At 12:08 AM -0800 4/2/97, Kent Crispin wrote:

I'm not working from a cheat sheet. No one is telling me what to say. Just like you, I am too totally inconsequential to make it worth anyone's time to try to make me say anything.

I am not in favor of GAK, either. When I talk about companies wanting key escrow I am speaking from observation, not ideology. It's sad that a mailing list that purports to be a bastion of free thought harbors so many closed minds -- people who don't have the faintest idea about my beliefs fall all over themselves jumping to conclusions, apparently because they have become so conditioned to certain buzzphrases that they no longer think.

I don't see a significant fraction of the commentors here making allegations that you are some kind of government agent. While you may have a "LLNL" address, and so may work for the Lab, I don't consider this significant, per se. However, many of us are more than just opposed to GAK: we are skeptical of claims that business wants something closely resembling GAK. Key recovery systems have many legitimate uses; this has been acknowledged by the thoughtful commentors here for several years, for as long as the debate has existed. (Before the Cypherpunks group was even formed, I did some consulting for a businees interested in setting up a form of offshore data storage--key recovery was an obvious part of the strategy.) However, key recovery need have no "hooks" by government into it. The attempt by the government to ensure secret access, without even so much as a search warrant, is revealing. This is what we oppose. Opposing a system which could easily turn into GAK is hardly a matter of "closed minds." Kent, you don't want folks labelling you. You should then avoid language like "fall all over themselves," "conditioned," "purports to be," and "jumping to conclusions." In fact, in that paragraph of yours above nearly every phrase was this sort of slam. --Tim May Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside" We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^1398269 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

Well, after i read this, a quaestion popped into my head? Would the governmnet do the same with snail -mail? But more importantly, does the governm,ent have the right to even go through your private property? On Wed, 2 Apr 1997 20:36:52 -0800 Bill Frantz writes:

At 5:43 PM -0800 4/2/97, Timothy C. May wrote:

...

However, key recovery need have no "hooks" by government into it. The attempt by the government to ensure secret access, without even so much as a search warrant, is revealing.

This issue is to me key. If the government wants any creditability on the GAK issue, it will include in any GAK system, a provision for independent auditing, after the fact, of intercepts. (BTW - I will still oppose GAK, but some of my best arguments will be taken away.)

It seems to me that once you swollen the idea that government has, under any circumstances, a right to read your mail, there are two issues.

(1) Is the proscribed procedure fair? (2) Did the government follow the procedure?

(My opposition to GAK is based on my belief that there are no star chamber proceedings which are fair. The ability to confront the witnesses against you and compel witnesses to testify for you are key here.)

However, auditing only addresses the second issue. There are many problems with auditing the government's use of its access. One key one is, who is the auditor? At CFP97, I suggested that the press would make a good auditor.

If the KRAP agency is truly at arms length from the government*, then a report of the keys released compared with records that the procedures were followed, would allow anyone, the press included, to check that the government followed the procedures.

Now, I frequently think that the press is in bed with the government, so I am looking for a better auditor. Some institution which values its reputation more than it values its relationship with the government would do. Anyone have any good candidates?

* Assuring this arms length relationship is an exercise for the student. (I give it a Knuth grade of 50.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bill Frantz | I have taken a real job at | Periwinkle -- Consulting (408)356-8506 | Electric Communities as a | 16345 Englewood Ave. frantz@netcom.com | capability security guru. | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA