RE: Re: wealth and property rights
From: MX%"dave@kachina.jetcafe.org" 22-NOV-1996 00:41:58.20 To: MX%"aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk" CC: MX%"freedom-knights@kachina.jetcafe.org",MX%"cypherpunks@toad.com" Subj: Re: wealth and property rights Return-Path: <cypherpunks-errors@toad.com> Received: from toad.com by spruce.HSU.EDU (MX V4.1 VAX) with SMTP; Fri, 22 Nov 1996 00:41:55 EST Received: (from majordom@localhost) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA04549 for cypherpunks-outgoing; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 18:36:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from kachina.jetcafe.org (jetcafe.org [207.155.21.2]) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA04544 for <cypherpunks@toad.com>; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 18:36:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([127.0.0.1]) by kachina.jetcafe.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA02028; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 18:35:51 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <199611220235.SAA02028@kachina.jetcafe.org> X-Authentication-Warning: kachina.jetcafe.org: Host [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> CC: freedom-knights@kachina.jetcafe.org, cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Re: wealth and property rights Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 18:35:49 -0800 From: Dave Hayes <dave@kachina.jetcafe.org> Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com Precedence: bulk
Btw, people of your mentality (communists/socialists) already make it very difficult for me to accumulate, due to the exhorbitant tax rates to support those who chose to blow their money as soon as they have it
I don't necessarily want to support "socialism" nor "capitalism". Both are extremes of a situation which does no one any good to exist. However, I would question the implication that "socialists" are responsible for the higher tax rates you currently experience. For example, I could make a strong case that you really have some clever "capitalists" who have learned how to express their "capitalism" quite effectively across the space of all people in a "country". 8-) ------ Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet It is the wise bird who builds his nest in a tree.
In <009ABBF7.ACB06A80.64@SPRUCE.HSU.EDU>, on 11/22/96 at 12:18 PM, jc105558@spruce.hsu.edu said:
Btw, people of your mentality (communists/socialists) already make it very difficult for me to accumulate, due to the exhorbitant tax rates to support those who chose to blow their money as soon as they have it
I don't necessarily want to support "socialism" nor "capitalism". Both are extremes of a situation which does no one any good to exist.
However, I would question the implication that "socialists" are responsible for the higher tax rates you currently experience.
For example, I could make a strong case that you really have some clever "capitalists" who have learned how to express their "capitalism" quite effectively across the space of all people in a "country".
What a crock!! socialist/communist are theifs; plain & simple. They beleive they have the right to steal from one to give to another. capitalists beleive in an exchange in property/services at a rate the market will bare. socialists example: You have somthing I want/need & I am going to take it from you. capitalists example: You have somthing I want/need what can I give you in exchange. socialism uses FORCE to take what it wants while the capitilism you have a free & volintary exchange. why is this so hard to understand?? -- ----------------------------------------------------------- "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@amaranth.com> -----------------------------------------------------------
On Wed, 27 Nov 1996, William H. Geiger III wrote: [...snip...]
socialism uses FORCE to take what it wants while the capitilism you have a free & volintary exchange.
No. Some systems are based on coercion, some are based on freedom. This is a completely different issue from whether a system is based on sharing or hoarding... As several people have been trying to explain to you, there are really _two_ axes at work here. (Something, for all my differences with its authors, the `Libertarian Test' shows quite well) One the one hand, some ssytems are statist while others are anarchistic/librtarian. On the other hand, some systems are based on individual ownership, while others are based on communal cooperation. These axes are completely independent. In a statist system, it doesn't matter whether you call yourself a `socialism' or a `capitalism' -- the state can only preserve itself through theft and brutality. On the other hand, in a free system, you would have the option of pursuing capitalism, hoarding goods to trade with those of similar beliefs, while those who, as myself, believe that more can be accomplished by pooling efforts and resources would be free to work toward such a community. Surely you do not find socialism so frightening that you would deny us the right to seek it _for_ourselves_...
why is this so hard to understand??
Because it is a gross oversimplification based on a misunderstanding of the basic issues at stake... -- Jim Wise System Administrator GSAPP, Columbia University jim@santafe.arch.columbia.edu http://www.arch.columbia.edu/~jim * Finger for PGP public key *
William H. Geiger III wrote:
at 12:18 PM, jc105558@spruce.hsu.edu said:
[snippo]
socialist/communist are theifs; plain & simple. They beleive they have the right to steal from one to give to another. capitalists beleive in an exchange in property/services at a rate the market will bare. socialists example: You have somthing I want/need & I am going to take it from you. capitalists example: You have somthing I want/need what can I give you in exchange. socialism uses FORCE to take what it wants while the capitilism you have a free & volintary exchange.
Close, but the cigar doesn't burn long enough. Capitalism, as said by one who knows, is as much an enemy (well, almost) of Free Enterprise as is Socialism, due to Capitalism rewarding monopolies as they do, with their Golden Parachutes et al discouraging real investment on the part of most corporate "leaders". Just don't confuse "Free Trade" with "Free Enterprise".
participants (4)
-
Dale Thorn -
jc105558＠spruce.hsu.edu -
Jim Wise -
William H. Geiger III