Re: National ID cards are just the driver's licenses...
At 08:19 AM 7/15/94 -0700, Sandy Sandfort wrote:
Over the period I've been on this list, I've seen the optimism of various Cypherpunks wax and wane. Normally, I greatly respect Tim's opinions. Today, though, I think Tim is reflecting an emotional response more than a factual one.
S a n d y
Maybe Tim needs to leave the People's Republic of Kalifornia and go into "internal exile" in one of the United States which is less invasive. DCF "Haven't read much SF since I found the Net since it seems 'wrong' now. Left with military SF usually sited in 'other places/other times' where the lack of the Net doesn't interfere with enjoyment. Just finished "Guns of the South" by Harry Turtledove. Usual Lee vs Grant in the Battle of the Wilderness with AK-47s. Even if you don't like the Second American Revolution (Civil War) or military SF, a hell of a story. Every character in it (save those from 2014) is a historical character. Look for the cover art of Lee with an AK-47."
I'll respond briefly here to the points both Sandy S. and Duncan F. make. Cypherpunks who are interested exclusively in RSA keylengths or in PGP Shells will not find this interesting. In my view, discussion of tax policies and the implications of crypto has a role on this list. Those who don't think so should hit "delete" now.
At 08:19 AM 7/15/94 -0700, Sandy Sandfort wrote:
Over the period I've been on this list, I've seen the optimism of various Cypherpunks wax and wane. Normally, I greatly respect Tim's opinions. Today, though, I think Tim is reflecting an emotional response more than a factual one.
Sandy, in his original post, went on to speculate that I am just ignorant of the methods used. I disagree. I've talked to legal folks, have strategized with friends who are also "persons of money" (to coin a euphemism) and there appear to be few options for me to avoid huge tax bites except via taking some pretty severe steps, like leaving the U.S. and not returning. I don't dispute that no schemes exist, I just claim that they're difficult to set up (not surprisingly, in my opinion) and that in my situation, with assets largely in the form of stock and real estate, there are no easy ways to convert them into tax-protected forms while remaining in the U.S. and while not being hit with a 35-45% tax bite. (Which I find unacceptable, for various reasons.) I have--don't forward this to the IRS!--toyed with the idea of simply moving to a tax haven. A problem is that the tax folks in the U.S. have a nifty idea that expatriates (ex-patriots?!) should still file U.S. tax returns for 10 years after departure. Enforcement may be tough right now, but I foresee advances in networks and border checkpoints leading to situations in which tax-haven residents are held at entries into the U.S. on charges of tax evasion. If this belief of mine is accurate, then leaving the U.S. could be a one-way ticket out. Maybe I'll go this route, ultimately, but it's certainly not an easy step to take...and not one I'm planning to take anytime soon, and not without a hell of a lot more thinking. (My friends in similar situations are investigating options. None look easy to take. Sure, Justin Dart can take his marbles and move to Belize, but his needs are different from mine. He doesn't need Computer Literacy Bookshop, Fry's Electronics, and a network of Bay Area friends, for example. And so on.) Duncan Frissell goes on to write:
Maybe Tim needs to leave the People's Republic of Kalifornia and go into "internal exile" in one of the United States which is less invasive.
Well, Kalifornia is not the main issue. It's max tax rate is 11%, compared to 39-41% (as I recall) for the Feds. So my _main_ concern is not Kalif. (I recall Duncan resides in New Jersey. An odd choice, I would think, given their tax rate and other peculiar laws. But I digress.) But I agree that the time may be coming for me to leave Kalifornia. I'd give some reasons, but many of you kind-hearted people would denounce me as racist, so I won't. (Suffice it to say I'm not a racist, I just believe every person and every business should be free to choose its customers and suppliers as it sees fit....Kalifornia is choosing to inject itself into nearly all business dealings under the guise of "fairness" and "antidiscrimination." I also see the social welfare system straining, with inner cities becoming cesspools of welfare and with unskilled immigrants being dropped directly onto the welfare rolls...a reason Kalifornia is deeply in debt and why businesses are seeking to expand elsewhere.) As a step short of leaving the U.S. (partly because I think that while the U.S. gets the Net attention for its Gorewellian plans, other countries are following suit or have already done so), I've been to Nevada to scout out property (no state income tax, lower real estate prices, fairly mild climate, little welfare) and plan to check out the coastal regions of Florida (also no state income tax). The Cypherpunks connection (if you've read this far, no one was forcing you to, so you must have found it interesting, eh?) is that I might even be involved someday in a true Caribbean node for a Net connection. (But don't expect me to move to the Turks and Caicos tomorrow!) --Tim May -- .......................................................................... Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@netcom.com | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero 408-688-5409 | knowledge, reputations, information markets, W.A.S.T.E.: Aptos, CA | black markets, collapse of governments. Higher Power: 2^859433 | Public Key: PGP and MailSafe available. "National borders are just speed bumps on the information superhighway."
C'punks, On Fri, 15 Jul 1994, Timothy C. May wrote:
[lots of stuff about taking severe steps]
From what Tim alludes to, I still think he is just plain wrong about how bad things would be on him. He's probably getting bad advice from practicing lawyers who have a vested interest in having financial privacy "difficult" to obtain. (More billible hours, more fees.) For the rest of us who aren't retired zillionaires, though, there is plenty that can be done.
. . . As a step short of leaving the U.S. (partly because I think that while the U.S. gets the Net attention for its Gorewellian plans, other countries are following suit or have already done so), I've been to Nevada to scout out property (no state income tax, lower real estate prices, fairly mild climate, little welfare) and plan to check out the coastal regions of Florida (also no state income tax).
. . . I might even be involved someday in a true Caribbean node for a Net connection.
(But don't expect me to move to the Turks and Caicos tomorrow!)
Now THIS is the give-'em-hell, can-do Tim we all know and love. S a n d y
Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com> writes:
From what Tim alludes to, I still think he is just plain wrong about how bad things would be on him. He's probably getting bad advice from practicing lawyers who have a vested interest in having financial privacy "difficult" to obtain. (More billible hours, more fees.) For the rest of us who aren't retired zillionaires, though, there is plenty that can be done.
The real problem that I see is getting legal assets out of the control and monitoring of the US/IRS. Especially without taking a bath in the process. It is much easier to launder illegal assets than legal ones, and any method would need to handle NYSE securities to be useful.
C'punks, On Tue, 19 Jul 1994, Linn Stanton wrote:
. . . The real problem that I see is getting legal assets out of the control and monitoring of the US/IRS. Especially without taking a bath in the process.
It is much easier to launder illegal assets than legal ones, and any method would need to handle NYSE securities to be useful.
Can do. If Duncan and I gave a privacy seminar, who would be interested in participating? Private e-mail responses, please. S a n d y
(If you are not interested in the topic of money laundering, using crypto to avoid taxes, etc., hit "DELETE" now. Better this than sending me messages telling me that the "purpose" of Cypherpunks is discussing the latest versions of PGP 2.6ui and the like.) Linn Stanton hit the nail on the head:
Sandy Sandfort <sandfort@crl.com> writes:
From what Tim alludes to, I still think he is just plain wrong about how bad things would be on him. He's probably getting bad advice from practicing lawyers who have a vested interest in having financial privacy "difficult" to obtain. (More billible hours, more fees.) For the rest of us who aren't retired zillionaires, though, there is plenty that can be done.
The real problem that I see is getting legal assets out of the control and monitoring of the US/IRS. Especially without taking a bath in the process.
It is much easier to launder illegal assets than legal ones, and any method would need to handle NYSE securities to be useful.
Precisely! For those of us whose assets are already "visible," in the form of real estate or stock or the like, the prescripions of some on this list to "ignore them and they'll be powerless" (a paraphrase of this scofflaw approach) is not at all persuasive. Having been invited in to "chat" with my regional IRS officials in San Jose on a couple of occasions, and seeing my stock broker's wonderful computerized statements being forwarded to these same folks, I don't hold out much hope for escaping. Now I suppose some might say this is my fault, for not having acquired the assets in a foreign tax haven like the Cayman Islands, or not having lived my life by leasing my cars, only renting houses, etc. These were not options. While it is certainly true than I can easily hide modest amounts of assets, hiding large amounts is usually a one-way street. That is, the legal and jurisdictional repercussions have to be very carefully considered, as they can't be reversed once taken. Maybe they exist. I'm sure some people have hidden assets from the tax collector and still lived in the U.S. or other high tax rate states. But I'm not at all convinced by arguments that because some people have piled up unpaid traffic tickets, or have no assets to seize, and are hence "judgement proof," that this helps me or anyone else in my position (a bunch of my Silicon Valley friends, concretely enough). I'm sure the judgement-proofing Duncan Frissell talks about has worked for him, in his situation, but I've seen no convincing way to get from "here" to "there" in a way that I am remotely comfortable with. And I'd suggest that if Duncan really knows a way to do this--one that takes into account people's _current situations_, as opposed to suggesting that they should have chosen a different path in the past--then he should have no problem earning a million dollars a year as a tax consultant. Not having had the pleasure of meeting Duncan, I can't judge whether he's now earning rates like this. (If so, congratulations--and give me a call and I'll hire you. If not, why not?) --Tim May -- .......................................................................... Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@netcom.com | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero 408-688-5409 | knowledge, reputations, information markets, W.A.S.T.E.: Aptos, CA | black markets, collapse of governments. Higher Power: 2^859433 | Public Key: PGP and MailSafe available. "National borders are just speed bumps on the information superhighway."
participants (4)
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frissell＠panix.com -
Linn Stanton -
Sandy Sandfort -
tcmay＠netcom.com