At 11:23 am -0500 on 11/13/97, Tim May wrote:
:-). Actually, Tim, I don't think it's dangerous, at least to me personally, and to anyone else on this list, for that matter. What I said was, you're counterproductive to your own cause (you could become a poster for statism, as I said before), and, if you continued to directly threaten the lives of people who had the power to hurt you, in public, with direct
You have now repeated this "Tim has directly threatened the life of a federal judge" charge several times.
This is false.
Well, I certainly used two forms of the word 'direct', right there in black and white, didn't I? And, having just watched Nat Hentoff say on TV that a threat would be something where you specified the time and place of some kind of violence against a person, maybe your saying something like,
But in many ways, this is good news. The war is coming faster than I thought.
The judge in this case has committed a capital crime.
was *not* a threat against a judge? Right, Tim, if you say so. I expect that, in the legal, Hentoff sense, it's not a threat. After all, you didn't specify a date and time, and you didn't even say you, personally, were going to do anything at all. However, it's probably more than enough reason for someone with too may kevlar coats back in the office closet to trump something up and force a confrontation with you, just like they did with Bell. Well, no. Bell's arrest was just a byproduct of his car's siezure, like they said in the papers, wasn't it? Nonetheless, it's well within conception that, since everyone's breaking the law somehow, that something you're doing or have done would be used to cause a percipitating event, which you yourself say you would respond to with force. Astoundingly, it also seems like you're *trying* to create a confrontation. You seem to dare to them to do something so that you can meet them at the door, Mossberg in hand. "Please don't throw me in that briar patch", in other words. For instance, just last night, you said,
And the rumors are mounting about a series of possible raids around the holidays this Thanksgiving Day. The FBI has acknowledge the fax sent out as legitimate.
While militia members and Cypherpunks may not be able to withstand a full out war for very long, the mere willingness to defend oneself can itself act as a deterrent. This is basic game theory, basic strategy.
It sounds an awful lot like Fort Apache, Corrolitos, to me, Tim.
You claim I am doing "the cause" a disservice.
Well, your "cause", whatever it is, certainly. I'm not sure, for instance, that holing yourself up behind a steel-reinforced door with lots of fun firepower is doing much for the spread of strong cryptography, I'll grant you that...
I claim you are spreading misinformation and trumping up a charge which you must hope is being read by the Feds.
Right. And when Thanksgiving day comes, Tim, and the no-knock doesn't happen, or, even more interesting, nothing happens anywhere on Thanksgiving day, what are you going to say about my "misinformation" attack, then? That it "failed"? Remarkable. You win no matter what, right? Prove to me that there is no conspiracy? Or flying saucers, or whatever else? :-). Frankly, Tim, I don't think the Feds really care about you, or anything you've done, to date. Or at least they wouldn't, if you weren't, like the forest knight in Monty Python and the Holy Grail, daring them to hack off another limb all the time. It seems to me that, before this little interchange we've been in, where someone finally stood up and said that the emperor had no clothes (at least as far as kevlar outerware and the global conspiracy to destroy the American Way is concerned) you would have continued to try to bait the federales, imaginary or not, with inflamatory trolls like those above, apparently in the hope that you could force a showdown with them. Hell, maybe you'll actually make it happen, someday. I guess I won't be surprised when it does. Or particularly care, even, given your vitriolic reception the mirror in your face.
You sicken me.
Um, well... Take a pill, maybe? Cheers, Bob Hettinga ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/ Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- At 02:11 PM 11/13/97 -0500, Robert Hettinga wrote:
But in many ways, this is good news. The war is coming faster than I thought.
The judge in this case has committed a capital crime.
was *not* a threat against a judge?
Right, Tim, if you say so.
The phrase "capital crime" (literaly "head crime") just means "worst crime". It does not imply punishment. Punishment for capital crimes varies with time and place. Saying someone is guilty of an infamous crime is not a death threat. It's not even a death threat to say, "I think X should be arrested, tried by a court, and gassed." You are merely expressing opinions about criminal guilt and perhaps capital punishment but you are not making a threat. "Hey, hey, LBJ. How many kids did you kill today?" Tim was *not* threatening to set up his own court and try anyone himself and carry out a punishment. "You shall receive more than you deserve. You shall receive justice."
You sicken me.
Um, well... Take a pill, maybe?
Cheers, Bob Hettinga
Bob, Tim's is just a different approach. It shouldn't sicken you. Tim and I are members of the same birth cohort and I think you are a little bit younger but it seems to me that he has absorbed the major message of modern education better. You know -- Multi Culturalism. Or as Mao said "let a thousand flowers bloom". Tim's a very Multi Culti guy. Individuation. Big time. Micro Cultures. He believes in letting other people explore the rich diversity of their lives and experiences as long as they let him do the same. He's trying to make sure that everyone is aware that Multi Culturalism is *real*. Too many proponents of same treat it as some bland mush. Tim is keeping them aware of the spice. Or as my grandfather said "It doesn't matter what your race, creed or color is. You can still be a son of a bitch." True equality requires true liberty. DCF -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0 Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBNGw/MoVO4r4sgSPhAQHChwP/SfIQzxtQIfQEcKP2gXkPe1s5tQqGtViC +vrcdrU8PeAZuVL27BKa0tNiDn8i0jV0iDO0UXeiaLe++8Cympz+l2Y/HRoJAkw3 Js4MGNmUi0cYKnZFbqMUBRbLSmbFJz1UMBqUPkAHHxHnwwvpDVnkqjoPj+SYcJw+ AqfrWO2s0PQ= =0gH9 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
At 7:08 am -0500 on 11/14/97, frissell@panix.com wrote:
But in many ways, this is good news. The war is coming faster than I thought.
The judge in this case has committed a capital crime.
was *not* a threat against a judge?
Right, Tim, if you say so.
The phrase "capital crime" (literaly "head crime") just means "worst crime". It does not imply punishment. Punishment for capital crimes varies with time and place. Saying someone is guilty of an infamous crime is not a death threat. It's not even a death threat to say, "I think X should be arrested, tried by a court, and gassed." You are merely expressing opinions about criminal guilt and perhaps capital punishment but you are not making a threat.
C'mon, Duncan, you know you're equivocating here, and you know better. Tim says we're going to war. He says that a judge commits a capital crime, by whatever definition he, or you, choose to use. Most people, and it doesn't have to be you, or me, or even Tim himself, would call that a threat, and, in the above case, against a judge. "Most people" especially includes those folks with aptly-named "criminal justice" degrees, too much military hardware and not enough understanding of rhetorical nuance. *That's* the kind of threat Tim made, and the kind of people who will interpret it. At this point, I guess, it's moot. Tim can bay at the moon all he wants. It is, after all, a free country. "Consider it evolution in action", as Tim's favorite Pournelle quote goes. But, up until he made that remark, I still had some respect for him. What he said there was the breaking branch which turned loose this entire landslide of disrepect for him on my part. As far as I was concerned, he crossed the border into loonyland, and I decided to call him it. "Call a spade a spade." Or a loon a loon. Now, frankly, Tim still says stuff here worth reading, but I'm finding, more and more, that other people say the same things I used to hear him say, and they say it much better. At the moment, I expect, someday, to put him in my own killfile, just like Chrispin, or Vulis, or Detweiller/Nuri, or even poor Phill Hallam, who can't help himself ;-), just to keep me from going off on him like I did this time. I'll try to restrain myself a little bit better in the meantime.
Tim was *not* threatening to set up his own court and try anyone himself and carry out a punishment.
No, he said that war was coming, and that a sitting judge had committed a capital crime. You figure it out.
You sicken me.
Um, well... Take a pill, maybe?
Cheers, Bob Hettinga
Bob, Tim's is just a different approach. It shouldn't sicken you.
Watch your attributions, there, Duncan. Tim's the one who needs to take a pill, not me. I'm fine. I *was* mildly apoplectic, but I feel *much* better, now. :-).
Tim and I are members of the same birth cohort and I think you are a little bit younger but it seems to me that he has absorbed the major message of modern education better. You know -- Multi Culturalism. Or as Mao said "let a thousand flowers bloom". Tim's a very Multi Culti guy. Individuation. Big time. Micro Cultures. He believes in letting other people explore the rich diversity of their lives and experiences as long as they let him do the same. He's trying to make sure that everyone is aware that Multi Culturalism is *real*. Too many proponents of same treat it as some bland mush. Tim is keeping them aware of the spice.
Or as my grandfather said "It doesn't matter what your race, creed or color is. You can still be a son of a bitch." True equality requires true liberty.
I agree with everything you said there, Duncan. All of it. Except the part where Tim, metaphorically or not, calmly goes out into the street one nice afternoon and throws rocks at cop cars to get their attention about how fascist they all are. That's not revolution. It's the act of a loon. Cheers, Bob Hettinga ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/ Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>
Robert Hettinga, leaping logical chasms with a single bound, wrote:
At 7:08 am -0500 on 11/14/97, frissell@panix.com wrote:
The phrase "capital crime" (literaly "head crime") just means "worst crime". It does not imply punishment. Punishment for capital crimes varies with time and place. Saying someone is guilty of an infamous crime is not a death threat. It's not even a death threat to say, "I think X should be arrested, tried by a court, and gassed." You are merely expressing opinions about criminal guilt and perhaps capital punishment but you are not making a threat.
Tim says we're going to war. He says that a judge commits a capital crime, by whatever definition he, or you, choose to use. Most people, and it doesn't have to be you, or me, or even Tim himself, would call that a threat, and, in the above case, against a judge.
Get real, begins-with-a-'b'-ends-with-a-'b'. Every President in recent history has committed capital crimes. Pointing that out can hardly be considered some kind of threat, since we all know that they have always done so, and will continue to do so, with impunity. A 'threat' would be to imply that anyone assassinating a judge or a President would get to sleep with Jody Foster. The mainstream press is pushing the smoking-gun confirmation of Tricky Dicky Nixy as a multiple-felon as "News" <har-har-snicker-snicker>. The millions of people who recognized his treason against the nation, despite the lies of our politicians and press, could hardly be seen as 'threatening' ElTrickster, since I don't know anyone who thought he was worth wasting a bullet on. As a matter of fact, I believe that a Peephole's Kourt in Kalifornia tried Tricky Dicky, found him guilty, and sentenced him to live the rest of his life as himself. (Cruel and unusual punishment?) TruthMonger
participants (4)
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frissell＠panix.com -
Robert Hettinga -
TruthMonger -
William H. Geiger III