Re: Anonymous proxies & ITAR question
Also sprach nobody:
Under ITAR regs, if a "foreign national" was to use the server to get access to "munitions" (sure, software kills, didn't cha know?), could I be held in violation?
Even if all they had was circumstantial evidence, I'd really like to avoid being indicted - puts a real kink in one's social schedule.
Your thoughts on this would be appreciated.
This is why we need more remailers, and why it's good that you posted anonymously. The proper thing to do is to be "shocked, shocked!" that anything illegal is happening on your server, immediately shut it down (counting on the network to be self-healing with the help of an enhanced remailer list), and offer to cooperate fully. Unfortunately, you don't keep logs, so you wouldn't really be able to help (damn!). -rich http://www.stanford.edu/~llurch/
At 08:59 PM 6/13/97 -0700, you wrote:
This is why we need more remailers, and why it's good that you posted anonymously. The proper thing to do is to be "shocked, shocked!" that anything illegal is happening on your server, ... your ecash, sir .... immediately shut it down (counting on the network to be self-healing with the help of an enhanced remailer list), and offer to cooperate fully. Unfortunately, you don't keep logs, so you wouldn't really be able to help (damn!).
Shutting it down would be bad - that gives them an easy denial of service attack (though better to have them use that attack than child porn....) Put a warning on the front page that it's NOT to be used for illegal purposes etc., phrased seriously, complaining that you'll have to shut it down if people keep abusing it... And make sure your proxy server only accepts encrypted requests, so that eavesdropping doesn't gain much. The hard problem is getting enough people to run the things. While the _right_ solution is probably to put anonymous web proxies in the distribution versions of Apache or Stronghold, so that there are thousands of them, the alternative is convincing people to run them. Unlike email remailers, where the big annoyance is dealing with spam, the main problem with running web proxies is just volume. Adding a semaphore or rate limiter to the proxy might help, and I've heard some people have blocked large GIFs - but you still want to handle downloads of contraband software, which means accepting and caching multi-megabyte code. I suppose it would be interesting for anonymous web proxies to generate cover traffic as well - periodically browse sites like Radikal mirrors and other contraband. # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com # You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp # (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies. Thanks.)
I want to elaborate on a point I made earlier: At 1:11 PM -0700 6/16/97, Tim May wrote:
"I operate an electronic mail service. I abide by the terms of the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, the ECPA, and I do not inspect or monitor the contents of the mail flowing in my system. To do so would be a violation of the ECPA. And besides the ECPA, such inspection would be a violation of the property rights of my users.
It's important to realize that "scienter" (knowledge) of some criminal act is an important part of the law in the United States. We don't hold the owners or operators of a storage facility, like a U-Stor-it, responsible for illegal materials stored, be they drugs, explosives, guns, pornography, crypto, dead bodies, or other illegal or contraband things. We also don't expect operators of such facilities to inspect items going into storage. (I'm _not_ saying customers have some right of privacy, I'm saying that operators make contractual arrangements, and inspecting contents is a time-consuming thing which they'd rather not do, and which their customers would rather not see done. What law enforcement might want is another matter, as it usually is, and for this we have a thing called "the court system.) Likewise, we don't hold hotel owners or clerks responsible for the many, many crimes and misdeeds which hotel rooms are notorious for. Hotel rooms are the favored locations for prostitution, narcotics deals, plotting of crimes, etc. (In both of the above examples, it is possible to imagine circumstances in which a storage facility or hotel is charged with complicity in one way or another. Sometimes hotels which encourage prostitution are hit with various charges, including "public nuisance" laws. But these do not affect the more basic point that scienter is expected before a crime is charged, and that a kind of "containerization" of property rights means that the temporary users of some property are responsible, not the actual owner or leasor.) The renter of a car or truck is not responsible for the contents. The driver of a truck is not responsible for illegal substances contained in packages that are not his and that he had no knowledge about, etc. Federal Express is not responsible if porn is sent in violation of some law. (Yes, there are some exceptions. Nuisance laws, negligence laws, etc. Again, not related to the central point. Some believe remailers could be hit under the nuisance laws, but I am skeptical of this....publishers cannot be shut down because they are a "nuisance," so far as I know. Lots of things to consider here.) I think this line of reasoning, that the "common law" in Western countries is that owners and leasors are not the one responsible for crimes committed using their property and services (unless they are knowledgeable about the crimes, which is a separable issue), is straightforwardly applicable to the remailer issue. Besides, the ECPA, as noted, makes it an explicit crime for mail services to inspect the contents of mail except under specified or agreed-upon conditions. --Tim may There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws. Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!" ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^1398269 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
At 10:21 AM -0700 6/16/97, Bill Stewart wrote:
At 08:59 PM 6/13/97 -0700, you wrote:
This is why we need more remailers, and why it's good that you posted anonymously. The proper thing to do is to be "shocked, shocked!" that anything illegal is happening on your server, ... your ecash, sir .... immediately shut it down (counting on the network to be self-healing with the help of an enhanced remailer list), and offer to cooperate fully. Unfortunately, you don't keep logs, so you wouldn't really be able to help (damn!).
Shutting it down would be bad - that gives them an easy denial of service attack (though better to have them use that attack than child porn....)
Another strategy, besides the "I'm shocked, simply shocked, and I'll shut it down immediately, sir!" cave-in, is to say this: "I operate an electronic mail service. I abide by the terms of the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, the ECPA, and I do not inspect or monitor the contents of the mail flowing in my system. To do so would be a violation of the ECPA. And besides the ECPA, such inspection would be a violation of the property rights of my users. "I take a hands off approach to uses of my mail service, as the ECPA expects me to do, and what customers are sending is none of my concern. "If you have a problem with something sent by one of my customers, or wish to question him or her about the contents of their mail, I suggest you obtain proper court orders and contact him or her directly. "Whether you can identify him or her is your problem, not mine." --Tim May There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws. Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!" ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^1398269 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
At 10:21 AM -0700 6/16/97, Bill Stewart wrote:
Put a warning on the front page that it's NOT to be used for illegal purposes etc., phrased seriously, complaining that you'll have to shut it down if people keep abusing it...
The problem here is that this just makes shutting down the remailera more attractive target for malicious persons, pranksters, and other such folks. Like waving a red flag in front of a bullshitter. I suspect some of the remailers which have been shut down were hit by folks just trying to see if they could do it. Such loud warnings are unneeded by ordinary members of a community, and will be ignored or even deliberately tested or flouted by certain others. As with Sandy's imposition of his notions of "civility" and "comaraderie," the predictable effect was testing of the limits. (I admit to having a perverse side, too. No suprise to many of you. Several years ago I posted some binaries to the brand-new newsgroup, "alt.binaries.pictures.erotica.children". I claimed they were some hot lolitas, though in fact they were misc. PGP noise, with hidden text messages running down some of the diagonals, to get me off the hook if some DA claimed they were real pictures and demanded the decryption key. I wanted to shake things up. Got a lot of outraged responses, too.) --Tim May There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws. Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!" ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^1398269 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
On Mon, 16 Jun 1997, Tim May wrote:
(I admit to having a perverse side, too. No suprise to many of you. Several years ago I posted some binaries to the brand-new newsgroup, "alt.binaries.pictures.erotica.children". I claimed they were some hot lolitas, though in fact they were misc. PGP noise, with hidden text messages running down some of the diagonals, to get me off the hook if some DA claimed they were real pictures and demanded the decryption key. I wanted to shake things up. Got a lot of outraged responses, too.)
Were they outraged that it was not kiddy porn or outraged that they could not get to it or outraged because you claimed it was kiddy porn? (I tend to direct people to http://www.thecorporation.com/oneoffs/96/kittyporn/index.html for that sort of stuff...) Makes you wonder what they were doing reading that group in the first place... alano@teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."
At 1:45 PM -0700 6/16/97, Alan wrote:
On Mon, 16 Jun 1997, Tim May wrote:
(I admit to having a perverse side, too. No suprise to many of you. Several years ago I posted some binaries to the brand-new newsgroup, "alt.binaries.pictures.erotica.children". I claimed they were some hot lolitas, though in fact they were misc. PGP noise, with hidden text messages running down some of the diagonals, to get me off the hook if some DA claimed they were real pictures and demanded the decryption key. I wanted to shake things up. Got a lot of outraged responses, too.)
Were they outraged that it was not kiddy porn or outraged that they could not get to it or outraged because you claimed it was kiddy porn? (I tend to direct people to http://www.thecorporation.com/oneoffs/96/kittyporn/index.html for that sort of stuff...)
Some of them said I should be imprisoned for posting erotic images of children. And some of them wanted me to send them the proper decryption key. And some even claimed, after I revealed that the supposed GIF images were not real, that I was nevertheless guilty of "making a market in child porn." As we've been discussing lately, a classic case of "thoughtcrime."
Makes you wonder what they were doing reading that group in the first place...
No doubt they were "researchers." Got to study those nekkid pictures really, really carefully, with a magnifyng glass....yeah, "researchers." Just like "se7en." --Tim May There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws. Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!" ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^1398269 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
participants (4)
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Alan -
Bill Stewart -
Rich Graves -
Tim May