At 12:06 PM -0700 9/12/97, John Smith wrote:

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I'm just pointing out that we saw this situation several years ago with Clipper. The list was, predictably, sidetracked with literally thousands of suggestions about how best to recruit more public supporters. T-shirts, gimmicks, and suggestions for songs about crypto, for getting t.v. producers to put crypto, pro-privacy themes in their t.v. shows, and so on. All pretty hopeless, wouldn't you say?

Why do you say that? Clipper was defeated. People all over the net united and opposed it. Now there is this new threat, but at least defeating Clipper bought some time. There is no reason the same thing can't happen again.

Sometimes I think cypherpunks *want* crypto to be outlawed.

Many of us spent much time fighting this. I don't recall hearing your name in any of the efforts. The effort this time around will better be spent deploying crypto widely, not seeking to influence voters and citizen-units. Part of why Clipper was not successful is the smear campaign we successfully mounted against it, making it "uncool" to work on Clipper-related projects, to use Clipper products, etc. Also, we used anonymous remailers to great effect, distributing the contents of Mykotronx's dumpsters to the world, showing their complicity, their payoffs, their deals with government agencies, etc. I count these as "monkeywrenchings," and I see them as different from fruitless efforts to sway _public_ opinion. --Tim May There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws. Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!" ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^1398269 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

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suggestions about how best to recruit more public supporters. T-shirts, gimmicks, and suggestions for songs about crypto, for getting t.v. producers to put crypto, pro-privacy themes in their t.v. shows, and so on. All pretty hopeless, wouldn't you say? Why do you say that? Clipper was defeated. People all over the net united and opposed it. Now there is this new threat, but at least defeating Clipper bought some time. There is no reason the same

thousands of thing can't happen again.

The way I remember it, it was only defeated after <oh shit, I'm drawing a blank here what was his name...> at Bell Labs/Lucent Technologies proved that the clipper chip could be counterfeitted and interoperate with "legitimate" clippered devices. Most people didn't even know about the fight, much less take a side. The Code was written by Mr. Blaze, and the law fell apart.