'what cypherpunks is about'
Tim May should learn that holding 'harsh' and 'realistic' opinions require a little substantiation...not ignorence and blind scepticism. Rather than start an argument on third world politics and the like I'll quote two sources that Tim and everyone else ought to check out. These are at the end of this post. Second, ok so cypherpunks is not about the redistribution of wealth is it? How many of you would agree it is about retaining the status quo? Cypherpunks, in my (rather simplistic) opinion, IS about the redistribution of power. Wealth is often seen as a subset of power. The people who control assets today are by and large criminals. This is not a judgement but a simple statement...in the past the main form of power was violence - 'Political power grows from the barrel of a gun.' - Mao More gained through war, pirecy and pillage is today seen as liliy white, by the likes of Tim May. This is ignorence. Look closer. Cypherpunks & crypto gives us a chance today to 'redistribute' the power base from one based on fear, violence etc to one based on information...wait! I didn't say this new power base will be more ethical than the last...who knows? It certainly has the potential to be...that is what cypherpunks is about...to me! To Tim May it's about something very different. But remember people are NOT sheep and nothing lasts forever. Historically, geographic areas such as the third world are not responsible for their current economic climate any more than Tim May is responsible for the economic sucess of the US, or for that matter the criminal acts of Nixon...who is then? Read on MacDuff... Read 'A Fate Worse Than Debt' - Susan George for a popular understanding on the third world debt crisis. This will tell you about 'countless third world deaths' and also the extent of Citibank's involvement. A quote: 'If I were the president of a third world nation...I would be far more frightened by a well dressed gentleman bringing loans from the IMF or Citibank than by a bearded guerrilla muttering threats of revolution.' - Lewis Lapham, Imperial Masquerade, 1990 For an economic perspective on third world debt read: 'Economics for a developing world' - Michael P Todaro, ISBN 0-582-07136-4 Zaid Hassan ph93szh@brunel.ac.uk ps.sorry if this is rather harsh Tim, you sorta annoyed me.
Mr. Hassen wrote:
But remember people are NOT sheep and nothing lasts forever.
Yes, they are, and death does. Loans to third world counties are made (obstensively) to help industry and farming to be developed, and to improve the conditions of the people. It rarely works that way, and I think it is a wasted effort, but it is better than nothing. And yes, I do believe that those _are_ the reasons (at least on of the reasons, others include making sure that markets are open, etc.), and no, I don't believe in the tooth fairy. I would imagine that the repayment rates (i.e. number of defaults) is about the same as the student loan program, and the money used about as wisely. This from someone who went $30,000 in debt for student loans to go to Art School... Petro, Christopher C. petro@suba.com <prefered for any non-list stuff> snow@smoke.suba.com
At 1:30 AM -0600 11/1/96, snow wrote:
Mr. Hassen wrote:
But remember people are NOT sheep and nothing lasts forever.
Yes, they are, and death does.
Loans to third world counties are made (obstensively) to help industry and farming to be developed, and to improve the conditions of the people. It rarely works that way, and I think it is a wasted effort, but it is better than nothing.
We mine the copper they have no money to mine and pay them with worthless trinkets like penicillin, schools, and roads. We are exploiting them. Yep, they are better off in a state of natural grace, eating grubs and with a life expectancy of 35. --Tim May "The government announcement is disastrous," said Jim Bidzos,.."We warned IBM that the National Security Agency would try to twist their technology." [NYT, 1996-10-02] We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^1,257,787-1 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
On Fri, 1 Nov 1996, Timothy C. May wrote:
We mine the copper they have no money to mine and pay them with worthless trinkets like penicillin, schools, and roads.
We are exploiting them.
Yep, they are better off in a state of natural grace, eating grubs and with a life expectancy of 35.
--Tim May
What a perfectly wonderful narrow point of view. You aren't trolling are you? I can't believe you are that naive, but perhaps it hurts too much to see the truth, I know that it hurts me even as I remain powerless to do anything about it. cheers, kinch
"Timothy C. May" <tcmay@got.net> writes:
At 1:30 AM -0600 11/1/96, snow wrote:
Mr. Hassen wrote:
But remember people are NOT sheep and nothing lasts forever.
Yes, they are, and death does.
Loans to third world counties are made (obstensively) to help industry and farming to be developed, and to improve the conditions of the people. It rarely works that way, and I think it is a wasted effort, but it is better than nothing.
We mine the copper they have no money to mine and pay them with worthless trinkets like penicillin, schools, and roads.
We are exploiting them.
Yep, they are better off in a state of natural grace, eating grubs and with a life expectancy of 35.
--Tim May
What is the cryptographic relevance of the above-quoted piece? --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
Timothy C. May wrote:
At 1:30 AM -0600 11/1/96, snow wrote:
Mr. Hassen wrote:
But remember people are NOT sheep and nothing lasts forever.
Yes, they are, and death does.
Loans to third world counties are made (obstensively) to help industry and farming to be developed, and to improve the conditions of the people. It rarely works that way, and I think it is a wasted effort, but it is better than nothing.
We mine the copper they have no money to mine and pay them with worthless trinkets like penicillin, schools, and roads. We are exploiting them. Yep, they are better off in a state of natural grace, eating grubs and with a life expectancy of 35.
Since this is such a perfect example of making unfair judgements about other people's lives (you do agree that their lives are their own, I hope), I'll add a comment: There is nothing wrong with having a life expectancy of 35, if you grow up in a society where the normal lifespan is 35. To say that it's "bad", and that we "simply must" dispense our technology upon "them" is bogus. Sure, most techno-freaks would leap at the chance to expand their own lifespans to, say, 200+ years (with good health), and acquire nifty advanced techno devices as well should some unforseen advanced race or species dispense that stuff on us. But think about that for a minute. You can't assume that the visitors are going to let you just have all of that, and all you have to do is work hard and suck up to them and you'll be rewarded, etc. "Those people" in "those countries" are where they are not because they don't have money and technology per se, it's because of what's in their minds. I'll support a neighborly approach when that's what we're talking about, but you and me aren't going over "there" with the Boy Scouts to lend them a hand, now, are we? No, we're going to collect taxes and send the Government instead. Everybody fantasizes about something for nothing, even when the fantasy is U.S. giving "those people" something they "really need". Fooey.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Dale Thorn wrote:
"Those people" in "those countries" are where they are not because they don't have money and technology per se, it's because of what's in their minds. I'll support a neighborly approach when that's what we're talking about, but you and me aren't going over "there" with the Boy Scouts to lend them a hand, now, are we?
Some of us do. But anyway... what was cypherpunks about again? I've had more focused discussions about crypto on alt.politics.white-power. Seriously. - -rich boy scout/esperanza - --- [This message has been signed by an auto-signing service. A valid signature means only that it has been received at the address corresponding to the signature and forwarded.] -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 Comment: Gratis auto-signing service iQBFAwUBMnr5dioZzwIn1bdtAQHsKwGAhOKOUZJ6OBbwjYMZkTDPmNaLu0d3mY8n 4QkjPCWdP4NV3VTf7G/7fEkPk//ICKl7 =dWh2 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
participants (7)
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Dale Thorn -
Dave Kinchlea -
dh12＠dial.pipex.com -
dlv＠bwalk.dm.com -
Rich Graves -
snow -
Timothy C. May