On 06/18/2015 10:49 PM, Lodewijk andré de la porte wrote:

supposedly when the west militarily controls a nation we give them democratic choice. When Putin's personal army controls a nation and a choice is made to join it to Russia, well, we call that a forced choice.

It's hard to say which one actually happens. Somehow it wouldn't surprise me if "the west" was far more ethical than others. That either proves good propaganda, or it's just true.

"He was harassed, but still he spoke with authority. He was, in fact, characteristic of the best type of dominant male in the world at this time. He was fifty-five years old, tough, shrewd, unburdened by the complicated ethical ambiguities which puzzle intellectuals, and had long ago decided that the world was a mean son-of-a-bitch in which only the most cunning and ruthless can survive.

He was also as kind as was possible for one holding that ultra-Darwinian philosophy; and he genuinely loved children and dogs, unless they were on the site of something that had to be bombed in the National Interest. He still retained some sense of humor, despite the burdens of his almost godly office, and, although he had been impotent with his wife for nearly ten years now, he generally achieved orgasm in the mouth of a skilled prostitute within 1.5 minutes.

He took amphetamine pep pills to keep going on his grueling twenty-hour day, with the result that his vision of the world was somewhat skewed in a paranoid direction, and he took tranquilizers to keep from worrying too much, with the result that his detachment sometimes bordered on the schizophrenic; but most of the time his innate shrewdness gave him a fingernail grip on reality. In short, he was much like the rulers of Russia and China."

.....

"He was harassed, but still he spoke with authority. He was, in fact, characteristic of the best type of dominant male in the world at this time. He was fifty-five years old, tough, shrewd, unburdened by the complicated ethical ambiguities which puzzle intellectuals, and had long ago decided that the world was a mean son-of-a-bitch in which only the most cunning and ruthless can survive.

He was also as kind as was possible for one holding that ultra-Darwinian philosophy; and he genuinely loved children and dogs, unless they were on the site of something that had to be bombed in the National Interest. He still retained some sense of humor, despite the burdens of his almost godly office, and, although he had been impotent with his wife for nearly ten years now, he generally achieved orgasm in the mouth of a skilled prostitute within 1.5 minutes.

He took amphetamine pep pills to keep going on his grueling twenty-hour day, with the result that his vision of the world was somewhat skewed in a paranoid direction, and he took tranquilizers to keep from worrying too much, with the result that his detachment sometimes bordered on the schizophrenic; but most of the time his innate shrewdness gave him a fingernail grip on reality. In short, he was much like the rulers of the United States and China."

....

"He was harassed, but still he spoke with authority. He was, in fact, characteristic of the best type of dominant male in the world at this time. He was fifty-five years old, tough, shrewd, unburdened by the complicated ethical ambiguities which puzzle intellectuals, and had long ago decided that the world was a mean son-of-a-bitch in which only the most cunning and ruthless can survive.

He was also as kind as was possible for one holding that ultra-Darwinian philosophy; and he genuinely loved children and dogs, unless they were on the site of something that had to be bombed in the National Interest. He still retained some sense of humor, despite the burdens of his almost godly office, and, although he had been impotent with his wife for nearly ten years now, he generally achieved orgasm in the mouth of a skilled prostitute within 1.5 minutes.

He took amphetamine pep pills to keep going on his grueling twenty-hour day, with the result that his vision of the world was somewhat skewed in a paranoid direction, and he took tranquilizers to keep from worrying too much, with the result that his detachment sometimes bordered on the schizophrenic; but most of the time his innate shrewdness gave him a fingernail grip on reality. In short, he was much like the rulers of Rusia and the United States."

Robert Shea, Robert Anton Wilson, The Illuminatus Trilogy http://www.american-buddha.com/illuminatus!.toc.htm

On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 15:05:20 -0400 Ted Smith wrote:

What's the cypherpunk link in this?

That was part of a discussion on the nature of western governments and western propaganda. Do you think that discussions on the nature of western governments are off-topic? Maybe banned? Maybe we should instead talk about how terrible the suffering of US military murderers is? paging Nick Econopouly

On Thu, 2015-06-18 at 19:41 +1000, Zenaan Harkness wrote:

...

http://russia-insider.com/en/hey-obama-what-about-serbias-territoral-integri...

Summary at bottom, summarizing shifting position of "west" over some time: "So let us recount the western position: - It claimed to uphold the sovereignty and territorial integrity of other countries and the inviolability of borders in Europe - However, this did not extend to the sovereignty and the territorial integrity of Federal Yugoslavia which could be trampled at will - Nonetheless, albeit the territorial integrity of Federal Yugoslavia itself wasn’t worth anything, the territorial integrity of its constituent republics seeking independence was holy - Albeit the territorial integrity of the Yugoslav constituent republics of Slovenia, Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina was holy, the territorial integrity of Serbia was not - Albeit Slovenes, Croats and Bosnian Muslims could leave Yugoslavia, Serbs could not leave Croatia and Bosnia - Albeit Serbs could not leave Croatia and Bosnia, Kosovo Albanians could secede from Serbia - Albeit Kosovo Albanians could secede from Serbia, Kosovo Serbs could not secede from Albanian-run Kosovo - Albeit Kosovo could unilaterally secede from Serbia under NATO military control, Crimea could not unilaterally secede from Ukraine under Russian military control

May world be spared hunger, plague and western principles. "

On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 16:51:19 -0400 Ted Smith wrote:

I certainly think that geopolitics is not in general on topic for this list.

Go figure. Dont like messages about geopolitics? (like the US cunts spying on the whole world), don't read messages about geopolitics.

"Western governments" and "western propaganda" also don't seem to me to be on topic for this list. This is not a list about propaganda or governance.

Really. What about you the great "Ted Smith" completly banning political discussion? Since politics doesn't really have anything to do with 'cypherpunk'?

Since this list is unmoderated, I am sharing my discontent in the hopes of demotivating further threads on this topic.

That said, I guess cpunks was never good, it's meaningless to attempt to stop the shitstorm, etc., and so on. But now there are 2-3 posters who continually post random conspiracy crap and have built an echo chamber that totally drowns out any actual cypherpunking.

Go ahead. Post some 'actual' 'cypherpunking'. Maybe ask Dan Geer for support? Or help from the marines. Or the tor shitbags and their pentagon 'grants'.

Better posters (you know who you are), please stop encouraging this.

Government employees, you know who you are.

On Tue, 2015-06-23 at 17:44 -0300, Juan wrote:

...

On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 15:05:20 -0400 Ted Smith wrote:

...

What's the cypherpunk link in this?

That was part of a discussion on the nature of western governments and western propaganda.

Do you think that discussions on the nature of western governments are off-topic? Maybe banned?

Maybe we should instead talk about how terrible the suffering of US military murderers is?

paging Nick Econopouly

...

On Thu, 2015-06-18 at 19:41 +1000, Zenaan Harkness wrote:

...

http://russia-insider.com/en/hey-obama-what-about-serbias-territoral-integri...

Summary at bottom, summarizing shifting position of "west" over some time: "So let us recount the western position: - It claimed to uphold the sovereignty and territorial integrity of other countries and the inviolability of borders in Europe - However, this did not extend to the sovereignty and the territorial integrity of Federal Yugoslavia which could be trampled at will - Nonetheless, albeit the territorial integrity of Federal Yugoslavia itself wasn’t worth anything, the territorial integrity of its constituent republics seeking independence was holy - Albeit the territorial integrity of the Yugoslav constituent republics of Slovenia, Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina was holy, the territorial integrity of Serbia was not - Albeit Slovenes, Croats and Bosnian Muslims could leave Yugoslavia, Serbs could not leave Croatia and Bosnia - Albeit Serbs could not leave Croatia and Bosnia, Kosovo Albanians could secede from Serbia - Albeit Kosovo Albanians could secede from Serbia, Kosovo Serbs could not secede from Albanian-run Kosovo - Albeit Kosovo could unilaterally secede from Serbia under NATO military control, Crimea could not unilaterally secede from Ukraine under Russian military control

May world be spared hunger, plague and western principles. "

+1 What Cathal said. (And I'm saying it as someone extremely critical of my own government and who rarely passes up an opportunity to make it known.) ---------- On June 23, 2015 2:37:24 PM "Cathal (Phone)" wrote:

Propaganda is on-topic only insofar as it explores cointelpro, persona management, etc: not strictly crypto, but subversive and political (ab)uses of communications technology.

And, while we're on the subject, I suspect much of this pro-anything-not-West crap is likely to be just that: cointelpro to discredit the genuine content and discourage subscription/participation by a wider audience. It's pretty effective, I think.

On 23 June 2015 21:51:19 GMT+01:00, Ted Smith wrote:

...

I certainly think that geopolitics is not in general on topic for this list.

"Western governments" and "western propaganda" also don't seem to me to be on topic for this list. This is not a list about propaganda or governance.

Since this list is unmoderated, I am sharing my discontent in the hopes of demotivating further threads on this topic.

That said, I guess cpunks was never good, it's meaningless to attempt to stop the shitstorm, etc., and so on. But now there are 2-3 posters who continually post random conspiracy crap and have built an echo chamber that totally drowns out any actual cypherpunking.

Better posters (you know who you are), please stop encouraging this.

...

On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 15:05:20 -0400 Ted Smith wrote:

...

What's the cypherpunk link in this?

That was part of a discussion on the nature of western governments and western propaganda.

Do you think that discussions on the nature of western governments are off-topic? Maybe banned?

Maybe we should instead talk about how terrible the suffering of US military murderers is?

paging Nick Econopouly

...

On Thu, 2015-06-18 at 19:41 +1000, Zenaan Harkness wrote:

...

http://russia-insider.com/en/hey-obama-what-about-serbias-territoral-integri...

...

...

Summary at bottom, summarizing shifting position of "west" over some time: "So let us recount the western position: - It claimed to uphold the sovereignty and territorial

integrity

...

of other countries and the inviolability of borders in Europe - However, this did not extend to the sovereignty and the territorial integrity of Federal Yugoslavia which could be

On Tue, 2015-06-23 at 17:44 -0300, Juan wrote: trampled

...

...

...

at will - Nonetheless, albeit the territorial integrity of Federal Yugoslavia itself wasn’t worth anything, the territorial integrity of its constituent republics seeking independence was holy - Albeit the territorial integrity of the Yugoslav constituent republics of Slovenia, Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina was holy, the territorial integrity of Serbia was not - Albeit Slovenes, Croats and Bosnian Muslims could leave Yugoslavia, Serbs could not leave Croatia and Bosnia - Albeit Serbs could not leave Croatia and Bosnia, Kosovo Albanians could secede from Serbia - Albeit Kosovo Albanians could secede from Serbia, Kosovo Serbs could not secede from Albanian-run Kosovo - Albeit Kosovo could unilaterally secede from Serbia under NATO military control, Crimea could not unilaterally secede from Ukraine under Russian military control

May world be spared hunger, plague and western principles. "

-- Sent from Ubuntu

-- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

I'll preface this by saying that I'm not fond of censoring list topics; I just skim or ignore topics/posts when they cease to interest me. I think discussing politics and propaganda is on-topic when it regards the main focus of the list. When governments intentionally weaken encryption, or threaten to/ actually pass draconian laws that directly affects the work we endeavour to do. Censorship, even, because we need to help reroute people around those blocks to get their messages out and essential info in. The pointless droning on about how much the USA and what it does sucks- and it does suck!- can become old. I know it's tempting because there are a lot of people here who agree, but there are other listservs better suited for it. Not meant to be a personal attack on anyone; I don't have a problem with any of you & I find it easy to scroll past that which doesn't interest me. Sometimes I'll even see a point of view I hadn't considered, even if the item in question isn't quite on-topic. Not everyone feels the same, though. -S ---------- On June 23, 2015 3:34:36 PM Juan wrote:

On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 15:09:01 -0700 Shelley wrote:

...

+1

What Cathal said.

(And I'm saying it as someone extremely critical of my own government and who rarely passes up an opportunity to make it known.)

So? What are you objecting to, then?

...

---------- On June 23, 2015 2:37:24 PM "Cathal (Phone)" wrote:

...

Propaganda is on-topic only insofar as it explores cointelpro, persona management, etc: not strictly crypto, but subversive and political (ab)uses of communications technology.

And, while we're on the subject, I suspect much of this pro-anything-not-West crap is likely to be just that: cointelpro to discredit the genuine content and discourage subscription/participation by a wider audience.

Oh yes. I'm anti west agent on the payroll of? Putin? The chinese? Or?

It's quite funny though how a clown like cathal thinks he gets to decide what is and what isn't on topic...

"discredit the genuine content"

So, WHERE is the GENUINE content guys? Is it the stuff that dan geer, tim beelen, the tor apologists and the like post?

Or is it something else. Links please?

Juan, you just put yourself up as an unsolicited reference for COINTELPRO. Good Job. Juan Garofalo. On 6/23/2015 6:36 PM, Juan wrote:

On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 15:09:01 -0700 Shelley wrote:

...

+1

What Cathal said.

(And I'm saying it as someone extremely critical of my own government and who rarely passes up an opportunity to make it known.)

So? What are you objecting to, then?

...

---------- On June 23, 2015 2:37:24 PM "Cathal (Phone)" wrote:

...

Propaganda is on-topic only insofar as it explores cointelpro, persona management, etc: not strictly crypto, but subversive and political (ab)uses of communications technology.

And, while we're on the subject, I suspect much of this pro-anything-not-West crap is likely to be just that: cointelpro to discredit the genuine content and discourage subscription/participation by a wider audience.

Oh yes. I'm anti west agent on the payroll of? Putin? The chinese? Or?

It's quite funny though how a clown like cathal thinks he gets to decide what is and what isn't on topic...

"discredit the genuine content"

So, WHERE is the GENUINE content guys? Is it the stuff that dan geer, tim beelen, the tor apologists and the like post?

Or is it something else. Links please?

I think Cathal's comment was a general remark. It did not necessarily concern you.

Oh yes. I'm anti west agent on the payroll of? Putin? The chinese? Or? I think you're South American. Your rhetoric squarely puts you there. Overly defensive on the subject of projecting power. Blatantly anti-American (rhetoric only, if you'd ever find yourself living here you'd find yourself a lot less radical and carry yourself a bit more respectful)

You are very sensitive on the subject of being run over by a foreign power indicates a permanent identity crisis (Argentine) as to where you fit in the world of things. Your over-sized ego i.e. taking things personally that are actually a general remark is quite a cultural trait. So is calling people by name instead of addressing the issue. Everything North of Chile sans Bolivia has common sensibilities towards the Government. Brazilians are not that outspoken, better at diverting and quite introverted. Bolivian culture is more refined and does not call out people like it's taking a piss. That makes you Chilean, Argentinian or Spanish. You're not European. Your English is too good. And my guess is Argentinian. On 6/23/2015 9:03 PM, Juan wrote:

On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 19:27:47 -0400 Tim Beelen wrote:

...

Juan, you just put yourself up as an unsolicited reference for COINTELPRO. Good Job. I'm trying to decypher...what the hell you mean?

...

Juan Garofalo.

Right. Look me up in the nsa database and report back please.

...

On 6/23/2015 6:36 PM, Juan wrote:

...

On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 15:09:01 -0700 Shelley wrote:

...

+1

What Cathal said.

(And I'm saying it as someone extremely critical of my own government and who rarely passes up an opportunity to make it known.) So? What are you objecting to, then?

...

---------- On June 23, 2015 2:37:24 PM "Cathal (Phone)" wrote:

...

Propaganda is on-topic only insofar as it explores cointelpro, persona management, etc: not strictly crypto, but subversive and political (ab)uses of communications technology.

And, while we're on the subject, I suspect much of this pro-anything-not-West crap is likely to be just that: cointelpro to discredit the genuine content and discourage subscription/participation by a wider audience.

It's quite funny though how a clown like cathal thinks he gets to decide what is and what isn't on topic...

"discredit the genuine content"

So, WHERE is the GENUINE content guys? Is it the stuff that dan geer, tim beelen, the tor apologists and the like post?

Or is it something else. Links please?

On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 21:39:21 -0400 Tim Beelen wrote:

I think Cathal's comment was a general remark. It did not necessarily concern you.

I disagree. "Ted Smith" is explicitly whining about me "But now there are 2-3 posters who continually post random conspiracy crap" and given the 'context' of the thread, Cathal is also commenting on those '2 or 3' posters. Zeenan - and me.

...

Oh yes. I'm anti west agent on the payroll of? Putin? The chinese? Or? I think you're South American. Your rhetoric squarely puts you there. Overly defensive on the subject of projecting power. Blatantly anti-American (rhetoric only, if you'd ever find yourself living here you'd find yourself a lot less radical and carry yourself a bit more respectful)

So, did you look me up in the NSA database or not? That was the exercise. Your first conjecture is unwarranted. People from all over the world rightly despise the US government and its supporters. Now, if my 'rhetoric' drew inspiration from che guevara you might deduce that I'm from south america. However my 'rhetoric' (political philosophy actualy) can be traced to the likes of Lysander Spooner and other private property anarchists, who, I assure you, aren't popular authors in south america. Or anywhere else for that matter.

You are very sensitive on the subject of being run over by a foreign power indicates a permanent identity crisis (Argentine) as to where you fit in the world of things.

Okay. So now we've descended into psychobable. 'identity crisis'? Mildly amusing. You did a couple of searches and correctly found out that I come from argentina - the info is in the public domain. And based on that, you are making up a story.

Your over-sized ego i.e. taking things personally that are actually a general remark is quite a cultural trait. So is calling people by name instead of addressing the issue.

Everything North of Chile sans Bolivia has common sensibilities towards the Government. Brazilians are not that outspoken, better at diverting and quite introverted. Bolivian culture is more refined and does not call out people like it's taking a piss. That makes you Chilean, Argentinian or Spanish.

You're not European. Your English is too good.

Now that's interesting. How do you go from "good english"* to "not european"? If anything, europeans from germanic countries are likely to speak (way) better english than me. *and my english is so so at any rate.

And my guess is Argentinian.

Nominally, yes. I was born here and that's it. Now find out what government (terrorist organization) I work for. Take into account that the argentine government isn't going to pay me or anybody else to discuss libertarian principles on an obscure mailing list. Anyway, this is getting too boring. I suggest you ask "Ted Smith" to post some real cypherpunk stuff. Like, how great the pentagon's anonimity network is and how it spreads cancer, I mean democracy in china. Or something. J.

On 6/23/2015 9:03 PM, Juan wrote:

...

On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 19:27:47 -0400 Tim Beelen wrote:

...

Juan, you just put yourself up as an unsolicited reference for COINTELPRO. Good Job. I'm trying to decypher...what the hell you mean?

...

Juan Garofalo.

Right. Look me up in the nsa database and report back please.

On 06/23/2015 03:09 PM, Shelley wrote:

+1

What Cathal said.

(And I'm saying it as someone extremely critical of my own government and who rarely passes up an opportunity to make it known.)

+1 Except I think political fanatics on lists where much of what they say is off-topic (but potentially illuminating on occasion) are so much 'noise' and anyone frequenting lists are aware of that sort of disruption... Knows how to hit their OWN 'spam button' I'm emphasizing OWN because one poster suggested using a spam assassin script on one's mail server. That's fine if all you're 'serving' is YOUR OWN MAIL. I wouldn't care to see that happen on a relay or other server providing mail to more than ONE person and wouldn't want to associate with anyone who did so. I think it would be antithetical for anyone interested in a list with strong connection to things "Free Speech" to be posting here. RR

---------- On June 23, 2015 2:37:24 PM "Cathal (Phone)" wrote:

...

Propaganda is on-topic only insofar as it explores cointelpro, persona management, etc: not strictly crypto, but subversive and political (ab)uses of communications technology.

And, while we're on the subject, I suspect much of this pro-anything-not-West crap is likely to be just that: cointelpro to discredit the genuine content and discourage subscription/participation by a wider audience. It's pretty effective, I think.

On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 16:51:19 -0400 Ted Smith wrote:

This is not a list about propaganda or governance.

Yeah, it's not about 'governance' http://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/classes/6.805/articles/crypto/cypherpunks/ma... http://www.activism.net/cypherpunk/manifesto.html Also feel free to discuss just how the technical details are turning out. " ability for individuals and groups to communicate and interact with each other in a totally anonymous manner. " Hm. Seems that what we have now is the ability of governments to spy on the whole planet. "Reputations will be of central importance, far more important in dealings than even the credit ratings of today. " Aren't reputation and anonimity mutually exlusive? Oops. "These developments will alter completely the nature of government regulation, the ability to tax and control economic interactions" But it's not about governance. Hey! "Ted Smith" said so. Et cetera. J.

On Wed, Jun 24, 2015, at 07:46 AM, Tim Beelen wrote:

Well, I guess Juan's rhetorical question is voicing my concern that crazy-people political rants are not what I sought when I subscribed to this mailing list.

Maybe crazy-people rants are a tool used to get people annoyed forcing them to unsubscribe from the list: "The JTRIG unit of GCHQ is so notable because of its extensive use of propaganda methods and other online tactics of deceit and manipulation." https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/06/22/controversial-gchq-unit-domest... Alfie -- Alfie John alfiej@fastmail.fm

On 06/23, Juan wrote:

On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 15:05:20 -0400 Ted Smith wrote:

...

What's the cypherpunk link in this?

That was part of a discussion on the nature of western governments and western propaganda.

There was no discussion on the 'nature of western governments and western propaganda'. There were childish arguments between apologists of Russia, US, and anarcho-capitalism. Although it is misrepresetation to call the USsian in the conversation an apologist. I think members of the group would be much more receptive to the 'nature of western governments and western propaganda' as a mature discussion. As it was, how many of these can you count? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies

Do you think that discussions on the nature of western governments are off-topic? Maybe banned?

As for 'censoring' these discussion, a delicate topic on a mailing list for people who support cryptography as a way to oppose censorship, have anonymity, etc, why don't we go with simply allowing the users to block members if they need to on their own mail clients. This seems compatable with the philosophies of a cypherpunk(I would guess), 'leave the user in control'.

Maybe we should instead talk about how terrible the suffering of US military murderers is?

paging Nick Econopouly What? You're delusional. Just because I see your fringe ideology for what it is doesn't mean I suddenly support USA Gov or military.

...

On Thu, 2015-06-18 at 19:41 +1000, Zenaan Harkness wrote:

...

http://russia-insider.com/en/hey-obama-what-about-serbias-territoral-integri...

Summary at bottom, summarizing shifting position of "west" over some time: "So let us recount the western position: - It claimed to uphold the sovereignty and territorial integrity of other countries and the inviolability of borders in Europe - However, this did not extend to the sovereignty and the territorial integrity of Federal Yugoslavia which could be trampled at will - Nonetheless, albeit the territorial integrity of Federal Yugoslavia itself wasn’t worth anything, the territorial integrity of its constituent republics seeking independence was holy - Albeit the territorial integrity of the Yugoslav constituent republics of Slovenia, Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina was holy, the territorial integrity of Serbia was not - Albeit Slovenes, Croats and Bosnian Muslims could leave Yugoslavia, Serbs could not leave Croatia and Bosnia - Albeit Serbs could not leave Croatia and Bosnia, Kosovo Albanians could secede from Serbia - Albeit Kosovo Albanians could secede from Serbia, Kosovo Serbs could not secede from Albanian-run Kosovo - Albeit Kosovo could unilaterally secede from Serbia under NATO military control, Crimea could not unilaterally secede from Ukraine under Russian military control

May world be spared hunger, plague and western principles. "