Re: Spam-killing PGP5/ecash postage plugin Was Re: Remailer chaining plugin for Eudora
--- begin forwarded text X-Sender: rah@mail.shipwright.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 18:31:17 -0400 To: e$@thumper.vmeng.com, mac-crypto@thumper.vmeng.com From: Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com> Subject: Re: Spam-killing PGP5/ecash postage plugin Was Re: Remailer chaining plugin for Eudora Sender: <e$@vmeng.com> Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip 2.0 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:requests@vmeng.com?subject=unsubscribe%20e$> List-Subscribe: <mailto:requests@vmeng.com?subject=subscribe%20e$> At 4:29 pm -0400 on 8/21/97, Somebody wrote:
Sorry, but I think e-postage is among the worst ideas I've ever heard of. I don't think it's clear that it would eliminate spam. It might even increase it -- I'll bet the overall costs of email are lower than for paper mail --
But the relative present cost of spam (free) is, um, siginificantly, less than it would cost with e$postage.
and it would be the death of mailing lists.
Not at all. At the very least, mail from lists I'm subcribed to could come postage due. And, since I'm the person who's charging postage, sender pays, remember, I could charge free postage to my friends, like the 1000 or so in cypherpunks, or the 300 on e$ and mac-crypto. :-). There are work arounds. Face it, the world is going to specific cash settled auction pricing on internet services, and not bulk, or even probabalistic, pricing. No problem. It'll mean cheaper services in the long run, not only because someone then owns the "commons", but because efficient autonomously run cash-settled auctions are always cheaper than transfer pricing and "planning". It's like comparing the Chicago Board of Trade wheat pit, the world's most efficient wheat market, to the committee which set Soviet wheat production quotas. Notice who was selling wheat to whom in *that* scenario. :-). Reality, economic or otherwise, is not optional... Cheers, Bob Hettinga ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- Where people, networks and money come together: Consult Hyperion http://www.hyperion.co.uk info@hyperion.co.uk --------------------------------------------------------------------- Like e$? Help pay for it! See <http://www.shipwright.com/beg.html> Or, for e$/e$pam sponsorship, <mailto:rah@shipwright.com> --------------------------------------------------------------------- --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Robert Hettinga wrote:
and it would be the death of mailing lists. Not at all. At the very least, mail from lists I'm subcribed to could come postage due.
But then you'll get spam on the list. Most of the spam I get is from mailing lists. If it's $.02 to send a mail to 10000 cypherpunks, then spammers won't hesitate to send it. If it's $.02 * 10000 ($200) then only rich people (like tcmay) will post here. The only solution I see is moderation and censorship, and that can be (and has been) done without e-postage. Exactly how do you think that e-postage would decrease spam on mailing lists? -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0 Charset: noconv iQA/AwUBM/1HLMUc8bdD9cnfEQK+mACfaKBL1UHz54rTIVG1OLf3ASQ330IAn3QR Ped/qRtSae20p/vDrMCzCCQj =Bp6T -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- Mike.
(I'm stopping in during my vacation...) On Fri, 22 Aug 1997, Mike wrote:
If it's $.02 to send a mail to 10000 cypherpunks, then spammers won't hesitate to send it. If it's $.02 * 10000 ($200) then only rich people (like tcmay) will post here. The only solution I see is moderation and censorship, and that can be (and has been) done without e-postage.
Exactly how do you think that e-postage would decrease spam on mailing lists?
That is a simplistic and ineffective way to implement an e-postage fix. A better way would be to try a deposit, or a third-party rating system for post quality, or a list of domains that are likely to be free from spammers, or so on. These have been discussed here before. I even wrote about them a year ago in Internet World. -Declan
Another thought: Simply have everyone automatically start signing (or encrypting) the mail they send. Then if something is signed by someone on my main public key ring (so cypherpunks and other lists would have a key), I let it through. If it is encrypted to me, I let it through (requiring cpu cycles similar to hashcash). Otherwise, it goes to the junkmail folder. --- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---
At 12:01 AM -0700 8/22/97, Mike wrote:
If it's $.02 to send a mail to 10000 cypherpunks, then spammers won't hesitate to send it. If it's $.02 * 10000 ($200) then only rich people (like tcmay) will post here. The only solution I see is moderation and censorship, and that can be (and has been) done without e-postage.
Exactly how do you think that e-postage would decrease spam on mailing lists?
Well, first of all, one of the reasons I now have money is that I was frugal in my high-earning years. And that means not paying $200 to send my words out to 10,000 readers. "Spam" is a controversial topic. The term itself is too overloaded and fraught with various meanings to be useful. Some refer to _anything_ they don't want, or didn't specifically request, as "spam." And so on. As for the claim that "The only solution I see is moderation and censorship," Mike needs to go back an revisit the list's experiences with moderation and censorship in the January-February period this year. It was neither cheaper nor more effective. --Tim May There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws. Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!" ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^1398269 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
participants (5)
-
Declan McCullagh -
Mike -
nospam-seesignature＠ceddec.com -
Robert Hettinga -
Tim May