U. S. A.! A-me-ri-cah, f--- yeah! - How to rule the world, U.S. style
http://russia-insider.com/en/hey-obama-what-about-serbias-territoral-integri... Summary at bottom, summarizing shifting position of "west" over some time: "So let us recount the western position: - It claimed to uphold the sovereignty and territorial integrity of other countries and the inviolability of borders in Europe - However, this did not extend to the sovereignty and the territorial integrity of Federal Yugoslavia which could be trampled at will - Nonetheless, albeit the territorial integrity of Federal Yugoslavia itself wasn’t worth anything, the territorial integrity of its constituent republics seeking independence was holy - Albeit the territorial integrity of the Yugoslav constituent republics of Slovenia, Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina was holy, the territorial integrity of Serbia was not - Albeit Slovenes, Croats and Bosnian Muslims could leave Yugoslavia, Serbs could not leave Croatia and Bosnia - Albeit Serbs could not leave Croatia and Bosnia, Kosovo Albanians could secede from Serbia - Albeit Kosovo Albanians could secede from Serbia, Kosovo Serbs could not secede from Albanian-run Kosovo - Albeit Kosovo could unilaterally secede from Serbia under NATO military control, Crimea could not unilaterally secede from Ukraine under Russian military control May world be spared hunger, plague and western principles. "
supposedly when the west militarily controls a nation we give them democratic choice. When Putin's personal army controls a nation and a choice is made to join it to Russia, well, we call that a forced choice. It's hard to say which one actually happens. Somehow it wouldn't surprise me if "the west" was far more ethical than others. That either proves good propaganda, or it's just true.
On 06/18/2015 10:49 PM, Lodewijk andré de la porte wrote:
supposedly when the west militarily controls a nation we give them democratic choice. When Putin's personal army controls a nation and a choice is made to join it to Russia, well, we call that a forced choice.
It's hard to say which one actually happens. Somehow it wouldn't surprise me if "the west" was far more ethical than others. That either proves good propaganda, or it's just true.
"He was harassed, but still he spoke with authority. He was, in fact, characteristic of the best type of dominant male in the world at this time. He was fifty-five years old, tough, shrewd, unburdened by the complicated ethical ambiguities which puzzle intellectuals, and had long ago decided that the world was a mean son-of-a-bitch in which only the most cunning and ruthless can survive.
He was also as kind as was possible for one holding that ultra-Darwinian philosophy; and he genuinely loved children and dogs, unless they were on the site of something that had to be bombed in the National Interest. He still retained some sense of humor, despite the burdens of his almost godly office, and, although he had been impotent with his wife for nearly ten years now, he generally achieved orgasm in the mouth of a skilled prostitute within 1.5 minutes.
He took amphetamine pep pills to keep going on his grueling twenty-hour day, with the result that his vision of the world was somewhat skewed in a paranoid direction, and he took tranquilizers to keep from worrying too much, with the result that his detachment sometimes bordered on the schizophrenic; but most of the time his innate shrewdness gave him a fingernail grip on reality. In short, he was much like the rulers of Russia and China."
.....
"He was harassed, but still he spoke with authority. He was, in fact, characteristic of the best type of dominant male in the world at this time. He was fifty-five years old, tough, shrewd, unburdened by the complicated ethical ambiguities which puzzle intellectuals, and had long ago decided that the world was a mean son-of-a-bitch in which only the most cunning and ruthless can survive.
He was also as kind as was possible for one holding that ultra-Darwinian philosophy; and he genuinely loved children and dogs, unless they were on the site of something that had to be bombed in the National Interest. He still retained some sense of humor, despite the burdens of his almost godly office, and, although he had been impotent with his wife for nearly ten years now, he generally achieved orgasm in the mouth of a skilled prostitute within 1.5 minutes.
He took amphetamine pep pills to keep going on his grueling twenty-hour day, with the result that his vision of the world was somewhat skewed in a paranoid direction, and he took tranquilizers to keep from worrying too much, with the result that his detachment sometimes bordered on the schizophrenic; but most of the time his innate shrewdness gave him a fingernail grip on reality. In short, he was much like the rulers of the United States and China."
....
"He was harassed, but still he spoke with authority. He was, in fact, characteristic of the best type of dominant male in the world at this time. He was fifty-five years old, tough, shrewd, unburdened by the complicated ethical ambiguities which puzzle intellectuals, and had long ago decided that the world was a mean son-of-a-bitch in which only the most cunning and ruthless can survive.
He was also as kind as was possible for one holding that ultra-Darwinian philosophy; and he genuinely loved children and dogs, unless they were on the site of something that had to be bombed in the National Interest. He still retained some sense of humor, despite the burdens of his almost godly office, and, although he had been impotent with his wife for nearly ten years now, he generally achieved orgasm in the mouth of a skilled prostitute within 1.5 minutes.
He took amphetamine pep pills to keep going on his grueling twenty-hour day, with the result that his vision of the world was somewhat skewed in a paranoid direction, and he took tranquilizers to keep from worrying too much, with the result that his detachment sometimes bordered on the schizophrenic; but most of the time his innate shrewdness gave him a fingernail grip on reality. In short, he was much like the rulers of Rusia and the United States."
Robert Shea, Robert Anton Wilson, The Illuminatus Trilogy http://www.american-buddha.com/illuminatus!.toc.htm
What's the cypherpunk link in this? On Thu, 2015-06-18 at 19:41 +1000, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
http://russia-insider.com/en/hey-obama-what-about-serbias-territoral-integri...
Summary at bottom, summarizing shifting position of "west" over some time: "So let us recount the western position: - It claimed to uphold the sovereignty and territorial integrity of other countries and the inviolability of borders in Europe - However, this did not extend to the sovereignty and the territorial integrity of Federal Yugoslavia which could be trampled at will - Nonetheless, albeit the territorial integrity of Federal Yugoslavia itself wasn’t worth anything, the territorial integrity of its constituent republics seeking independence was holy - Albeit the territorial integrity of the Yugoslav constituent republics of Slovenia, Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina was holy, the territorial integrity of Serbia was not - Albeit Slovenes, Croats and Bosnian Muslims could leave Yugoslavia, Serbs could not leave Croatia and Bosnia - Albeit Serbs could not leave Croatia and Bosnia, Kosovo Albanians could secede from Serbia - Albeit Kosovo Albanians could secede from Serbia, Kosovo Serbs could not secede from Albanian-run Kosovo - Albeit Kosovo could unilaterally secede from Serbia under NATO military control, Crimea could not unilaterally secede from Ukraine under Russian military control
May world be spared hunger, plague and western principles. "
-- Sent from Ubuntu
On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 15:05:20 -0400 Ted Smith <tedks@riseup.net> wrote:
What's the cypherpunk link in this?
That was part of a discussion on the nature of western governments and western propaganda. Do you think that discussions on the nature of western governments are off-topic? Maybe banned? Maybe we should instead talk about how terrible the suffering of US military murderers is? paging Nick Econopouly <nickeconopouly@gmail.com>
On Thu, 2015-06-18 at 19:41 +1000, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
http://russia-insider.com/en/hey-obama-what-about-serbias-territoral-integri...
Summary at bottom, summarizing shifting position of "west" over some time: "So let us recount the western position: - It claimed to uphold the sovereignty and territorial integrity of other countries and the inviolability of borders in Europe - However, this did not extend to the sovereignty and the territorial integrity of Federal Yugoslavia which could be trampled at will - Nonetheless, albeit the territorial integrity of Federal Yugoslavia itself wasn’t worth anything, the territorial integrity of its constituent republics seeking independence was holy - Albeit the territorial integrity of the Yugoslav constituent republics of Slovenia, Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina was holy, the territorial integrity of Serbia was not - Albeit Slovenes, Croats and Bosnian Muslims could leave Yugoslavia, Serbs could not leave Croatia and Bosnia - Albeit Serbs could not leave Croatia and Bosnia, Kosovo Albanians could secede from Serbia - Albeit Kosovo Albanians could secede from Serbia, Kosovo Serbs could not secede from Albanian-run Kosovo - Albeit Kosovo could unilaterally secede from Serbia under NATO military control, Crimea could not unilaterally secede from Ukraine under Russian military control
May world be spared hunger, plague and western principles. "
I certainly think that geopolitics is not in general on topic for this list. "Western governments" and "western propaganda" also don't seem to me to be on topic for this list. This is not a list about propaganda or governance. Since this list is unmoderated, I am sharing my discontent in the hopes of demotivating further threads on this topic. That said, I guess cpunks was never good, it's meaningless to attempt to stop the shitstorm, etc., and so on. But now there are 2-3 posters who continually post random conspiracy crap and have built an echo chamber that totally drowns out any actual cypherpunking. Better posters (you know who you are), please stop encouraging this. On Tue, 2015-06-23 at 17:44 -0300, Juan wrote:
On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 15:05:20 -0400 Ted Smith <tedks@riseup.net> wrote:
What's the cypherpunk link in this?
That was part of a discussion on the nature of western governments and western propaganda.
Do you think that discussions on the nature of western governments are off-topic? Maybe banned?
Maybe we should instead talk about how terrible the suffering of US military murderers is?
paging Nick Econopouly <nickeconopouly@gmail.com>
On Thu, 2015-06-18 at 19:41 +1000, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
http://russia-insider.com/en/hey-obama-what-about-serbias-territoral-integri...
Summary at bottom, summarizing shifting position of "west" over some time: "So let us recount the western position: - It claimed to uphold the sovereignty and territorial integrity of other countries and the inviolability of borders in Europe - However, this did not extend to the sovereignty and the territorial integrity of Federal Yugoslavia which could be trampled at will - Nonetheless, albeit the territorial integrity of Federal Yugoslavia itself wasn’t worth anything, the territorial integrity of its constituent republics seeking independence was holy - Albeit the territorial integrity of the Yugoslav constituent republics of Slovenia, Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina was holy, the territorial integrity of Serbia was not - Albeit Slovenes, Croats and Bosnian Muslims could leave Yugoslavia, Serbs could not leave Croatia and Bosnia - Albeit Serbs could not leave Croatia and Bosnia, Kosovo Albanians could secede from Serbia - Albeit Kosovo Albanians could secede from Serbia, Kosovo Serbs could not secede from Albanian-run Kosovo - Albeit Kosovo could unilaterally secede from Serbia under NATO military control, Crimea could not unilaterally secede from Ukraine under Russian military control
May world be spared hunger, plague and western principles. "
-- Sent from Ubuntu
On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 16:51:19 -0400 Ted Smith <tedks@riseup.net> wrote:
I certainly think that geopolitics is not in general on topic for this list.
Go figure. Dont like messages about geopolitics? (like the US cunts spying on the whole world), don't read messages about geopolitics.
"Western governments" and "western propaganda" also don't seem to me to be on topic for this list. This is not a list about propaganda or governance.
Really. What about you the great "Ted Smith" completly banning political discussion? Since politics doesn't really have anything to do with 'cypherpunk'?
Since this list is unmoderated, I am sharing my discontent in the hopes of demotivating further threads on this topic.
That said, I guess cpunks was never good, it's meaningless to attempt to stop the shitstorm, etc., and so on. But now there are 2-3 posters who continually post random conspiracy crap and have built an echo chamber that totally drowns out any actual cypherpunking.
Go ahead. Post some 'actual' 'cypherpunking'. Maybe ask Dan Geer for support? Or help from the marines. Or the tor shitbags and their pentagon 'grants'.
Better posters (you know who you are), please stop encouraging this.
Government employees, you know who you are.
On Tue, 2015-06-23 at 17:44 -0300, Juan wrote:
On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 15:05:20 -0400 Ted Smith <tedks@riseup.net> wrote:
What's the cypherpunk link in this?
That was part of a discussion on the nature of western governments and western propaganda.
Do you think that discussions on the nature of western governments are off-topic? Maybe banned?
Maybe we should instead talk about how terrible the suffering of US military murderers is?
paging Nick Econopouly <nickeconopouly@gmail.com>
On Thu, 2015-06-18 at 19:41 +1000, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
http://russia-insider.com/en/hey-obama-what-about-serbias-territoral-integri...
Summary at bottom, summarizing shifting position of "west" over some time: "So let us recount the western position: - It claimed to uphold the sovereignty and territorial integrity of other countries and the inviolability of borders in Europe - However, this did not extend to the sovereignty and the territorial integrity of Federal Yugoslavia which could be trampled at will - Nonetheless, albeit the territorial integrity of Federal Yugoslavia itself wasn’t worth anything, the territorial integrity of its constituent republics seeking independence was holy - Albeit the territorial integrity of the Yugoslav constituent republics of Slovenia, Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina was holy, the territorial integrity of Serbia was not - Albeit Slovenes, Croats and Bosnian Muslims could leave Yugoslavia, Serbs could not leave Croatia and Bosnia - Albeit Serbs could not leave Croatia and Bosnia, Kosovo Albanians could secede from Serbia - Albeit Kosovo Albanians could secede from Serbia, Kosovo Serbs could not secede from Albanian-run Kosovo - Albeit Kosovo could unilaterally secede from Serbia under NATO military control, Crimea could not unilaterally secede from Ukraine under Russian military control
May world be spared hunger, plague and western principles. "
Propaganda is on-topic only insofar as it explores cointelpro, persona management, etc: not strictly crypto, but subversive and political (ab)uses of communications technology. And, while we're on the subject, I suspect much of this pro-anything-not-West crap is likely to be just that: cointelpro to discredit the genuine content and discourage subscription/participation by a wider audience. It's pretty effective, I think. On 23 June 2015 21:51:19 GMT+01:00, Ted Smith <tedks@riseup.net> wrote:
I certainly think that geopolitics is not in general on topic for this list.
"Western governments" and "western propaganda" also don't seem to me to be on topic for this list. This is not a list about propaganda or governance.
Since this list is unmoderated, I am sharing my discontent in the hopes of demotivating further threads on this topic.
That said, I guess cpunks was never good, it's meaningless to attempt to stop the shitstorm, etc., and so on. But now there are 2-3 posters who continually post random conspiracy crap and have built an echo chamber that totally drowns out any actual cypherpunking.
Better posters (you know who you are), please stop encouraging this.
On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 15:05:20 -0400 Ted Smith <tedks@riseup.net> wrote:
What's the cypherpunk link in this?
That was part of a discussion on the nature of western governments and western propaganda.
Do you think that discussions on the nature of western governments are off-topic? Maybe banned?
Maybe we should instead talk about how terrible the suffering of US military murderers is?
paging Nick Econopouly <nickeconopouly@gmail.com>
On Thu, 2015-06-18 at 19:41 +1000, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
http://russia-insider.com/en/hey-obama-what-about-serbias-territoral-integri...
Summary at bottom, summarizing shifting position of "west" over some time: "So let us recount the western position: - It claimed to uphold the sovereignty and territorial
integrity
of other countries and the inviolability of borders in Europe - However, this did not extend to the sovereignty and the territorial integrity of Federal Yugoslavia which could be
On Tue, 2015-06-23 at 17:44 -0300, Juan wrote: trampled
at will - Nonetheless, albeit the territorial integrity of Federal Yugoslavia itself wasn’t worth anything, the territorial integrity of its constituent republics seeking independence was holy - Albeit the territorial integrity of the Yugoslav constituent republics of Slovenia, Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina was holy, the territorial integrity of Serbia was not - Albeit Slovenes, Croats and Bosnian Muslims could leave Yugoslavia, Serbs could not leave Croatia and Bosnia - Albeit Serbs could not leave Croatia and Bosnia, Kosovo Albanians could secede from Serbia - Albeit Kosovo Albanians could secede from Serbia, Kosovo Serbs could not secede from Albanian-run Kosovo - Albeit Kosovo could unilaterally secede from Serbia under NATO military control, Crimea could not unilaterally secede from Ukraine under Russian military control
May world be spared hunger, plague and western principles. "
-- Sent from Ubuntu
-- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
+1 What Cathal said. (And I'm saying it as someone extremely critical of my own government and who rarely passes up an opportunity to make it known.) ---------- On June 23, 2015 2:37:24 PM "Cathal (Phone)" <cathalgarvey@cathalgarvey.me> wrote:
Propaganda is on-topic only insofar as it explores cointelpro, persona management, etc: not strictly crypto, but subversive and political (ab)uses of communications technology.
And, while we're on the subject, I suspect much of this pro-anything-not-West crap is likely to be just that: cointelpro to discredit the genuine content and discourage subscription/participation by a wider audience. It's pretty effective, I think.
On 23 June 2015 21:51:19 GMT+01:00, Ted Smith <tedks@riseup.net> wrote:
I certainly think that geopolitics is not in general on topic for this list.
"Western governments" and "western propaganda" also don't seem to me to be on topic for this list. This is not a list about propaganda or governance.
Since this list is unmoderated, I am sharing my discontent in the hopes of demotivating further threads on this topic.
That said, I guess cpunks was never good, it's meaningless to attempt to stop the shitstorm, etc., and so on. But now there are 2-3 posters who continually post random conspiracy crap and have built an echo chamber that totally drowns out any actual cypherpunking.
Better posters (you know who you are), please stop encouraging this.
On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 15:05:20 -0400 Ted Smith <tedks@riseup.net> wrote:
What's the cypherpunk link in this?
That was part of a discussion on the nature of western governments and western propaganda.
Do you think that discussions on the nature of western governments are off-topic? Maybe banned?
Maybe we should instead talk about how terrible the suffering of US military murderers is?
paging Nick Econopouly <nickeconopouly@gmail.com>
On Thu, 2015-06-18 at 19:41 +1000, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
http://russia-insider.com/en/hey-obama-what-about-serbias-territoral-integri...
Summary at bottom, summarizing shifting position of "west" over some time: "So let us recount the western position: - It claimed to uphold the sovereignty and territorial
integrity
of other countries and the inviolability of borders in Europe - However, this did not extend to the sovereignty and the territorial integrity of Federal Yugoslavia which could be
On Tue, 2015-06-23 at 17:44 -0300, Juan wrote: trampled
at will - Nonetheless, albeit the territorial integrity of Federal Yugoslavia itself wasn’t worth anything, the territorial integrity of its constituent republics seeking independence was holy - Albeit the territorial integrity of the Yugoslav constituent republics of Slovenia, Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina was holy, the territorial integrity of Serbia was not - Albeit Slovenes, Croats and Bosnian Muslims could leave Yugoslavia, Serbs could not leave Croatia and Bosnia - Albeit Serbs could not leave Croatia and Bosnia, Kosovo Albanians could secede from Serbia - Albeit Kosovo Albanians could secede from Serbia, Kosovo Serbs could not secede from Albanian-run Kosovo - Albeit Kosovo could unilaterally secede from Serbia under NATO military control, Crimea could not unilaterally secede from Ukraine under Russian military control
May world be spared hunger, plague and western principles. "
-- Sent from Ubuntu
-- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 15:09:01 -0700 Shelley <shelley@misanthropia.org> wrote:
+1
What Cathal said.
(And I'm saying it as someone extremely critical of my own government and who rarely passes up an opportunity to make it known.)
So? What are you objecting to, then?
---------- On June 23, 2015 2:37:24 PM "Cathal (Phone)" <cathalgarvey@cathalgarvey.me> wrote:
Propaganda is on-topic only insofar as it explores cointelpro, persona management, etc: not strictly crypto, but subversive and political (ab)uses of communications technology.
And, while we're on the subject, I suspect much of this pro-anything-not-West crap is likely to be just that: cointelpro to discredit the genuine content and discourage subscription/participation by a wider audience.
Oh yes. I'm anti west agent on the payroll of? Putin? The chinese? Or? It's quite funny though how a clown like cathal thinks he gets to decide what is and what isn't on topic... "discredit the genuine content" So, WHERE is the GENUINE content guys? Is it the stuff that dan geer, tim beelen, the tor apologists and the like post? Or is it something else. Links please?
I'll preface this by saying that I'm not fond of censoring list topics; I just skim or ignore topics/posts when they cease to interest me. I think discussing politics and propaganda is on-topic when it regards the main focus of the list. When governments intentionally weaken encryption, or threaten to/ actually pass draconian laws that directly affects the work we endeavour to do. Censorship, even, because we need to help reroute people around those blocks to get their messages out and essential info in. The pointless droning on about how much the USA and what it does sucks- and it does suck!- can become old. I know it's tempting because there are a lot of people here who agree, but there are other listservs better suited for it. Not meant to be a personal attack on anyone; I don't have a problem with any of you & I find it easy to scroll past that which doesn't interest me. Sometimes I'll even see a point of view I hadn't considered, even if the item in question isn't quite on-topic. Not everyone feels the same, though. -S ---------- On June 23, 2015 3:34:36 PM Juan <juan.g71@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 15:09:01 -0700 Shelley <shelley@misanthropia.org> wrote:
+1
What Cathal said.
(And I'm saying it as someone extremely critical of my own government and who rarely passes up an opportunity to make it known.)
So? What are you objecting to, then?
---------- On June 23, 2015 2:37:24 PM "Cathal (Phone)" <cathalgarvey@cathalgarvey.me> wrote:
Propaganda is on-topic only insofar as it explores cointelpro, persona management, etc: not strictly crypto, but subversive and political (ab)uses of communications technology.
And, while we're on the subject, I suspect much of this pro-anything-not-West crap is likely to be just that: cointelpro to discredit the genuine content and discourage subscription/participation by a wider audience.
Oh yes. I'm anti west agent on the payroll of? Putin? The chinese? Or?
It's quite funny though how a clown like cathal thinks he gets to decide what is and what isn't on topic...
"discredit the genuine content"
So, WHERE is the GENUINE content guys? Is it the stuff that dan geer, tim beelen, the tor apologists and the like post?
Or is it something else. Links please?
Were this the first time I had seen something like this on the list I would not have spoken up about it. But this list is rapidly degenerating into being a general conspiracy theory forum rather than a cypherpunk forum. This should be a collective and conscious decision, rather than something induced by a minority of active posters. On Tue, 2015-06-23 at 16:16 -0700, Shelley wrote:
I'll preface this by saying that I'm not fond of censoring list topics; I just skim or ignore topics/posts when they cease to interest me.
I think discussing politics and propaganda is on-topic when it regards the main focus of the list. When governments intentionally weaken encryption, or threaten to/ actually pass draconian laws that directly affects the work we endeavour to do. Censorship, even, because we need to help reroute people around those blocks to get their messages out and essential info in.
The pointless droning on about how much the USA and what it does sucks- and it does suck!- can become old. I know it's tempting because there are a lot of people here who agree, but there are other listservs better suited for it.
Not meant to be a personal attack on anyone; I don't have a problem with any of you & I find it easy to scroll past that which doesn't interest me. Sometimes I'll even see a point of view I hadn't considered, even if the item in question isn't quite on-topic. Not everyone feels the same, though.
-S
---------- On June 23, 2015 3:34:36 PM Juan <juan.g71@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 15:09:01 -0700 Shelley <shelley@misanthropia.org> wrote:
+1
What Cathal said.
(And I'm saying it as someone extremely critical of my own government and who rarely passes up an opportunity to make it known.)
So? What are you objecting to, then?
---------- On June 23, 2015 2:37:24 PM "Cathal (Phone)" <cathalgarvey@cathalgarvey.me> wrote:
Propaganda is on-topic only insofar as it explores cointelpro, persona management, etc: not strictly crypto, but subversive and political (ab)uses of communications technology.
And, while we're on the subject, I suspect much of this pro-anything-not-West crap is likely to be just that: cointelpro to discredit the genuine content and discourage subscription/participation by a wider audience.
Oh yes. I'm anti west agent on the payroll of? Putin? The chinese? Or?
It's quite funny though how a clown like cathal thinks he gets to decide what is and what isn't on topic...
"discredit the genuine content"
So, WHERE is the GENUINE content guys? Is it the stuff that dan geer, tim beelen, the tor apologists and the like post?
Or is it something else. Links please?
-- Sent from Ubuntu
Juan, you just put yourself up as an unsolicited reference for COINTELPRO. Good Job. Juan Garofalo. On 6/23/2015 6:36 PM, Juan wrote:
On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 15:09:01 -0700 Shelley <shelley@misanthropia.org> wrote:
+1
What Cathal said.
(And I'm saying it as someone extremely critical of my own government and who rarely passes up an opportunity to make it known.)
So? What are you objecting to, then?
---------- On June 23, 2015 2:37:24 PM "Cathal (Phone)" <cathalgarvey@cathalgarvey.me> wrote:
Propaganda is on-topic only insofar as it explores cointelpro, persona management, etc: not strictly crypto, but subversive and political (ab)uses of communications technology.
And, while we're on the subject, I suspect much of this pro-anything-not-West crap is likely to be just that: cointelpro to discredit the genuine content and discourage subscription/participation by a wider audience.
Oh yes. I'm anti west agent on the payroll of? Putin? The chinese? Or?
It's quite funny though how a clown like cathal thinks he gets to decide what is and what isn't on topic...
"discredit the genuine content"
So, WHERE is the GENUINE content guys? Is it the stuff that dan geer, tim beelen, the tor apologists and the like post?
Or is it something else. Links please?
On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 19:27:47 -0400 Tim Beelen <tim@diffalt.com> wrote:
Juan, you just put yourself up as an unsolicited reference for COINTELPRO. Good Job.
I'm trying to decypher...what the hell you mean?
Juan Garofalo.
Right. Look me up in the nsa database and report back please.
On 6/23/2015 6:36 PM, Juan wrote:
On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 15:09:01 -0700 Shelley <shelley@misanthropia.org> wrote:
+1
What Cathal said.
(And I'm saying it as someone extremely critical of my own government and who rarely passes up an opportunity to make it known.)
So? What are you objecting to, then?
---------- On June 23, 2015 2:37:24 PM "Cathal (Phone)" <cathalgarvey@cathalgarvey.me> wrote:
Propaganda is on-topic only insofar as it explores cointelpro, persona management, etc: not strictly crypto, but subversive and political (ab)uses of communications technology.
And, while we're on the subject, I suspect much of this pro-anything-not-West crap is likely to be just that: cointelpro to discredit the genuine content and discourage subscription/participation by a wider audience.
Oh yes. I'm anti west agent on the payroll of? Putin? The chinese? Or?
It's quite funny though how a clown like cathal thinks he gets to decide what is and what isn't on topic...
"discredit the genuine content"
So, WHERE is the GENUINE content guys? Is it the stuff that dan geer, tim beelen, the tor apologists and the like post?
Or is it something else. Links please?
I think Cathal's comment was a general remark. It did not necessarily concern you.
Oh yes. I'm anti west agent on the payroll of? Putin? The chinese? Or? I think you're South American. Your rhetoric squarely puts you there. Overly defensive on the subject of projecting power. Blatantly anti-American (rhetoric only, if you'd ever find yourself living here you'd find yourself a lot less radical and carry yourself a bit more respectful)
You are very sensitive on the subject of being run over by a foreign power indicates a permanent identity crisis (Argentine) as to where you fit in the world of things. Your over-sized ego i.e. taking things personally that are actually a general remark is quite a cultural trait. So is calling people by name instead of addressing the issue. Everything North of Chile sans Bolivia has common sensibilities towards the Government. Brazilians are not that outspoken, better at diverting and quite introverted. Bolivian culture is more refined and does not call out people like it's taking a piss. That makes you Chilean, Argentinian or Spanish. You're not European. Your English is too good. And my guess is Argentinian. On 6/23/2015 9:03 PM, Juan wrote:
On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 19:27:47 -0400 Tim Beelen <tim@diffalt.com> wrote:
Juan, you just put yourself up as an unsolicited reference for COINTELPRO. Good Job. I'm trying to decypher...what the hell you mean?
Juan Garofalo.
Right. Look me up in the nsa database and report back please.
On 6/23/2015 6:36 PM, Juan wrote:
On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 15:09:01 -0700 Shelley <shelley@misanthropia.org> wrote:
+1
What Cathal said.
(And I'm saying it as someone extremely critical of my own government and who rarely passes up an opportunity to make it known.) So? What are you objecting to, then?
---------- On June 23, 2015 2:37:24 PM "Cathal (Phone)" <cathalgarvey@cathalgarvey.me> wrote:
Propaganda is on-topic only insofar as it explores cointelpro, persona management, etc: not strictly crypto, but subversive and political (ab)uses of communications technology.
And, while we're on the subject, I suspect much of this pro-anything-not-West crap is likely to be just that: cointelpro to discredit the genuine content and discourage subscription/participation by a wider audience.
It's quite funny though how a clown like cathal thinks he gets to decide what is and what isn't on topic...
"discredit the genuine content"
So, WHERE is the GENUINE content guys? Is it the stuff that dan geer, tim beelen, the tor apologists and the like post?
Or is it something else. Links please?
On 24/06/15 13:39, Tim Beelen wrote: ______________________________________ / You're not European. Your English is \ \ too good. / -------------------------------------- \ \ \ >()_ (__)__ _
On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 21:39:21 -0400 Tim Beelen <tim@diffalt.com> wrote:
I think Cathal's comment was a general remark. It did not necessarily concern you.
I disagree. "Ted Smith" is explicitly whining about me "But now there are 2-3 posters who continually post random conspiracy crap" and given the 'context' of the thread, Cathal is also commenting on those '2 or 3' posters. Zeenan - and me.
Oh yes. I'm anti west agent on the payroll of? Putin? The chinese? Or? I think you're South American. Your rhetoric squarely puts you there. Overly defensive on the subject of projecting power. Blatantly anti-American (rhetoric only, if you'd ever find yourself living here you'd find yourself a lot less radical and carry yourself a bit more respectful)
So, did you look me up in the NSA database or not? That was the exercise. Your first conjecture is unwarranted. People from all over the world rightly despise the US government and its supporters. Now, if my 'rhetoric' drew inspiration from che guevara you might deduce that I'm from south america. However my 'rhetoric' (political philosophy actualy) can be traced to the likes of Lysander Spooner and other private property anarchists, who, I assure you, aren't popular authors in south america. Or anywhere else for that matter.
You are very sensitive on the subject of being run over by a foreign power indicates a permanent identity crisis (Argentine) as to where you fit in the world of things.
Okay. So now we've descended into psychobable. 'identity crisis'? Mildly amusing. You did a couple of searches and correctly found out that I come from argentina - the info is in the public domain. And based on that, you are making up a story.
Your over-sized ego i.e. taking things personally that are actually a general remark is quite a cultural trait. So is calling people by name instead of addressing the issue.
Everything North of Chile sans Bolivia has common sensibilities towards the Government. Brazilians are not that outspoken, better at diverting and quite introverted. Bolivian culture is more refined and does not call out people like it's taking a piss. That makes you Chilean, Argentinian or Spanish.
You're not European. Your English is too good.
Now that's interesting. How do you go from "good english"* to "not european"? If anything, europeans from germanic countries are likely to speak (way) better english than me. *and my english is so so at any rate.
And my guess is Argentinian.
Nominally, yes. I was born here and that's it. Now find out what government (terrorist organization) I work for. Take into account that the argentine government isn't going to pay me or anybody else to discuss libertarian principles on an obscure mailing list. Anyway, this is getting too boring. I suggest you ask "Ted Smith" to post some real cypherpunk stuff. Like, how great the pentagon's anonimity network is and how it spreads cancer, I mean democracy in china. Or something. J.
On 6/23/2015 9:03 PM, Juan wrote:
On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 19:27:47 -0400 Tim Beelen <tim@diffalt.com> wrote:
Juan, you just put yourself up as an unsolicited reference for COINTELPRO. Good Job. I'm trying to decypher...what the hell you mean?
Juan Garofalo.
Right. Look me up in the nsa database and report back please.
On 6/23/2015 11:12 PM, Juan wrote:
On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 21:39:21 -0400 Tim Beelen <tim@diffalt.com> wrote:
I think Cathal's comment was a general remark. It did not necessarily concern you.
I disagree. "Ted Smith" is explicitly whining about me
"But now there are 2-3 posters who continually post random conspiracy crap"
and given the 'context' of the thread, Cathal is also commenting on those '2 or 3' posters. Zeenan - and me.
Oh yes. I'm anti west agent on the payroll of? Putin? The chinese? Or? I think you're South American. Your rhetoric squarely puts you there. Overly defensive on the subject of projecting power. Blatantly anti-American (rhetoric only, if you'd ever find yourself living here you'd find yourself a lot less radical and carry yourself a bit more respectful)
So, did you look me up in the NSA database or not? That was the exercise.
Your first conjecture is unwarranted. People from all over the world rightly despise the US government and its supporters.
Now, if my 'rhetoric' drew inspiration from che guevara you might deduce that I'm from south america. However my 'rhetoric' (political philosophy actualy) can be traced to the likes of Lysander Spooner and other private property anarchists, who, I assure you, aren't popular authors in south america. Or anywhere else for that matter.
I read the motorcycle diaries-- and loved it. I have not read Lysander. I squarely base my assumptions on you being incongruous. And I'll have you know-- every man is a sum of it's experiences. So I can tell quite reliable where people are from. You are, if only partly, a product of your own government.
You are very sensitive on the subject of being run over by a foreign power indicates a permanent identity crisis (Argentine) as to where you fit in the world of things.
Okay. So now we've descended into psychobable. 'identity crisis'? Mildly amusing.
You did a couple of searches and correctly found out that I come from argentina - the info is in the public domain. And based on that, you are making up a story.
Maybe. But I'm pleased I was right. I wasn't sure I was right. Again, incongruancies (has a red squiggly I don't know how to spell it). Everyone talks shit non-sequitur. It triggers something in my brain (anger mostly) and I sort people by who they are based on that. It is one of my things.
Your over-sized ego i.e. taking things personally that are actually a general remark is quite a cultural trait. So is calling people by name instead of addressing the issue.
Everything North of Chile sans Bolivia has common sensibilities towards the Government. Brazilians are not that outspoken, better at diverting and quite introverted. Bolivian culture is more refined and does not call out people like it's taking a piss. That makes you Chilean, Argentinian or Spanish.
You're not European. Your English is too good.
Now that's interesting. How do you go from "good english"* to "not european"? If anything, europeans from germanic countries are likely to speak (way) better english than me.
*and my english is so so at any rate. Not necessarily true. You'd be surprised which people I consider functionally illiterate (not in the actual meaning, but diminished ability to convey information in writing etc.). Usually conflict areas are great places to look for people who can actually put two and two together and subsequently rely on language to convey critical information that is generally more particular and less generic. Which develops certain language skills. So far, the best all-round experience I had concerning people and their functional literacy: Albania, Finland, South Africa, Denmark, UAE, South South America. Great experience with Afghan refugees. Just to name a few. The Swiss. Singaporeans. But overall not mainland Europeans.
Mainland Europeans are over all a hit or miss. In Spain just about no one speaks proper English. The average European. Even though they have a rudimentary understanding of the English language a lot of them can't formulate a sentence to save their life. They rarely have any deeper understanding of idiom BECAUSE it resembles their own language. Also they fuck up the prepositions.
And my guess is Argentinian.
Nominally, yes. I was born here and that's it.
Now find out what government (terrorist organization) I work for. Take into account that the argentine government isn't going to pay me or anybody else to discuss libertarian principles on an obscure mailing list.
No. You're a disgruntled individual. You work for yourself.
Anyway, this is getting too boring. I suggest you ask "Ted Smith" to post some real cypherpunk stuff. Like, how great the pentagon's anonimity network is and how it spreads cancer, I mean democracy in china. Or something.
Wut. Cypherpunk-ness for me comes mainly in the form of using crypto so secure my data and the information of others. Good examples are, I can run a VPN to access my documents remotely-- but I could also use sftp. Which is easier to implement? Arguably SFTP. Added bonus is that my RSA certificates can be used to auth for both implementations. I encrypt client data with my public PGP key on a public server. Prefer the KISS model to cyber security rather then adding layers. VLAN? retarded. VPN? retarded (most use cases). Why do we (I) use these tools? Because the attacker, in my case, which usually comes from overseas are individuals looking for stuff to break into. CC numbers. That sort of thing. And most of my problems originate from India and China. Not that that is a reliable statement since we all know that the perp can be in Djibouti for all we know. But not very likely because most people don't care that much for OPSEC. They are not governments. 404s on my server: 70-80% originates from India/China. Port scans are almost all from India. And what really grinds my gears is that with shit standards like PCI compliance most payment gateways in the U.S. are 100% open. EXAMPLE: if I use my CC in a particular mall at a particular store, one month from now I get a call from the bank and have multiple $1 test charges of people guessing my CVC code. It had to happen 5 times before I could connect the dots. And it's all foreign malicious attacks. No governments. We need crypto to get in there and secure my transactions. Regardless if you think that CC companies are the square root of all evil.
J.
On 6/23/2015 9:03 PM, Juan wrote:
On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 19:27:47 -0400 Tim Beelen <tim@diffalt.com> wrote:
Juan, you just put yourself up as an unsolicited reference for COINTELPRO. Good Job. I'm trying to decypher...what the hell you mean?
Juan Garofalo. Right. Look me up in the nsa database and report back please.
On 06/23/2015 03:09 PM, Shelley wrote:
+1
What Cathal said.
(And I'm saying it as someone extremely critical of my own government and who rarely passes up an opportunity to make it known.)
+1 Except I think political fanatics on lists where much of what they say is off-topic (but potentially illuminating on occasion) are so much 'noise' and anyone frequenting lists are aware of that sort of disruption... Knows how to hit their OWN 'spam button' I'm emphasizing OWN because one poster suggested using a spam assassin script on one's mail server. That's fine if all you're 'serving' is YOUR OWN MAIL. I wouldn't care to see that happen on a relay or other server providing mail to more than ONE person and wouldn't want to associate with anyone who did so. I think it would be antithetical for anyone interested in a list with strong connection to things "Free Speech" to be posting here. RR
---------- On June 23, 2015 2:37:24 PM "Cathal (Phone)" <cathalgarvey@cathalgarvey.me> wrote:
Propaganda is on-topic only insofar as it explores cointelpro, persona management, etc: not strictly crypto, but subversive and political (ab)uses of communications technology.
And, while we're on the subject, I suspect much of this pro-anything-not-West crap is likely to be just that: cointelpro to discredit the genuine content and discourage subscription/participation by a wider audience. It's pretty effective, I think.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA512 On 06/23/2015 02:32 PM, Cathal (Phone) wrote:
And, while we're on the subject, I suspect much of this pro-anything-not-West crap is likely to be just that: cointelpro to discredit the genuine content and discourage subscription/participation by a wider audience. It's pretty effective, I think.
Not that this would ever, ever happen: https://firstlook.org/theintercept/document/2015/06/22/behavioural-science-s... - -- The Doctor [412/724/301/703/415] [ZS] PGP: 0x807B17C1 / 7960 1CDC 85C9 0B63 8D9F DD89 3BD8 FF2B 807B 17C1 WWW: https://drwho.virtadpt.net/ "Dogs are always going to come up short if you insist on defining them as a weird kind of cat." -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJViu/jAAoJED1np1pUQ8RkJ60P/iQB0FmZ6sVDd9pmigywKUjr IjL/qyB/nvlS3nbGbtRsm0ElY0ZkinP4A0f27kGpK789TPMnSUTSMrilQqFPiEl8 iEKZdndQ/tolY00UyvGtJKPmN8qfwoWeOfQoQs3wTQyxEQFXDAqfC7x2n40bPGE1 pVgTVzv7T8kZHubH8jpaDt9D1VoO1+B4/iv3TvVziG0qettwmkHehK1FBul9qsv+ m5PfcBmr5x3R8XFyNxEaEGjsIqexd4BrhSyS6gvXeXeeCjSJewQKir3xlIAnRnL9 2f2gPXC8xzDuZk84xJ9XTN9TlNYj0BVuRoWsp3Ob32rxsAQxIIQMs2bFqSU2KQ9e QASM+NSf1b59JFzfhBI40wCgSmHrnoEtJycB0KkEpQc/BJT/6HNGcc4eBjC/loCn 3SE93UPLcLXO7fbS7XXplcLKZhZSwdoqW4Ddsajeq0H4qL9zk8FWAj12kKF4ovYf CuZ4ssDum2yU6rdyaEUWCxeEiRgV7cc+xXMEypQKkUQB0nD6scVpKEKcF3BIIFd0 4m0kry1MdzSWEuADJoIo3LBsx/7oIDCRxS0SicSgtcB9X7G9eIFkFRu+xqs+8NDT Rgzba/bIwc/oWf18xeQo2myEmM8vwmT2NL1DeXB7wDyO4Kn7guaC04DbMUoIotQj sUYh6Or5UJhvDI1NpMks =Sy/P -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 16:51:19 -0400 Ted Smith <tedks@riseup.net> wrote:
This is not a list about propaganda or governance.
Yeah, it's not about 'governance' http://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/classes/6.805/articles/crypto/cypherpunks/ma... http://www.activism.net/cypherpunk/manifesto.html Also feel free to discuss just how the technical details are turning out. " ability for individuals and groups to communicate and interact with each other in a totally anonymous manner. " Hm. Seems that what we have now is the ability of governments to spy on the whole planet. "Reputations will be of central importance, far more important in dealings than even the credit ratings of today. " Aren't reputation and anonimity mutually exlusive? Oops. "These developments will alter completely the nature of government regulation, the ability to tax and control economic interactions" But it's not about governance. Hey! "Ted Smith" said so. Et cetera. J.
Well, I guess Juan's rhetorical question is voicing my concern that crazy-people political rants are not what I sought when I subscribed to this mailing list. Stop talking in blanket terms as 'propaganda' please, have you seen what ISIS PR came up with for this summer? Maybe Zenaan can cry next about their border inviolability next http://www.dumpert.nl/mediabase/6663326/f5c24e5e/isis_shock_video_zomer_2015... Maybe you'll get inspired by people being shot in a car with an RPG, or the explosive necklace or drowning in a cage. Fun Fun Fun. You can discuss the nature of western governments all you like. As long as an argument is well put together I and others will listen and won't even complain. Zenaan's stuff is neither. Well, and in addition of bringing things to the table that are way out of bounds, I also happen to disagree with just everything that Zenaan has to say. Zenaan not believe Russians are operating in the Ukraine. Zenaan conflates ethnic cleansing of an ethnic minority with international politics. Zenaan is tremendously biased towards a lot of issues. Anyway, I've got a pretty sweet solution to this: If you're running spamassassin on your mail server add the following rule in /etc/spamassassin/local.cf body ZENAAN_CAUSES_BRAINROT / Harkness/i score ZENAAN_CAUSES_BRAINROT 5.0 describe ZENAAN_CAUSES_BRAINROT cpunks.org mailinglist IDS (Idiot Denial System) On 6/23/2015 4:44 PM, Juan wrote:
On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 15:05:20 -0400 Ted Smith <tedks@riseup.net> wrote:
What's the cypherpunk link in this?
That was part of a discussion on the nature of western governments and western propaganda.
Do you think that discussions on the nature of western governments are off-topic? Maybe banned?
Maybe we should instead talk about how terrible the suffering of US military murderers is?
paging Nick Econopouly <nickeconopouly@gmail.com>
On Thu, 2015-06-18 at 19:41 +1000, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
http://russia-insider.com/en/hey-obama-what-about-serbias-territoral-integri...
Summary at bottom, summarizing shifting position of "west" over some time: "So let us recount the western position: - It claimed to uphold the sovereignty and territorial integrity of other countries and the inviolability of borders in Europe - However, this did not extend to the sovereignty and the territorial integrity of Federal Yugoslavia which could be trampled at will - Nonetheless, albeit the territorial integrity of Federal Yugoslavia itself wasn’t worth anything, the territorial integrity of its constituent republics seeking independence was holy - Albeit the territorial integrity of the Yugoslav constituent republics of Slovenia, Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina was holy, the territorial integrity of Serbia was not - Albeit Slovenes, Croats and Bosnian Muslims could leave Yugoslavia, Serbs could not leave Croatia and Bosnia - Albeit Serbs could not leave Croatia and Bosnia, Kosovo Albanians could secede from Serbia - Albeit Kosovo Albanians could secede from Serbia, Kosovo Serbs could not secede from Albanian-run Kosovo - Albeit Kosovo could unilaterally secede from Serbia under NATO military control, Crimea could not unilaterally secede from Ukraine under Russian military control
May world be spared hunger, plague and western principles. "
On Wed, Jun 24, 2015, at 07:46 AM, Tim Beelen wrote:
Well, I guess Juan's rhetorical question is voicing my concern that crazy-people political rants are not what I sought when I subscribed to this mailing list.
Maybe crazy-people rants are a tool used to get people annoyed forcing them to unsubscribe from the list: "The JTRIG unit of GCHQ is so notable because of its extensive use of propaganda methods and other online tactics of deceit and manipulation." https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/06/22/controversial-gchq-unit-domest... Alfie -- Alfie John alfiej@fastmail.fm
:D Soo sophistamicated. I thought CIA was meant to be an intelligence agency - not seein much from ya :) Nice to see you guys exposing yourselves though, I genuinely appreciate all the insights and the apparently genuine attempt at intelligent discourse. Seeing things I never saw before. I believe. You might need to charge yourself with indecent exposure, since you probably messed up in undressing quite so publicly. Guess that's why we get your delicious rant now. Mmm, yummy. Went back and read the photo-ops eh? Better luck next time, folks will be lookin out for your new fake I-D hey! I never liked "Beelen" anyway... :) Zenaan On 6/24/15, Tim Beelen <tim@diffalt.com> wrote:
Well, I guess Juan's rhetorical question is voicing my concern that crazy-people political rants are not what I sought when I subscribed to this mailing list.
Stop talking in blanket terms as 'propaganda' please, have you seen what ISIS PR came up with for this summer? Maybe Zenaan can cry next about their border inviolability next http://www.dumpert.nl/mediabase/6663326/f5c24e5e/isis_shock_video_zomer_2015...
Maybe you'll get inspired by people being shot in a car with an RPG, or the explosive necklace or drowning in a cage. Fun Fun Fun.
You can discuss the nature of western governments all you like. As long as an argument is well put together I and others will listen and won't even complain. Zenaan's stuff is neither.
Well, and in addition of bringing things to the table that are way out of bounds, I also happen to disagree with just everything that Zenaan has to say.
Zenaan not believe Russians are operating in the Ukraine.
Zenaan conflates ethnic cleansing of an ethnic minority with international politics.
Zenaan is tremendously biased towards a lot of issues.
Anyway, I've got a pretty sweet solution to this:
If you're running spamassassin on your mail server add the following rule in /etc/spamassassin/local.cf
body ZENAAN_CAUSES_BRAINROT / Harkness/i score ZENAAN_CAUSES_BRAINROT 5.0 describe ZENAAN_CAUSES_BRAINROT cpunks.org mailinglist IDS (Idiot Denial System)
On 6/23/2015 4:44 PM, Juan wrote:
On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 15:05:20 -0400 Ted Smith <tedks@riseup.net> wrote:
What's the cypherpunk link in this?
That was part of a discussion on the nature of western governments and western propaganda.
Do you think that discussions on the nature of western governments are off-topic? Maybe banned?
Maybe we should instead talk about how terrible the suffering of US military murderers is?
paging Nick Econopouly <nickeconopouly@gmail.com>
On Thu, 2015-06-18 at 19:41 +1000, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
http://russia-insider.com/en/hey-obama-what-about-serbias-territoral-integri...
Summary at bottom, summarizing shifting position of "west" over some time: "So let us recount the western position: - It claimed to uphold the sovereignty and territorial integrity of other countries and the inviolability of borders in Europe - However, this did not extend to the sovereignty and the territorial integrity of Federal Yugoslavia which could be trampled at will - Nonetheless, albeit the territorial integrity of Federal Yugoslavia itself wasn’t worth anything, the territorial integrity of its constituent republics seeking independence was holy - Albeit the territorial integrity of the Yugoslav constituent republics of Slovenia, Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina was holy, the territorial integrity of Serbia was not - Albeit Slovenes, Croats and Bosnian Muslims could leave Yugoslavia, Serbs could not leave Croatia and Bosnia - Albeit Serbs could not leave Croatia and Bosnia, Kosovo Albanians could secede from Serbia - Albeit Kosovo Albanians could secede from Serbia, Kosovo Serbs could not secede from Albanian-run Kosovo - Albeit Kosovo could unilaterally secede from Serbia under NATO military control, Crimea could not unilaterally secede from Ukraine under Russian military control
May world be spared hunger, plague and western principles. "
On 06/23, Juan wrote:
On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 15:05:20 -0400 Ted Smith <tedks@riseup.net> wrote:
What's the cypherpunk link in this?
That was part of a discussion on the nature of western governments and western propaganda.
There was no discussion on the 'nature of western governments and western propaganda'. There were childish arguments between apologists of Russia, US, and anarcho-capitalism. Although it is misrepresetation to call the USsian in the conversation an apologist. I think members of the group would be much more receptive to the 'nature of western governments and western propaganda' as a mature discussion. As it was, how many of these can you count? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies
Do you think that discussions on the nature of western governments are off-topic? Maybe banned?
As for 'censoring' these discussion, a delicate topic on a mailing list for people who support cryptography as a way to oppose censorship, have anonymity, etc, why don't we go with simply allowing the users to block members if they need to on their own mail clients. This seems compatable with the philosophies of a cypherpunk(I would guess), 'leave the user in control'.
Maybe we should instead talk about how terrible the suffering of US military murderers is?
paging Nick Econopouly <nickeconopouly@gmail.com> What? You're delusional. Just because I see your fringe ideology for what it is doesn't mean I suddenly support USA Gov or military.
On Thu, 2015-06-18 at 19:41 +1000, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
http://russia-insider.com/en/hey-obama-what-about-serbias-territoral-integri...
Summary at bottom, summarizing shifting position of "west" over some time: "So let us recount the western position: - It claimed to uphold the sovereignty and territorial integrity of other countries and the inviolability of borders in Europe - However, this did not extend to the sovereignty and the territorial integrity of Federal Yugoslavia which could be trampled at will - Nonetheless, albeit the territorial integrity of Federal Yugoslavia itself wasn’t worth anything, the territorial integrity of its constituent republics seeking independence was holy - Albeit the territorial integrity of the Yugoslav constituent republics of Slovenia, Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina was holy, the territorial integrity of Serbia was not - Albeit Slovenes, Croats and Bosnian Muslims could leave Yugoslavia, Serbs could not leave Croatia and Bosnia - Albeit Serbs could not leave Croatia and Bosnia, Kosovo Albanians could secede from Serbia - Albeit Kosovo Albanians could secede from Serbia, Kosovo Serbs could not secede from Albanian-run Kosovo - Albeit Kosovo could unilaterally secede from Serbia under NATO military control, Crimea could not unilaterally secede from Ukraine under Russian military control
May world be spared hunger, plague and western principles. "
Dnia czwartek, 18 czerwca 2015 19:41:09 Zenaan Harkness pisze:
http://russia-insider.com/en/hey-obama-what-about-serbias-territoral-integri ty/ri8092
(...) May world be spared hunger, plague and western principles. "
Pot, calling the kettle black. There are innumerable problems with US foreign policy, and we should tackle them. But Russia right now poses real danger, and goes almost completely unchecked, beacause if anybody says anything bad about Russia, that person is immediately being painted as USA supporter. -- Pozdrawiam, Michał "rysiek" Woźniak Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147 GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147
participants (13)
-
Alfie John
-
Cathal (Phone)
-
Christian Gagneraud
-
Juan
-
Lodewijk andré de la porte
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Nick Econopouly
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Razer
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rysiek
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Shelley
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Ted Smith
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The Doctor
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Tim Beelen
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Zenaan Harkness