Re: PLO censoring pro-Iraqi sentiments
Eric Tune writes:
You know Tim, I respect most of what you write, and I respect you in that you have your own free will and opinions and the right to express them, but what you have forgotten in your anarchistic ravings is that PEOPLE DIED IN SOMALIA, including a personal friend of mine. They were all somebody's son, brother, and friend.
So were the 100,000 Iraqi military killed by Bush, and the 1,000,000 Iraqis of all ages killed by US sanctions. So were the civilians bulldozed into mass graves in Panama, so the country would look neat and tidy for the arrival of the ReportWhores.
What the world needs now is not another mass killing of Iraqis by the United States government. What the world really needs now is a fifty dollar weapon that sinks aircraft carriers.
These soldiers went where they were ordered to go, as befits a soldier, and tried to do the job they were given and accomplish the mission, and for that EVERY ONE OF THEM DESERVES Y O U R RESPECT. I am quite sure the vast majority of them thought it was patently stupid to go to Somalia in the first place, but a soldier follows orders, legal ones, and tries to get the job done regardless of personal feelings.
Most of them would probably follow "legal orders" to fire upon American civilians too.
You ever served in the military? Unless you've been under fire, you should shut the fuck up about shit you know nothing about nor could comprehend.
The next time you "cheer to see the U.S. gets its tail kicked", why don't you think about the American troops who lost their lives or were maimed, or who were doing something they may have been personally and morally against, but they chose to be professional soldiers, and instead of displaying cowardice, they tried to do what was asked of them.
The universe does not view the lives of Americans as more valuable than the lives of people murdered by Americans.
Listen up jerk, in case you didn't get any news during 1990, Iraq attacked Kuwait, and murdered thousands of Kuwaitis. "Don't start no shit and there won't be no shit"... ever heard that, asshole? America would have never been involved if Iraq hadn't invaded Kuwait. I was there, in a Bradley, and we could have rolled all over Baghdad, especially after what the Iraqi bastards did to the Kuwaitis, but it wasn't done. Unfortunately Saddam Hussein stayed in power. There will not be a shred of a chance for peace in that region until he is DEAD. I don't think air strikes are the answer to this, and I think Clinton is a moron for his present policy, War is the worst thing that man can do to other men, and there is no such thing as "the good fight"... war is hell. Period. Until you have been in a war, you have no idea of what you are talking about. But if you think that Iraq was "more right" or better yet, "less wrong", you need a radical lobotomy, or perhaps you've already had one.
Think of the innocent civilians who inevitably die in the conflicts started by the megalomaniacs like Saddam Hussein.
You mean all those melted child car seats and scorched teddy bears on George Bush's "Highway of Death" leading out of Kuwait?
Evidently, you again know nothing of what the Iraqis did to the Kuwaitis on their way in to Kuwait. Get educated, shithead.
Unfortunately, for all the braying Americans do about freedom, Americans can never be truly happy unless someone is telling them what to do, or they are telling someone else what to do, or they are bombing someone for not doing what they have told them to do.
The only thing Americans understand is dead Americans. The only thing.
You sound like nothing more than disillusioned, spoiled, pompous asshole when you presume to know what Americans "understand". Your anarchistic ravings only mark you for the idiot you are. To everyone else besides Cordian who reads this, my apologies, but for all it's failings, I still have pride in America... ...not for all the foreign policy bullshit or the way the government fucks us over, or starts wars, or sticks their collective nose in other countries business...but for the fact that as a whole people, Americans still keep trying, everyday, to be a better people. I'm proud of that. Eric Tune
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- In <3.0.5.32.19980219204255.007c3680@pop3.lvcablemodem.com>, on 02/19/98 at 08:42 PM, "Eric J. Tune" <paladin@lvcablemodem.com> said:
Eric Tune writes:
You know Tim, I respect most of what you write, and I respect you in that you have your own free will and opinions and the right to express them, but what you have forgotten in your anarchistic ravings is that PEOPLE DIED IN SOMALIA, including a personal friend of mine. They were all somebody's son, brother, and friend.
So were the 100,000 Iraqi military killed by Bush, and the 1,000,000 Iraqis of all ages killed by US sanctions. So were the civilians bulldozed into mass graves in Panama, so the country would look neat and tidy for the arrival of the ReportWhores.
What the world needs now is not another mass killing of Iraqis by the United States government. What the world really needs now is a fifty dollar weapon that sinks aircraft carriers.
These soldiers went where they were ordered to go, as befits a soldier, and tried to do the job they were given and accomplish the mission, and for that EVERY ONE OF THEM DESERVES Y O U R RESPECT. I am quite sure the vast majority of them thought it was patently stupid to go to Somalia in the first place, but a soldier follows orders, legal ones, and tries to get the job done regardless of personal feelings.
Most of them would probably follow "legal orders" to fire upon American civilians too.
You ever served in the military? Unless you've been under fire, you should shut the fuck up about shit you know nothing about nor could comprehend.
The next time you "cheer to see the U.S. gets its tail kicked", why don't you think about the American troops who lost their lives or were maimed, or who were doing something they may have been personally and morally against, but they chose to be professional soldiers, and instead of displaying cowardice, they tried to do what was asked of them.
The universe does not view the lives of Americans as more valuable than the lives of people murdered by Americans.
Listen up jerk, in case you didn't get any news during 1990, Iraq attacked Kuwait, and murdered thousands of Kuwaitis. "Don't start no shit and there won't be no shit"... ever heard that, asshole? America would have never been involved if Iraq hadn't invaded Kuwait. I was there, in a Bradley, and we could have rolled all over Baghdad, especially after what the Iraqi bastards did to the Kuwaitis, but it wasn't done. Unfortunately Saddam Hussein stayed in power. There will not be a shred of a chance for peace in that region until he is DEAD. I don't think air strikes are the answer to this, and I think Clinton is a moron for his present policy, War is the worst thing that man can do to other men, and there is no such thing as "the good fight"... war is hell. Period. Until you have been in a war, you have no idea of what you are talking about. But if you think that Iraq was "more right" or better yet, "less wrong", you need a radical lobotomy, or perhaps you've already had one.
Think of the innocent civilians who inevitably die in the conflicts started by the megalomaniacs like Saddam Hussein.
You mean all those melted child car seats and scorched teddy bears on George Bush's "Highway of Death" leading out of Kuwait?
Evidently, you again know nothing of what the Iraqis did to the Kuwaitis on their way in to Kuwait. Get educated, shithead.
Unfortunately, for all the braying Americans do about freedom, Americans can never be truly happy unless someone is telling them what to do, or they are telling someone else what to do, or they are bombing someone for not doing what they have told them to do.
The only thing Americans understand is dead Americans. The only thing.
You sound like nothing more than disillusioned, spoiled, pompous asshole when you presume to know what Americans "understand". Your anarchistic ravings only mark you for the idiot you are.
To everyone else besides Cordian who reads this, my apologies, but for all it's failings, I still have pride in America... ...not for all the foreign policy bullshit or the way the government fucks us over, or starts wars, or sticks their collective nose in other countries business...but for the fact that as a whole people, Americans still keep trying, everyday, to be a better people. I'm proud of that.
Wow! I haven't seen this kind of reactionary temper-tantrum since the last 4th of July BBQ down at the VFW. So how long were you in?? Usally this type of "God save the King" mentality wears off after a boot has been in the field for a few months. For the more febal minded it lasts longer but they usally never make it above Cpl. or 1st Lt. - -- - --------------------------------------------------------------- William H. Geiger III http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii Geiger Consulting Cooking With Warp 4.0 Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail. OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html - --------------------------------------------------------------- Tag-O-Matic: Bugs come in through open Windows. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3a-sha1 Charset: cp850 Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000 iQCVAwUBNO0JkI9Co1n+aLhhAQGeAQP/Z3zTLezopxF3l7vb6tRDuT3YDFTucr1d h3JQ5ieWdFAPdNQmvlvnXNU2L7JoQW5J34b3gYnA9M3+xNK8DRBcifpojLkQItPj zoZfta2A2giGgNsRpdmPrrrQUtMWhhN4SzOllwsidayCQiLxVX3eaQCOzEIIRpSy aWD6KU0wyGY= =aTfM -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- on or about 980219:2334, in <199802200612.BAA31481@users.invweb.net>, "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net> was purported to have expostulated to perpetuate an opinion: [chop 80% of the various rantings]
Tune said:
You sound like nothing more than disillusioned, spoiled, pompous asshole when you presume to know what Americans "understand". Your anarchistic ravings only mark you for the idiot you are.
To everyone else besides Cordian who reads this, my apologies, but for all it's failings, I still have pride in America... ...not for all the foreign policy bullshit or the way the government fucks us over, or starts wars, or sticks their collective nose in other countries business...but for the fact that as a whole people, Americans still keep trying, everyday, to be a better people. I'm proud of that.
Wow! I haven't seen this kind of reactionary temper-tantrum since the last 4th of July BBQ down at the VFW.
really? you start yours with a prayer followed by the statement: OK, fellas, friendly game; all guns on the table...
So how long were you in?? Usally this type of "God save the King" mentality wears off after a boot has been in the field for a few months. For the more febal minded it lasts longer but they usally never make it above Cpl. or 1st Lt.
very true, for those who have never been deployed into the face of the beast. those who have been in combat have an entirely different attitude. the peacetime Army is a often a goldbrickers union for lack of something better to do. and it is definitely not true in the Corps with the exception of the few who take the two year stint and four years active reserve and are somewhat disillusioned by the inactivity as they never hit the floats or are otherwise deployed. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3i Charset: latin1 Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be iQBVAwUBNO0eL7R8UA6T6u61AQFotgH/c8XYz0psrJvjc5ibaf8PnY9aB1Y0hqX7 m11PvGFKKxtiRtDDOqv6zH0og68g1zpfJLcDBoI/GaFtOEctIfsEGg== =cGsI -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
"Eric J. Tune" <paladin@lvcablemodem.com> writes:
You ever served in the military? Unless you've been under fire, you should shut the fuck up about shit you know nothing about nor could comprehend.
Similarly, only rapists should judge other rapists, only murderers other murderers, only SS members other SS members, and only soldiers other soldiers, only tyrants other tyrants, only gas-chamber operators other gas-chamber operators. Waaaaaaa! The Baby-Napalmers of the world cry, no one "understands" us.
Listen up jerk, in case you didn't get any news during 1990, Iraq attacked Kuwait, and murdered thousands of Kuwaitis.
Iraq, mislead by the US into believing that there would be no interference in its long-standing dispute with Kuwait, annexed it, providing a pretense for the US to do some dirty work for the Israelis, who did not want to tolerate an Arab military giant in their region. Kuwait provoked Iraq far more than places like Panama and Grenada have provoked the United States, when US forces poured in to remove existing governments, and install regimes sympathetic to Washington, also killing thousands of uninvolved civilians. Then again, perhaps you believed the touching "Baby Incubator" story performed by the daughter of the Kuwaiti ambassador for an appreciative Congress, who were unaware of who she was, or that she was lying through her teeth. Perhaps you were also unaware that American public opinion during the Persian Gulf War was under the control of a domestic public relations firm hired by the government of Kuwait.
"Don't start no shit and there won't be no shit"... ever heard that, asshole
America always manages to find some pretense to fight the wars it decides to fight. Sometimes there is a staged attack, and an arrangement for allies to "invite" us into the conflict. Other times, some imagined threat, like the chance that an infant formula factory "could be used" to produce material that "might be used" for chemical or biological warfare. Most of us who have watched the antics of America for more than a few decades see through the transparent rhetoric employed in such situations to manufacture public consent.
America would have never been involved if Iraq hadn't invaded Kuwait.
Well, at least another pretense would have had to be engineered to implement the ZoG agenda.
I was there, in a Bradley,
Next time, try under a Bradley.
and we could have rolled all over Baghdad, especially after what the Iraqi bastards did to the Kuwaitis, but it wasn't done. Unfortunately Saddam Hussein stayed in power. There will not be a shred of a chance for peace in that region until he is DEAD.
Right. Let's kill the only secular leader of the only secular government in a region full of religious fruitcakes that either believe that God has awarded them other peoples land in the Bible, or that lopping off body parts is the appropriate punishment for criticizing nonsense. I didn't see Sadaam Hussein issuing any death sentences against Salmon Rushdie.
I don't think air strikes are the answer to this, and I think Clinton is a moron for his present policy, War is the worst thing that man can do to other men, and there is no such thing as "the good fight"... war is hell. Period. Until you have been in a war, you have no idea of what you are talking about.
It's interesting that the nation that engaged in continuous national nonstop whining over the kids in the exploding federal building daycare center commits such crimes at the drop of a hat in other countries, merely to send some ambiguous foreign policy message.
But if you think that Iraq was "more right" or better yet, "less wrong", you need a radical lobotomy, or perhaps you've already had one.
I would be more than happy to put Sadaam in charge of Israel, Iran, Saudi Arabia, and the UAE. You know, Iraq is a multicultural nation. It even has a Jewish communuity. That's why "secular" is always better than a religious state stuffing organized superstition and paternalistic Sky-God fairy tales down the throats of its subjects.
Evidently, you again know nothing of what the Iraqis did to the Kuwaitis on their way in to Kuwait. Get educated, shithead.
So the fact that Iraqis may have mistreated Kuwaitis justifies George Bush's order to destroy "everything that moves" on the only path out of the impending American invasion, including civilians fleeing for their lives with children in carseats? That's the kind of logic I'd expect from a professional babykiller.
You sound like nothing more than disillusioned, spoiled, pompous asshole when you presume to know what Americans "understand". Your anarchistic ravings only mark you for the idiot you are.
If you'd get your commanding officers cock out of your ass, and stop listening to the propaganda they feed you, then maybe you would be worthy of further discussion. You have the choice to not join an army that commits atrocities on foreign soil, and to refuse orders which conflict with whatever remaining conscience you have. If you join, and you go over there, and you kill people, then you are no better than any other murderer. Middle Eastern affairs pose no threat to the Constitution of the United States, which is, after all, the only thing you are empowered to defend by shooting at others.
To everyone else besides Cordian who reads this, my apologies, but for all it's failings, I still have pride in America... ...not for all the foreign policy bullshit or the way the government fucks us over, or starts wars, or sticks their collective nose in other countries business...but for the fact that as a whole people, Americans still keep trying, everyday, to be a better people. I'm proud of that.
America needs a low-level format. Soon. -- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"
EC
Kuwait provoked Iraq far more than places like Panama and Grenada have provoked the United States, when US forces poured in to remove existing governments, and install regimes sympathetic to Washington, also killing thousands of uninvolved civilians.
Then again, perhaps you believed the touching "Baby Incubator" story performed by the daughter of the Kuwaiti ambassador for an appreciative Congress, who were unaware of who she was, or that she was lying through her teeth. Perhaps you were also unaware that American public opinion during the Persian Gulf War was under the control of a domestic public relations firm hired by the government of Kuwait.
wow!! well said. a great book that nails this: "toxic sludge is good for you" about the public relations industry and how it's playing the tune while rome burns.
America always manages to find some pretense to fight the wars it decides to fight. Sometimes there is a staged attack, and an arrangement for allies to "invite" us into the conflict. Other times, some imagined threat, like the chance that an infant formula factory "could be used" to produce material that "might be used" for chemical or biological warfare. Most of us who have watched the antics of America for more than a few decades see through the transparent rhetoric employed in such situations to manufacture public consent.
yes, and the cracks are starting to show-- how about that recent rally in Ohio or whereever it was in which the audience refused to stick to the "wag the dog" script? hee, hee. maybe there is hope for us yet eh? one of the questions: "if other governments of the middle east have weapons of mass destruction, why are we singling out iraq?"
America needs a low-level format. Soon.
ouch!! that would hurt!! another problem you don't mention is that the population has let our own government run away. we send masses tax money but fail to hold our own government responsible. "I am not responsible" is the motto of immature children. we have an entire nation of them, many on this list.
At 8:42 PM -0800 2/19/98, Eric J. Tune wrote:
You ever served in the military? Unless you've been under fire, you should shut the fuck up about shit you know nothing about nor could comprehend. ... Listen up jerk.... "Don't start no shit and there won't be no shit"... ever heard that, asshole? ... Get educated, shithead. ... You sound like nothing more than disillusioned, spoiled, pompous asshole
Such eloquence! He must've learned it in the military. Very persuasive, too. Persuasive to a certain kind of person. Wasted on this list, though. --Tim May Just Say No to "Big Brother Inside" ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^3,021,377 | black markets, collapse of governments.
What the world needs now is not another mass killing of Iraqis by the United States government. What the world really needs now is a fifty dollar weapon that sinks aircraft carriers.
The Stinger missile and the bazooka have been a good start, letting local defenders stop the expensive tools of attacking armies. At 08:42 PM 2/19/98 -0800, Eric J. Tune wrote:
These soldiers went where they were ordered to go, as befits a soldier, and tried to do the job they were given and accomplish the mission, and for that EVERY ONE OF THEM DESERVES Y O U R RESPECT. I am quite sure the vast majority of them thought it was patently stupid to go to Somalia in the first place, but a soldier follows orders, legal ones, and tries to get the job done regardless of personal feelings.
Following stupid orders gets your fellow soldiers killed stupidly. Following immoral orders gets your fellow soldiers killed, and gets the opposing soldiers killed, and gets the civilian collateral damage killed, and the fact that you're following orders doesn't absolve you of guilt. Once you're in the war, you're also fighting to keep your buddies from getting killed, and to keep from getting killed yourself, and if the orders are tactically correct and sacrifice you and your buddies as the price of an overall victory, that's the price of being a soldier. But if you shouldn't be there, you shouldn't be there, no matter how competent and brave and patriotic you're being while you're there. Most soldiers I've known believe in following orders, and the politicians who send them there pull out all the stops to keep them believing it.
Listen up jerk, in case you didn't get any news during 1990, Iraq attacked Kuwait, and murdered thousands of Kuwaitis. ... America would have never been involved if Iraq hadn't invaded Kuwait.
Yeah? In 1980, Iraq attacked Iran, and the US sold them weapons, and Saddam was Reagan & Bush's good buddy and ally. And in 1990 when Saddam was talking with the US Ambassador about their border problem, she said the US had no interest in such a purely local problem. OK, it wasn't like we had to twist Saddam's arm to get him to invade; he is a militarist asshole - but in 1980 that was a Good Thing. And in 19{pick a number} Israel invaded South Lebanon - Good Thing Too! Is it possible that it's got a lot more to do with US Foreign policy or geopolitical interests? Or about the fact that the US Military- Industrial Complex was severely threatened by the lack of Commies? Or just partly because George Bush's Neilsen ratings were down and he'd had good results invading Panama? Or that the Ayatollah had gotten rid of one of America's favorite dictators in Iran just a year or two before (even though he disliked Commies too)? Or because the US Army wanted to make sure everybody knows that they can kick anybody's ass, anywhere, anytime? In the process of demolishing Iraq, Bush's army killed hundreds of thousands of civilians, demolishing much of the civilian infrastructure for safe drinking water (which probably killed more people than the bombing did), as well as killing tens of thousands of draftee soldiers. If the objective had been to get rid of Saddam, a couple dozen good Mossad agents or Green Berets could have taken him out quickly and efficiently. That wasn't the objective.
I don't think air strikes are the answer to this, and I think Clinton is a moron for his present policy,
He's a sleaze, but no moron - his objectives are maintaining his own political influence, which he's very good at, as opposed to doing anything positive for the Kuwaitis or Iraqis or Americans....
Evidently, you again know nothing of what the Iraqis did to the Kuwaitis on their way in to Kuwait. Get educated, shithead. Probably about like what they did to the Iranians or what the Israelis did to the South Lebanese, except that it was Bad instead of Good.
To everyone else besides Cordian who reads this, my apologies, but for all it's failings, I still have pride in America... ...not for all the foreign policy bullshit or the way the government fucks us over, or starts wars, or sticks their collective nose in other countries business...but for the fact that as a whole people, Americans still keep trying, everyday, to be a better people. I'm proud of that.
I agree. And telling the government to stop initiating wars and trying to get the people not to jump in line behind a propaganda bandwagon are a good part of trying to be a better people. Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart@pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639
participants (7)
-
Attila T. Hun -
Bill Stewart -
Eric Cordian -
Eric J. Tune -
Tim May -
Vladimir Z. Nuri -
William H. Geiger III