cem Örsel quoted Zenaan Harkness" quoting Oriental Review:
The Russian ideal is more benevolent, contrasting noticeably with the historical Western hankering to dominate, subdue and exploit Anna Zhdanova
In a picture.
In a picture, Dostoyevski sent to siberia.
On 07/01/2016 11:42 AM, juan wrote:
On Fri, 1 Jul 2016 08:44:19 -0700 Rayzer <rayzer@riseup.net> wrote:
On 06/30/2016 02:12 AM, Cem Örsel quoted Zenaan Harkness" quoting Oriental Review:
The Russian ideal is more benevolent, contrasting noticeably with the historical Western hankering to dominate, subdue and exploit Anna Zhdanova In a picture.
In a picture, Dostoyevski sent to siberia.
In a picture Chelsea Manning gets 35 years in a military prison for exposing war crimes. Dostoyevski got off easy. You're conflating apples and hand grenades troll. I suppose you also think today's average German citizen is responsible for the 3rd Reich... troll. Rr
On Fri, 1 Jul 2016 12:39:30 -0700 Rayzer <rayzer@riseup.net> wrote:
On 07/01/2016 11:42 AM, juan wrote:
On Fri, 1 Jul 2016 08:44:19 -0700 Rayzer <rayzer@riseup.net> wrote:
On 06/30/2016 02:12 AM, Cem Örsel quoted Zenaan Harkness" quoting Oriental Review:
The Russian ideal is more benevolent, contrasting noticeably with the historical Western hankering to dominate, subdue and exploit Anna Zhdanova In a picture.
In a picture, Dostoyevski sent to siberia.
In a picture Chelsea Manning gets 35 years in a military prison for exposing war crimes. Dostoyevski got off easy.
Got off easy? You are a sick piece of shit rayzer. Well, that is hardly news.
You're conflating apples and hand grenades troll. I suppose you also think today's average German citizen is responsible for the 3rd Reich... troll.
Rr
participants (11)
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Cem Örsel -
John Newman -
John Young -
juan -
Mirimir -
Rayzer -
Spencer -
Stephen D. Williams -
Steve Kinney -
Zenaan Harkness -
Александр