Tim writes:

Most of my comments will be based on the material Ram Cromwell writes:

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First let me explain something to people who don't know. The extropians list has a legal arbitration system to help keep down flames. We have rules against bringing verbal assaults into heated debates so that if you feel someone is insulting you, you may 'press charges'. If evidence is presented, the person usually gets a warning. 3 warnings and your posting privileges get revoked for a period between 24-72 hours to allow a 'cool down' period on the list. This was implemented out of neccessity because the list was averaging between 150 to 300 messages a day with most of those coming from only a handful of people.

Ironically, I found that the legal code *caused* many flames, for various reasons. This is my interpretation, and I "assign credit" (in genetic programming terms) for dozens of flames between various parties to the existence of a legal code that encouraged/facillitated the filing of charges and countercharges, the issuance of warnings and other judgements, and the seemingly endless debate about all of these issues, as well as of the charges.

All true, there was a "shakeout" in the legal system which caused huge debates over the fairness and objectivity of it. Everything has settled down since the commercialization of the list and since the big players have left.

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A common way of resolving a standoff debate on the Extropians list is to put your money where your mouth is -- a bet. This causes someone to get off their lazy ass and go look up the citation and present it

With due respect for Ray here, this worked better in theory than in practice. The issuance of a challenge typically resulted in each side firing new volleys of charges, of clarifications, and of boring public debate about the terms, judgement criteria, who would hold the money, etc. Ad nauseum. I recall only one fairly positive example: some bet

I agree that it worked better in theory than in practice, but it did seem to have the effect of shutting down a 'is so, is not, is so!, is not!' flame. For instance, Perry would often get involved in a discussion where each side was claiming a statistic and firmly standing by it without offering a reference. Perry would often end a thread like this by betting a huge sum of money that he was right. It seemed to me, that it often quieted the other person down. The claims might not have been resolved (because no one took up the bet), but the endless standoff of counter claims would end. Besides bets, there was Derek Zahn's accountability society which had one positive result and almost none of the negative flamage that bets had.

By the way, so far as I am aware, *nobody* has ever been kicked off the Cypherpunks list. Not even Detweiler, who asked to be removed last Novemeber or so, as he was entering his terminal phase.

The disadvantage of this is that since your list software has no filtering capability, I must deal with a huge flood of messages everyday that Detweiler generates. For a simple list like majordomo, I think deleting trouble makers is a good short term solution.

There may be a lesson here. A formal legal code encourages "law hacking" by those with an axe to grind. A formal system which attempts to cover all possibilities encourages incompleteness, loopholes. (This is often analyzed as being the result of Goedel's Theorem, which I suppose it is in an informal sense :-}.)

An interesting speculation. Legal systems are, after all, pretty close to being 'formal systems' Nobody ever said a legal system had to be consistent though. ;-)

I like the Cypherpunks system a lot better. Instead of bogging down in claims, charges, formal bets, adjudication, appeals, etc., there are relatively few if any rules. Somehow the turkeys end up leaving.

With much heat and light generated in the meantime which is fine for some people, but irritating to others. Keeping in mind Coase's Theorem and Spontaneous Order, Harry and I are going beyond the idea of PPLs by attempting to create list software which allows 'personal justice', filtering, reputations, etc. We personally believe that the whitewater of noise which is out there now will become a tsunami when Joe Sixpack gets his 'entitled' account. The only way to defend yourself from this assault in cyberspace will be intelligent communications software. -Ray