Web TV with 128b exported

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David Honig

17 Dec 2003 17 Dec '03

11:17 p.m.

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/981005/ca_microso_1.html MOUNTAIN VIEW, Calif., Oct. 5 /PRNewswire/ -- Microsoft Corp.'s (Nasdaq: MSFT - news) WebTV Networks today announced it is the first U.S. company to obtain government approval to export nonkey recovery-based 128-bit-strength encryption for general commercial use. WebTV Networks pioneered low-cost access to the Internet, e-mail, financial services and electronic shopping through a television set and a standard phone line. The WebTV(TM) Network service, combined with the WebTV-based Internet terminals and receivers, is the first communications system permitted by the U.S. government to provide strong encryption for general use by non-U.S. citizens in Japan and the United Kingdom. Such strong encryption allows Japanese and United Kingdom subscribers of WebTV to communicate through the WebTV Network (both within national borders and internationally) without fear of interception by unauthorized parties. etc...

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SDN

17 Dec 17 Dec

11:17 p.m.

On Tue, Oct 06, 1998 at 04:32:07PM -0500, William H. Geiger III wrote:

...

In <3.0.5.32.19981006110801.0088a430@m7.sprynet.com>, on 10/06/98 at 11:08 AM, David Honig said:

...
http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/981005/ca_microso_1.html

...
MOUNTAIN VIEW, Calif., Oct. 5 /PRNewswire/ -- Microsoft Corp.'s (Nasdaq: MSFT - news) WebTV Networks today announced it is the first U.S. company to obtain government approval to export nonkey recovery-based 128-bit-strength encryption for general commercial use. WebTV Networks pioneered low-cost access to the Internet, e-mail, financial services and electronic shopping through a television set and a standard phone line.

...
The WebTV(TM) Network service, combined with the WebTV-based Internet terminals and receivers, is the first communications system permitted by the U.S. government to provide strong encryption for general use by non-U.S. citizens in Japan and the United Kingdom. Such strong encryption allows Japanese and United Kingdom subscribers of WebTV to communicate through the WebTV Network (both within national borders and internationally) without fear of interception by unauthorized parties.

I have my doubts on this. I find it highly unlikely that the FEDs would approve this without some form of GAK built in even if it is not in the form of "key recovery".

It's probably a lot closer to the "private doorbell" scenario. The only thing that a WebTV unit will communicate with is the WebTV service (or the Japanese variant thereof). Since all traffic goes through a point that will likely cooperate with law enforcement (and has remote control of the boxes, too.), this doesn't represent much of a loosening in the export controls. It's probably as good as or better than any other Microsoft crypto, though. Jon Leonard

William H. Geiger III

11:17 p.m.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- In <19981006151326.A7421@divcom.slimy.com>, on 10/06/98 at 03:13 PM, SDN said:

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It's probably as good as or better than any other Microsoft crypto, though.

That's not really saying much ... - -- - --------------------------------------------------------------- William H. Geiger III http://www.openpgp.net Geiger Consulting Cooking With Warp 4.0 Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail. OS/2 PGP 5.0 at: http://www.openpgp.net/pgp.html - --------------------------------------------------------------- Tag-O-Matic: OS/2: Windows done RIGHT! -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3a-sha1 Charset: cp850 Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000 iQCVAwUBNhqaVo9Co1n+aLhhAQFxnAP+JTSoJh91kvTr2c6HLinj5fENlvZn7lQV R0LEg4EBDiahlPSjIvWgNdNBJMJnIAPv04Y4g7SvorXTfIl/okT7H7QN0YTGHHnP DkJYMknLxJtNCQ3fOSPpBPcmEA4zwVVq8pJOcmeXqsLCyajqfm7hEM4AIGgDV9vR dH21juYhpXM= =bJkv -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

David Honig

11:17 p.m.

At 04:32 PM 10/6/98 -0500, William H. Geiger III wrote:

...

at 11:08 AM, David Honig said:

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The WebTV(TM) Network service, combined with the WebTV-based Internet terminals and receivers, is the first communications system permitted by the U.S. government to provide strong encryption for general use by non-U.S. citizens in Japan and the United Kingdom. Such strong encryption allows Japanese and United Kingdom subscribers of WebTV to communicate through the WebTV Network (both within national borders and internationally) without fear of interception by unauthorized parties.

I have my doubts on this. I find it highly unlikely that the FEDs would approve this without some form of GAK built in even if it is not in the form of "key recovery".

I'd guess that the Export control puppets know that the Web-TV hubs will be subpoena-able by the US even in these other "sovereign" nations. The WebTV centralized infrastructure makes this easy.

William H. Geiger III

11:17 p.m.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- In <3.0.5.32.19981007090445.008903c0@m7.sprynet.com>, on 10/07/98 at 09:04 AM, David Honig said:

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At 04:32 PM 10/6/98 -0500, William H. Geiger III wrote:

...
at 11:08 AM, David Honig said:

...
The WebTV(TM) Network service, combined with the WebTV-based Internet terminals and receivers, is the first communications system permitted by the U.S. government to provide strong encryption for general use by non-U.S. citizens in Japan and the United Kingdom. Such strong encryption allows Japanese and United Kingdom subscribers of WebTV to communicate through the WebTV Network (both within national borders and internationally) without fear of interception by unauthorized parties.

I have my doubts on this. I find it highly unlikely that the FEDs would approve this without some form of GAK built in even if it is not in the form of "key recovery".

...

I'd guess that the Export control puppets know that the Web-TV hubs will be subpoena-able by the US even in these other "sovereign" nations. The WebTV centralized infrastructure makes this easy.

I have never looked at the WebTV set-up but I am assuming they are running a series of proxy servers which then provide content for the WebTV boxes? Or are they providing an AOL type of thing, with their own proprietary network and gateways to the real world? Exactly what is getting encrypted and what is not in this system? If this is just point to point encryption between the WebTV box & the WebTV hub/proxy/whatever it seems rather worthless IMNSHO. - -- - --------------------------------------------------------------- William H. Geiger III http://www.openpgp.net Geiger Consulting Cooking With Warp 4.0 Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail. OS/2 PGP 5.0 at: http://www.openpgp.net/pgp.html - --------------------------------------------------------------- Tag-O-Matic: Dogs crawl under gates, software crawls under Windows! -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3a-sha1 Charset: cp850 Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000 iQCVAwUBNhuqwo9Co1n+aLhhAQGA8AP/eHyYTMwqVfv07k0nRG3ebWf67Tjw7ObH UEdBwqdf99pJ6HDhcHxz7iqHWT3FHv1B86UXVO2sf8kuZQrSlWOZAxjwZhqQnXTn 7z7RZNe2MEyere8eujTIv4i1pYLKFgFl5vKj3evz5AaILHp8lYl3IASIzbhcP7Dc 8W94T1RhJgI= =TvXZ -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

David Honig

11:17 p.m.

At 02:39 PM 10/7/98 -0500, Steve Bryan wrote:

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David Honig wrote:

...
I'd guess that the Export control puppets know that the Web-TV hubs will be subpoena-able by the US even in these other "sovereign" nations. The WebTV centralized infrastructure makes this easy.

This announcement seems to be getting a lot of this sort of reaction but I don't see quite why the news is greeted with such animosity. If a duly authorized search warrant is required in order to obtain information that represents a potential world of difference from having unrestricted ability to monitor all communications.

Steve Bryan

The announcement would be a lot better if foreigners were "permitted" strong disk encryption; or if foreigners were "permitted" the high grade anonymity that packet routing can provide. Do you think the US would allow strong crypto WebTV for foreigners if the foreigners had secure links to an equivalent, independent, foreign WebTV service whose assets were not readily seized, whose techs were not easily made into Agents, whose officers were not readily kidnappable by the USDoJ, etc. Just think of the cookie recipes the infidels would be circulating.. I really doubt Osama subscribes to WebTV. :-)

Petro

11:17 p.m.

At 2:39 PM -0500 10/7/98, Steve Bryan wrote:

...

David Honig wrote:

...
I'd guess that the Export control puppets know that the Web-TV hubs will be subpoena-able by the US even in these other "sovereign" nations. The WebTV centralized infrastructure makes this easy.

This announcement seems to be getting a lot of this sort of reaction but I don't see quite why the news is greeted with such animosity. If a duly authorized search warrant is required in order to obtain information that represents a potential world of difference from having unrestricted ability to monitor all communications.

Because there are no (or fewer) *technical* barriers to getting the information, it introduces weakness into the system. -- "To sum up: The entire structure of antitrust statutes in this country is a jumble of economic irrationality and ignorance. It is a product: (a) of a gross misinterpretation of history, and (b) of rather naïve, and certainly unrealistic, economic theories." Alan Greenspan, "Anti-trust" http://www.ecosystems.net/mgering/antitrust.html Petro::E-Commerce Adminstrator::Playboy Ent. Inc.::petro@playboy.com::petro@bounty.org

Adam Back

11:17 p.m.

New subject: does Web TV use forward secret cipher-suites? (Re: Web TV with 128b exported)

Petro writes:

...

At 2:39 PM -0500 10/7/98, Steve Bryan wrote:

...
David Honig wrote:

...
I'd guess that the Export control puppets know that the Web-TV hubs will be subpoena-able by the US even in these other "sovereign" nations. The WebTV centralized infrastructure makes this easy.

This is as others have noted cisco's doorbelling approach to GAK -- having routers and automated systems doing decryption, and allowing LEA either direct access (possibly in this case), or access via complicit operators. One question which might help determins just how bad this Web TV thing is, is does it use the forward secret ciphersuites. If it did use FS ciphersuites, if the LEA starts reading traffic after some point (by asking the WebTV operators to do so, or by using a special LEA operator mode), he can't get all old traffic. The EDH (ephemeral DH) modes are forward secret because a new DH key is generated for each session. Some of the RSA modes are forward secret, but only on export grade RSA key sizes (512 bit). As it got export permission, I fear the worst. Perhaps even special LEA operator access. Adam

Bill Stewart

11:17 p.m.

At 02:39 PM 10/7/98 -0500, Steve Bryan wrote:

...

David Honig wrote:

...
I'd guess that the Export control puppets know that the Web-TV hubs will be subpoena-able by the US even in these other "sovereign" nations. The WebTV centralized infrastructure makes this easy.

This announcement seems to be getting a lot of this sort of reaction but I don't see quite why the news is greeted with such animosity. If a duly authorized search warrant is required in order to obtain information that represents a potential world of difference from having unrestricted ability to monitor all communications.

Who would you execute the search warrant _on_? The web site and the browser user? (Then why not let Netscape and IE export 128-bit?) Or some third party who has access to something in the middle (and may not be picky about search warrants, and may not have as much standing to resist a court order or subpoena) ? Or is the WebTV 128-bit code crippleware, using some backdoor key or other hole for police to break in? Basically, it just sounds fishy. Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart@pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639

William H. Geiger III

11:17 p.m.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- In <3.0.5.32.19981006110801.0088a430@m7.sprynet.com>, on 10/06/98 at 11:08 AM, David Honig said:

...

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/981005/ca_microso_1.html

...

MOUNTAIN VIEW, Calif., Oct. 5 /PRNewswire/ -- Microsoft Corp.'s (Nasdaq: MSFT - news) WebTV Networks today announced it is the first U.S. company to obtain government approval to export nonkey recovery-based 128-bit-strength encryption for general commercial use. WebTV Networks pioneered low-cost access to the Internet, e-mail, financial services and electronic shopping through a television set and a standard phone line.

...

The WebTV(TM) Network service, combined with the WebTV-based Internet terminals and receivers, is the first communications system permitted by the U.S. government to provide strong encryption for general use by non-U.S. citizens in Japan and the United Kingdom. Such strong encryption allows Japanese and United Kingdom subscribers of WebTV to communicate through the WebTV Network (both within national borders and internationally) without fear of interception by unauthorized parties.

I have my doubts on this. I find it highly unlikely that the FEDs would approve this without some form of GAK built in even if it is not in the form of "key recovery". - -- - --------------------------------------------------------------- William H. Geiger III http://www.openpgp.net Geiger Consulting Cooking With Warp 4.0 Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail. OS/2 PGP 5.0 at: http://www.openpgp.net/pgp.html - --------------------------------------------------------------- Tag-O-Matic: Walk through doors, don't crawl through Windows. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3a-sha1 Charset: cp850 Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000 iQCVAwUBNhqM149Co1n+aLhhAQH6QgQAwbLSHKbvSQATd9faLKGGhijUdwykD39R pR4TUPBEEw8xZ8ueQBgNkh27Y6jUq3B+m6UuZlcrfMUHtCfHC69l0rE9zSpDVB+U 5zfGgapezqFOw6uy/Mma01WGtZcAjBH92xWT+iHP3VZyWavKU9f93HInup3rVOVZ bXbhoTW5nvk= =2xNs -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Steve Bryan

11:17 p.m.

David Honig wrote:

...

I'd guess that the Export control puppets know that the Web-TV hubs will be subpoena-able by the US even in these other "sovereign" nations. The WebTV centralized infrastructure makes this easy.

This announcement seems to be getting a lot of this sort of reaction but I don't see quite why the news is greeted with such animosity. If a duly authorized search warrant is required in order to obtain information that represents a potential world of difference from having unrestricted ability to monitor all communications. Steve Bryan Vendorsystems International email: sbryan@vendorsystems.com icq: 5263678 pgp fingerprint: D758 183C 8B79 B28E 6D4C 2653 E476 82E6 DA7C 9AC5

Robert Hettinga

11:17 p.m.

At 2:08 PM -0400 on 10/6/98, David Honig wrote:

...

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/981005/ca_microso_1.html

MOUNTAIN VIEW, Calif., Oct. 5 /PRNewswire/ -- Microsoft Corp.'s (Nasdaq: MSFT - news) WebTV Networks today announced it is the first U.S. company to obtain government approval to export nonkey recovery-based 128-bit-strength encryption for general commercial use.

Looks like all of those clandestine visits that BillG, um, paid, to BillC in Martha's Vinyard the last couple of summers finally, um, paid off? Nawwwwwww... Cheers, Bob Hettinga ----------------- Robert A. Hettinga Philodox Financial Technology Evangelism http://www.philodox.com/ 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'

Petro

11:17 p.m.

At 4:32 PM -0500 10/6/98, William H. Geiger III wrote:

...

at 11:08 AM, David Honig said:

...
http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/981005/ca_microso_1.html

...
MOUNTAIN VIEW, Calif., Oct. 5 /PRNewswire/ -- Microsoft Corp.'s (Nasdaq: MSFT - news) WebTV Networks today announced it is the first U.S. company to obtain government approval to export nonkey recovery-based 128-bit-strength encryption for general commercial use. WebTV Networks pioneered low-cost access to the Internet, e-mail, financial services and electronic shopping through a television set and a standard phone line.

...
The WebTV(TM) Network service, combined with the WebTV-based Internet terminals and receivers, is the first communications system permitted by the U.S. government to provide strong encryption for general use by non-U.S. citizens in Japan and the United Kingdom. Such strong encryption allows Japanese and United Kingdom subscribers of WebTV to communicate through the WebTV Network (both within national borders and internationally) without fear of interception by unauthorized parties.

I have my doubts on this. I find it highly unlikely that the FEDs would approve this without some form of GAK built in even if it is not in the form of "key recovery".

I don't. If the chinese can buy access to strong Crypto, then Gates & Crew can get permission to export SSL enabled browsers. -- petro@playboy.com----for work related issues. I don't speak for Playboy. petro@bounty.org-----for everthing else. They wouldn't like that. They REALLY Economic speech IS political speech. wouldn't like that.

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Adam Back
Bill Stewart
David Honig
Petro
Robert Hettinga
SDN
Steve Bryan
William H. Geiger III