Hi all,
FTP, LTL, PBG!
I have had enough of the state of the United Kingdom - not to mention the
many other states across, around, and inside the globe some call Earth.
Those yet to be formed, and those beginning to form, in the near Earth
environment must not be excluded from our development as a collective.
I would like to be advised of my chances of establishing a United Kingdoms
organisation, tasked with maintaining human endeavours appropriately,
distinctly and in conjunction, with only a 100% agreement allowing the
exclusion of an artifact or ideal from the knowledge-base we share.
I'm really eager to outpace the UK general elections, any ideas around what
can be done to inch towards the above much appreciated!
Sincerely,
and some love,
Gaz/schmooster/Gareth
On 3 May 2017 20:00,
That's some good bit o' history. I was really referring to the level of existing order needed to create *more* levels of order.
E.g "create tech to fly to Mars" and stuff?
I don't think it's possible to argue with that.
Humans have no problems organising themselves to create technology.
Never have.
But can humans organise themselves to stop collectively dominating
the individual when the individuals harms no one else and damages no
property?
History tells us the answer to this question is generally "no, humans
will almost always collectively blame externals for any and every
perceived problem".
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Message: 2
Date: Wed, 3 May 2017 10:40:49 +1000
From: Zenaan Harkness
How does anarchy provide the high-level of organization needed to produce a car?
Humans have this funny habit of organising themselves, through conversation into action, to meet actual needs or desires. "Social animals" and all..
Seriously, the problem is not, has never been and never will be, lack of self-interest motivation to create trinkets and "wealth", sadly.
Yet, they haven't "self-organized" to come together and FIX the problem in their own self-interest, have they? So there either is an error in the analysis or there is some EXISTENTIALLY OTHER force that prevents it that is not of this world --otherwise they would come together and knock it down. But because of it's other-dimensional nature, it is completley "invisibile" to them or unfamiliar, and don't know how to approach the problem.
Yes - notwithstanding ones preferred conception of the problem, or
the source of the problem, what's an approach to tackling that which
we struggle to put into words and apparently affects "most people"?
For starters, can we identify attributes/experiences on a personal
level which verify or point to, this problem? I'm thinking confront -
when one is intercepted by police for something trivial like driving
9km/hr over "the speed limit", and one decides to boldly speak to
said police and firmly put them in their immoral place (in the
conversation that is) - one can tend to experience certain
physiological twitches, gut-based electricity flows, and or a mild
heat rising through the spine.
This, and an endless litany of examples I'm sure you could come up
with, is adequately described by the term "confront".
So when the individual is confronted, something is "going down" to
use a colloquialism.
Confront is therefore an actual identifier for "many things that
could take books to describe".
But, rather than spend books so describing and dissecting, can we
take this confront, and do something useful with it?
The journey of life, one's 'choices' and pathway through life are a
very personal thing of course, but we have a fundamental collective
problem:
Most people want to not confront the bully, and are not aware
that a little bit of individual action, done by many at a
collective level, can shift "the problems instituted by our system/
The State etc" in very good ways.
And as a side benefit, walking head first (but calmly) into those
little confronts where really, truth ought be spoken to power,
often leads to really enjoyable electrical flows and sensations in
the body which may commonly be associated with the words happiness,
joy, satisfaction and a deep and abiding peace and comfort.
In this time of the bully running rampant (police, taxation, forced
medical procedures, courts/legal bullying, etc) the opportunities for
personal growth and personal discovery are truly abundant.
:)
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Message: 3
Date: Tue, 2 May 2017 21:32:56 -0400
From: Steve Kinney
But I like the sentiment. I think the problem is more than the State. It's the pathetic infrastructure that would be an eyesore for centuries.
Bear in mind that the "State" is a model of governance, not a synonym for governance. It is a failed model, as witness the Anthropocene Era's mass extinction even in progress and the pending human population crash.
[ ... ]
The solution, then, is a META-state. A system of order bigger and better than the State.
Given that hierarchal power structures enabled and enforced by the
State are the major cause of the greatest collective problems faced by
the human race, the solution to the greatest collective problems faced
by the human race is a bigger more powerful State!
The logic behind this is self evident and inescapable.
:o)
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Message: 4
Date: Tue, 2 May 2017 19:15:53 -0700
From: Douglas Lucas
That's some good bit o' history. It was you who asked the question "Without a State, would we have electronics? Radio?"
Yes and I was being serious. I hadn't encounted that history before.
I was really referring to the level of existing order needed to create *more* levels of order. That sounds like gobbledygook to me. What do you mean by this? What is a "level of order"?
It's not gobbledygook at all. Just as single-cellular life gave rise to multi-cellular life, a new LEVEL of order was made beyond the cell. In this sense, you could say all the problems that we've been having with "the State" are birthing pains bringing about the solutions to solve this endless conflict at the current level. Einstein was credited with saying "You can't solve the existing problems at the same level which created them" (or something like that). It could surmised that no amount of "self-oganization" could create that transformation seen in biology -- it had to be a GOVERNOR of some kind. By which I intimate that leadership, with a greater view of it all, can generate better, meaningful, and virtuous levels of order and that it HAD to happen at some point in the past, in order to give rise to the mammalian life which we cherish..
And why do you (apparently) think that government is somehow necessary (or even desireable) to act as a driver of technology. I think the opposite is true.
It's not that government is the driver, it is simply a large force that can assemble huge amounts of resources and human effort to solve problems. You would never get equivalent levels of order in an anarchic situation. It would take some extreme urgency bording on panic to assemble such forces (because anarchists don't want to join someone else's causes, right?).
I don't think it's possible to argue with that. Until we actually UNDERSTAND what you meant, how can someone argue?
But I like the sentiment. I think the problem is more than the State.
What problem?
The problem that is often simply labled "the State."
\0x
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Message: 7
Date: Wed, 3 May 2017 13:29:35 +0000
From: "\\0xDynamite"
Yet, they haven't "self-organized" to come together and FIX the problem in their own self-interest, have they? So there either is an error in the analysis or there is some EXISTENTIALLY OTHER force that prevents it that is not of this world --otherwise they would come together and knock it down. But because of it's other-dimensional nature, it is completley "invisibile" to them or unfamiliar, and don't know how to approach the problem.
Yes - notwithstanding ones preferred conception of the problem, or the source of the problem, what's an approach to tackling that which we struggle to put into words and apparently affects "most people"?
For starters, can we identify attributes/experiences on a personal level which verify or point to, this problem? I'm thinking confront - when one is intercepted by police for something trivial like driving 9km/hr over "the speed limit", and one decides to boldly speak to said police and firmly put them in their immoral place (in the conversation that is) - one can tend to experience certain physiological twitches, gut-based electricity flows, and or a mild heat rising through the spine.
The solution to this challenge is to be a better Statist than they
are. That is, to know your law better, which (fortunately becuase of
the IQ level of most cops) isn't that hard. Once you know your rigths
and go through the hard knocks of jail time, you start to rise above
it. That's how and why I've written HACK THE LAW.
\0x
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Message: 8
Date: Wed, 3 May 2017 15:11:32 +0000
From: "\\0xDynamite"
The solution, then, is a META-state. A system of order bigger and better than the State.
Yes. How could we have missed such an obvious solution.
Easy tiger. Hopefully, the other posts clarify. Obviously the State sucks, but it sucks because of THE PEOPLE, don't forget that. And what is going to remain after the fall of the State? THE PEOPLE.
What's needed is a META-STATE. with JESUS AS PRESIDENT and the raving lunatic marko dynamite as VICE-PRESIDENT.
Yer getting a little fringe here. Take a chill pill, Dave.
And no, there's no need for 'congress' cause the 'laws' have all already been written and they are in THE BIBLE.
You're on a roll!
Last but not leat, the META-STATE will provide FREE homeopatic mierdicine.
Please, holistic medicine is already (relatively) FREE (because of the
benefits it provides to all). Holistically! Sing with me.
\0x
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Message: 9
Date: Wed, 03 May 2017 11:57:02 -0400
From: Joshua