Toad has encouraged publication of any other subpoenas in the Toto-assassination case, and we've asked for info on any other solicitations by the MIBs to list subscribers, or others, such as that to Alan Greenspan posted here. It's understandable that anyone served or solicited might want to keep that private, upon legal advice, or for self-protection. However, it'd be a help to those of us awaiting the slug, or wanting to aid and abet the MIB-fed fictional conspiracy, to know what is happening. For example, the dates of contact, when the documents were served and the means used, what was asked for, or anything that might be shared without necessarily identifying who was contacted. Anon to the list or to jya if preferred. For example, Alcatraz's subpoena was dated October 9, for a GJ session on November 10. We don't know when the subpoena was served or how. And how those dates and compare to those of Huntsville's, though in latter case we've been told the subpoena came with two MIBs. JYA'd like to be in Tacoma when the WWA GJ is MIB imaginary totostimony, either in response to character-assassinatory subpoena or by idly hanging out with attention-seeking gov assassination-groupies, so some times and dates would be helpful if different from November 10. Bee in the bonnet: A few days before CJ's arrest warrant was issued the DoJ put out a study on the "Shared Traits of Potential Assassins:" http://jya.com/ojp80598.htm The traits: * To achieve notoriety or fame. * To bring attention to a personal or public problem. * To avenge a perceived wrong; to retaliate for a perceived injury. * To end personal pain; to be removed from society; to be killed. * To save the country or the world; to fix a world problem. * To develop a special relationship with the target. * To make money. * To bring about political change. What? The ambitious MIB job description mirrors the Cypherpunk agenda? The PR on the report goes on: The report outlines how law enforcement agencies can establish programs and systems to identify and prevent persons with the means and interest to attack a protected person. The guide may also assist law enforcement and security agencies responsible for investigating and preventing other kinds of targeted violence, such as stalking, domestic violence or workplace violence. The report takes law enforcement agencies through the entire threat assessment process, from designing a protective intelligence program to investigating suspicious persons to closing a case. Protective intelligence programs are based on the idea that the risk of violence is minimized if persons with the interest, capacity and willingness to mount an attack can be identified and rendered harmless before they approach a protected person. To obtain a copy of "Protective Intelligence and Threat Assessment Investigations" (NCJ 170612, 59 pp.), contact the National Criminal Justice Reference Service at 800-851-3420. Amazing coincidence, this matching of Justice with the Cypherpunk missions. MIB aiding and abetting MIB.
Things to say when the subpoena comes. 1. "My mental and or physical condition makes it impossible for me to travel to the location stated in the subpoena." 2. "My religious belief (or philosophy fulfilling the same role in my life that religion fulfills in the lives of believers) prevents me from telling the truth under compulsion. 3. "I suffer from a recognized social/affective disorder that prevents me from obeying government orders." 4. "If administered an oath, I will refuse to promise to tell the truth but will instead reserve the right to lie." 5. "I will have left the jurisdiction prior to my proposed testimony date so you can fuck yourselves." 6. "I have no knowledge of anything mentioned in the subpoena." 7. "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction." 8. "As a committed believer in the independent rights of jurors, I intend to inform any Grand or Petit juries that I encounter of their right to judge the law, the facts, and the validity of all government actions." 9. "I do not posses any government-issued photo ID and thus cannot travel to the location stated in the subpoena. DCF
At 01:15 PM 10/26/98 -0500, Duncan Frissell wrote:
9. "I do not posses any government-issued photo ID and thus cannot travel to the location stated in the subpoena.
ROTFLMAO... This last one is too funny to not use. I don't have a subpoena, but I can just see myself writing back explaining this and requesting assistance with a plane flight to solve this problem. -- Robert Costner Phone: (770) 512-8746 Electronic Frontiers Georgia mailto:pooh@efga.org http://www.efga.org/ run PGP 5.0 for my public key
At 02:43 PM 10/26/98 -0400, Robert A. Costner wrote:
At 01:15 PM 10/26/98 -0500, Duncan Frissell wrote:
9. "I do not posses any government-issued photo ID and thus cannot travel to the location stated in the subpoena.
ROTFLMAO...
This last one is too funny to not use. I don't have a subpoena, but I can just see myself writing back explaining this and requesting assistance with a plane flight to solve this problem.
I was glad I thought that one up yesterday. It can be used in all sorts of cases from future conscription notices to private travel demands that one wishes to avoid. Note that short of arrest, it is difficult for anyone else to force you to have a government issued photo ID in your possession. You can take all your stuff and Fedex it to your Swiss lawyer (or some friend) telling him to not give it to you for some period of time. You can burn your ID, throw it away, and not apply for replacements. There currently exists no means of applying for ID on your behalf if you don't do it (save for kids and those in custody). The beauty is that the authorities have created this requirement and it can be used against them. Previous techniques such as claiming lack of money can be satisfied with government travel tickets but ID requirements will be a tougher nut to crack. Maybe they'll tell you to take Amtrak or the Grey Dog. DCF
At 8:36 AM -0800 10/27/98, Duncan Frissell wrote:
The beauty is that the authorities have created this requirement and it can be used against them. Previous techniques such as claiming lack of money can be satisfied with government travel tickets but ID requirements will be a tougher nut to crack. Maybe they'll tell you to take Amtrak or the Grey Dog.
Here on the West Coast, they could perhaps suggest one take the Green Tortoise, a hippie-type bus that runs up and down the coast. However, one might then set off the drug-sniffing detectors/dogs at the courthouse. Duncan gave us an interesting list, but I suspect at least half of them would result in the judge saying, "Fine. Think about in your cell. I find you in contempt." I have a couple of questions about the subpoena process, though: * Is travel paid for? How? By spending hours completing forms in quadruplicate, or do they just cut a check for some per diem sort of payment? * What if one has pressing engagements? (Travel out of the country, an anniversary party, washing the dog?) * What if one shows up with no records and claims not to have them? * What about lawyer expenses? I know the line about "If you cannot afford one, one will be appointed for you," but I've never understood what test of "afford" is being used. If called before a grand jury, will they pay for a lawyer? (E.g., if I decide I can't "afford" to pay some shyster to interpret their legalese into ordinary English.) (I asssume there is some nonsense about indigence, but can they force someone to prove he has no money? What if he money, but he needs that $5000 for school tuition more than he needs to give it to Johnny Cockroach for a day's worth of shystering?) More soberly, this kind of subpoena could well nuke the Cypherpunks list, even the distributed node instance. If Igor Chudov, Lance Cottrell, and Jim Choate all have to fly to Seattle and face scrutiny, implied threats, and possible jail time for failing to jump when the Feds say jump, they may decide to stop acting as Fed magnets. Oh, and what if one shows up at the Federal Courthouse without any I.D.? As there are no mandatory I.D. laws, what can they do? (I had planned to test this one the last time I almost got called for jury duty. My planned retort was to be, "But I'm not driving a car here in the courthouse, so why would I need a driver's license? And, last I checked, this is still the United States, so why would I need a passport?") "I'm Tim May, and you can believe it or not. Maybe I'm a bum hired by Tim for a bottle of Ripple, maybe I'm some other Tim, maybe I'm an astrally projected Tim. Take your pick." --Tim May Y2K: A good chance to reformat America's hard drive and empty the trash. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments.
We've received word of a third Grand Jury subpoena in CJ's case. With a request to not publicize the person and information sought. Yep, we tried to prize it loose, citing Gilmore's model, but no go. Word from that person is that the trial is expected to begin in mid-November, which could indicate that CJ's evaluation will be completed shortly. Interest in attending is picking up. We've had requests to keep several folks informed on dates of court activity. All we got so far is the Nov 10 date on John Gilmore's Grand Jury subpoena and the mid-Nov trial start. So any info is most welcome. BTW, has anyone seen news reports on CJ's case other than those of Declan? If so, we'd like pointers or copies.
Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
* What about lawyer expenses? I know the line about "If you cannot afford one, one will be appointed for you," but I've never understood what test of "afford" is being used. If called before a grand jury, will they pay for a lawyer? (E.g., if I decide I can't "afford" to pay some shyster to interpret their legalese into ordinary English.) (I assume there is some nonsense about indigence, but can they force someone to prove he has no money? What if he money, but he needs that $5000 for school tuition more than he needs to give it to Johnny Cockroach for a day's worth of shystering?)
Tim, It is my understanding, from my brother in law (who is a practicing attorney in Pennsylvania) and from my sister's participation in a case in Texas that one does not have the right to have legal counsel present at a Grand Jury session. -- -------------------------------------------------- Jon 'tex' Boone Senior Network Engineer ISC Networking University of Pennsylvania tex@isc.upenn.edu (215) 898-2477
At 3:57 AM -0800 10/28/98, Jon 'tex' Boone wrote:
Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
* What about lawyer expenses? I know the line about "If you cannot afford one, one will be appointed for you," but I've never understood what test of "afford" is being used. If called before a grand jury, will they pay for a lawyer? (E.g., if I decide I can't "afford" to pay some shyster to interpret their legalese into ordinary English.) (I assume there is some nonsense about indigence, but can they force someone to prove he has no money? What if he money, but he needs that $5000 for school tuition more than he needs to give it to Johnny Cockroach for a day's worth of shystering?)
Tim,
It is my understanding, from my brother in law (who is a practicing attorney in Pennsylvania) and from my sister's participation in a case in Texas that one does not have the right to have legal counsel present at a Grand Jury session.
Yes, yes, yes, I know this. (Had I not known it before, I would have after the Monicagate matter.) However, one is still at risk in grand jury matters, and attorneys are usually used to advise. Also, one can leave the grand jury room to consult with an attorney. Too bad this is so, but nearly everyone who receives a subpoena hires an attorney to advise on risks, consequences, etc. Anyone who gets sucked into the Great Cypherpunks Conspiracy Trial probably ought to have competent legal counsel. (I received a subpoena from one of my neighbors, and it was written in legalese that I had no way of understanding without a lawyer. And I always thought "Deuces take 'em" was a version of poker.) --Tim May Y2K: A good chance to reformat America's hard drive and empty the trash. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments.
[Misspelled subject corrected - my initial fault, SSM.] Tim points out the risks of Grand Jury appearance and need for legal counsel outside the hearing. We'll add that it's fairly common to use Grand Jury testimony to ensnare a target - and not only Bill - who thinks there's not much to worry about based on the friendly strokes beforehand by velvet-gloved agents. It's the false testimony, perjury, that sinks the hook. Especially when hit with unexpected questions about matters for which no preparation has been made, those usually completely unlike what the friendly agents suggested was the main reason for politely asking for cooperation (not telling what they already knew the target knows and will try to hide). Presumably an attorney would prepare for this, but not all, especially if time is limited and the target does not think there's any need to fully brief counsel (even dare to fancy lawyers aint so smart). A prime suspect in the African Embassy bombings, US citizen Wadi el Hage, was induced to come up to NYC from Texas in this fashion, testified before the GJ and was immediately arrested for giving false testimony to questions ranging over several years of his experiences and prior statements to the FBI. The Q&A can be seen at: http://jya.com/usa-v-hage+3.htm Note that while all the bombers are charged with murder, el Hage is multiply-charged with perjury. Note also that all the suspects used a variety of aliases, so the Feds allege, just like CJ is mani-nymed in Gilmore's subpoena. Also, in this case at least two of the four suspects have recently been isolated from outside contact, on the pretext that they may communicate orders to "terrorists," but, more probably because they are cooperating with prosecutors who do not want the lovely relationship to be interrupted by outsiders. Or the Feds want to send a signal that that is the case to spook those being sought, and the two not cooperating. As Jim Choate noted, the implied threat of hellish treatment if you don't cooperate produces heebie-jeebies and overhwhelming desire to get your life back to normal everyday, familiar panic. And if you're in jail nursed by MIB and strangers in stripes, such a threat erodes what's left of your iron discipline to never, ever squeal on comrades. NY Times front-paged yesterday the controversy over prosecutors offering leniency for testifying against cohorts. During the summer an appeals panel declared such practice be bribery prohibited under a 50-year-old law and ruled that it is illegal. Within hours a higher court overruled the panel, and the issue is expected to go to the Supremes. Even so, the panel made some indelible remarks about prosecutors not being above the law: In their densely worded opinion, the panel examined precedents as far back as the Magna Carta, which imposed limits on the exercise of sovereign power. The law prohibiting "whoever" from offering a witness anything of value in exchange for testimony should apply, the judges said, to prosecutors as well as to everyone else. "Decency, security and liberty alike," the panel said, "demand that Government officials shall be subject to the same rules of conduct that are commands to the citizen." As expected, prosecutors were furious at the panel's decision, as were many judges, claiming that the practice was hundreds of years old and convictions could not be obtained without it. One judge said the decision was "amazingly unsound, not to mention nonsensical." The Times notes that the Miranda decision got the same reception, and was fought fiercely by the status quo investors in the justice system. It's a good article for preparing to meet the good and bad MIB trolling for all too trusting, easily spooked rubes, a/k/a terrorists, a/k/a assassins. In answer to a query about the 3rd subpoena recipient: it's not to a CDR or anon remailer operator.
At 11:28 AM -0800 10/28/98, John Young wrote:
Note also that all the suspects used a variety of aliases, so the Feds allege, just like CJ is mani-nymed in Gilmore's subpoena.
And the requests for "help" (Jeff Gordon to the Cypherpunks list), help with finding out who Toto communicated with, help with what his messages meant...well, it looks to me like a conspiracy case is being made. (The nexus in Washington, near Bell, and the nexus with AP, is indicative.) The first thing I did when I heard about the latest case, that of Toto, was to purge any private mail messages between myself and Toto or any of his alleged nyms. (My backups may have old messages, but I've been trying to find them all and destroy or recopy them sans the Toto messages.) I advise any of you with links to the idea of anonymous murders and AP to do the same. Soon. --Tim May Y2K: A good chance to reformat America's hard drive and empty the trash. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments.
At 12:23 PM 10/28/98 -0800, Tim May wrote:
I advise any of you with links to the idea of anonymous murders and AP to do the same. Soon.
Actually I was thinking of trying to get ahold of Jim Bell and get permission to publish Assassination Politics in Hardback along with other info. -- Robert Costner Phone: (770) 512-8746 Electronic Frontiers Georgia mailto:pooh@efga.org http://www.efga.org/ run PGP 5.0 for my public key
Date sent: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 22:24:49 -0500 From: Frederick Burroughs <riburr@shentel.net> To: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@ns.minder.net> Subject: Re: MIB Subpoenas Send reply to: Frederick Burroughs <riburr@shentel.net>
Tim May wrote:
I advise any of you with links to the idea of anonymous murders and AP to do the same. Soon.
Fleeing the tidal(thoughtcrime)wave.
Jeff Gordon's appearance on this list coincided with the apearance of a yellow streak down Tim's back. Graham-John Bullers edmc.net ab756@freenet.toronto.on.ca moderator of alt.2600.moderated http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html
participants (9)
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Anonymous -
Duncan Frissell -
Frederick Burroughs -
John Young -
Jon 'tex' Boone -
real＠freenet.edmonton.ab.ca -
Robert A. Costner -
Soren -
Tim May