At 12:51 AM -0800 1/6/98, Wei Dai wrote:

I don't understand why there is so much talk about guns here lately. Unless someone comes up with a weapon that has some very unusual economic properties, individuals cannot hope to compete with governments in the domain of deadly force. If we have to resort to physical violence, we've already lost!

People on almost any unmoderated mailing list will talk about what interests them. Those who mainly want to talk about crypto are of course free to do so. (You have, Wei, done important work in this area. But you very, very seldom write articles on this list, at least not for the last couple of years--I count less than one article per month from you over the past half year. I urge you to write such articles if you dislike reading what others are writing.) I agree that two or three or four or five years ago I was much more likely to write about something more crypto-related. Well, much time has passed. Most things worth saying have been said, at least for me. I can't work up the energy to discuss "data havens" a fourth or fifth time. (And an article from me on data havens, or information markets, or crypto anarchy, will usually produce complaints from people who don't see what it has to do with getting the latest version of PGP! That's only a slight exaggeration.) There have also been very few major new participants. A few years ago we could count on one or two major new "talents" joining the list each year, generating articles and new ideas. For whatever reasons, this has nearly stopped. I would guess the reasons are related to a) no major publicity stories as in past years, b) the disintegration of the list a year ago in the wake of the "moderation" fiasco (which cut subscriptions by 3-5x), c) competition from several other crypto lists, "moderated" by their owners, d) exhaustion of the older participants in the battles, and e) those who are interested in our topics have mostly already found us (meaning, the rich hunting period is over). ;

Think about it: if we can defend ourselves with guns, why would we need crypto?

This has an obvious answer. Guns are a last resort. Crypto makes it less likely that Big Brother will know what the proles are talking about, less likely that participants in a plan will be targetted for investigation and raids. Wei, your question could be paraphrased this way: "If Pablo Escobar could defend himself with guns, why did he need crypto in his cellphone?" (The answer being that P. Escobar was detected by using a cellphone without security. The NSA then told the DEA and its allies where he was and they took him out on a rooftop.) Final comment: If I find the motivation, I may finish an essay I've been working on about how we, the Cypherpunks and the World, are *retrogressing* in crypto areas. Most of the exotic applications are no longer being discussed, and various mundane commercial products are the main focus. Yawn. --Tim May The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^2,976,221 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

Wei Dai writes:

I don't understand why there is so much talk about guns here lately. Unless someone comes up with a weapon that has some very unusual economic properties, individuals cannot hope to compete with governments in the domain of deadly force. If we have to resort to physical violence, we've already lost!

Think about it: if we can defend ourselves with guns, why would we need crypto?

I agree- the fedz will always have better firepower than any of us. Tim's strategy of letting them know that he won't take a 'no-knock' raid sitting down might keep them honest. Or it might make them come in with 80 special agents and a heliocopter to drop napalm on his house. I'm not going to spend a lot of time setting up defenses against a massive police attack- the costs are too high (expensive weapons, time practicing on the range) and the hassle is great... who wants to live barricaded in their house, jumping at every noise? Better to do the things that we're good at- writing code, cracking codes, writing about crypto-liberation ideas. However, guns are good for a couple things- they're still useful against non-government thugs, and they're a hell of a lot of fun. -- Eric Murray Chief Security Scientist N*Able Technologies www.nabletech.com (email: ericm at lne.com or nabletech.com) PGP keyid:E03F65E5

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 At 12:51 AM 1/6/98 -0800, Wei Dai wrote:

I don't understand why there is so much talk about guns here lately. Unless someone comes up with a weapon that has some very unusual economic properties, individuals cannot hope to compete with governments in the domain of deadly force. If we have to resort to physical violence, we've already lost!

Think about it: if we can defend ourselves with guns, why would we need crypto?

InfoWar has always been a critical component of MeatWar. Knowing who your enemy is and where he is at makes it much easier to do something about him. Intelligence (in the military sense) and the tools to deny it to your enemy (strong crypto) are of equal importance to weapons. If you know that a homicidal Postal Service employee is standing outside your front door and is preparing to blast it off its hinges and then kill you, this intelligence will do nothing but raise your blood pressure if you have no weapons with which to deal with the situation. (Calling 911 isn't going to help you much.) If you own several "assault weapons", but are asleep in the living room when the door comes crashing down, the lack of intel will greatly reduce the effectiveness of said weapons. I have an equation for this: Effectiveness = Intelligence * Force * Will. I define force as the theoretical ability to inflict damage on an opponent, whether via bad PR, propaganda, lethal or nonlethal weapons, or any other means. Force has 2 components: Materiel and Skill. Thus, Force = Materiel * Skill. (Example: If I own a riot shotgun and appropriate ammunition, and have taken it to the range and familiarized myself with its use, I have the theoretical ability to shoot the aforementioned Homicidal Postal Employee, but mere ownership of the weapon and skill in its use does not guarantee that outcome.) Will is simply the will to fight if necessary. Although government will always have a higher Force factor than an individual or "the cypherpunks" or a militia, it can be possible to achieve a higher Effectiveness score via higher Intelligence and/or Will factors. This is how we lost the war in Vietnam. We had a much higher Force level than the VC, comparable Intelligence levels, but a much lower Will ratio (at least at the upper decision-making levels). Because of this, our Force assets were bound under all sorts of bizarre restrictions which hampered their usefulness, and we ultimately left in defeat. By disseminating a mechanism for increasing the Cypherpunks Force level (the Assassination Politics essay) and annoying some IRS agents with a stinkbomb, Jim Bell increased the government's Will to capture and incarcerate him. This is the problem with with terrorism in general (the OKC bombing is a prime example). If either Intelligence (the domain of crypto) or Force (the domain of weapons) is zero, Effectiveness (the real-world ability to inflict damage or defend yourself from damage) is also zero. Ignoring either can be costly. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5 iQA/AwUBNLKd2sJF0kXqpw3MEQJMDACfbGNLIqwE57SxitK5ZDDc/JuWn1YAniO0 MxsO+BZXi+DWL9URMyOj+dzr =s/B9 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- Jonathan Wienke PGP Key Fingerprints: 7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1 3A8F 778A 7407 2928 3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA 4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC "If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." -- Samuel Adams "Stupidity is the one arena of of human achievement where most people fulfill their potential." -- Jonathan Wienke Never sign a contract that contains the phrase "first-born child." When the government fears the people there is liberty. When the people fear the government there is tyranny. RSA export-o-matic: print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<> )]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`

I don't understand why there is so much talk about guns here lately. Unless someone comes up with a weapon that has some very unusual economic properties, individuals cannot hope to compete with governments in the domain of deadly force. If we have to resort to physical violence, we've

Tell that to Lincoln, Duke F., Kennedy, &etc. No, we couldn't win thru the overwhelming use of force, but force properly applied could at some point prove useful.

already lost!

There are some of us who feel that if we "lose", it would be better to go down fighting than to live in the kind of world where we can't protect our privacy with crypto.

Think about it: if we can defend ourselves with guns, why would we need crypto?

Different realms. Crypto deals with transient/ephemeral(sp?) things like bits & words & numbers. Arms work in a more physical world of Rapists, Theives, & Dictators.

On Sun, Jan 11, 1998 at 03:34:58AM -0500, Matthew L Bennett wrote:

...

If we have to resort to physical violence, we've already lost!

No, we wouldn't. If we had to resort to physical violence against a government, than it needs it, you shouldn't need to do that if the Constitution is in effect. Otherwise...

...

Think about it: if we can defend ourselves with guns, why would we need crypto?

Because holding up a PGP disk will not save your life if a robber/looter/IRS Agent breaks into your house.

Reread the question. -- Kent Crispin, PAB Chair "No reason to get excited", kent@songbird.com the thief he kindly spoke... PGP fingerprint: B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44 61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55 http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html