Re: A possible solution
At 5:35 PM 11/28/94, Aron Freed wrote:
Ok. You all have basically defeated the stiffer fines issue.
The one issue remaining is do we want to live a life of anarchy.
That depends on what you mean by "anarchy." I'm sure there are a few anarchists on the list, but they probably don't mean the same thing as you do by "anarchy".
Do we want to live in total isolation? Do we want to be completely paranoid and be always looking over our shoulder?
Many of us already are. Except the kind of rules you are describing would increase our paranoia, not lessen it. The people we're already looking over our shoulder for are the people who would be enforcing the rules you are proposing.
You tell me how we solve that problem.
I still don't understand what "that problem" is. How does the existence of cryptography (which is of course what started this discussion. fittingly, since we're on cypherpunks here) make anyone live in total isolation, or be completely paranoid, or be always looking over his shoulder? I don't understand how strong cryptography does any of those things. What exactly is this "problem" that you see, and how is it related to cryptography?
I for one do not want to touch "1984" territory, but I don't want to live in an anarchy either.
About half the people I talk to think we're already "touching" _1984_ territory, and about the other half think we're already living in an "anarchy", so appearantly it's in the eye of the beholder. They mean "anarchy" in a negative sense of course, the same as you. I wouldn't mind living in an anarchy if it's the kind Mikhail Bakunin or Emma Goldman or Alexander Berkman or Petr Kropotkin advocated. You might pick up a book by any of those authors at your local public library, you might be surprised.
Jonathan Rochkind wrote:
At 5:35 PM 11/28/94, Aron Freed wrote:
Ok. You all have basically defeated the stiffer fines issue.
The one issue remaining is do we want to live a life of anarchy.
That depends on what you mean by "anarchy." I'm sure there are a few anarchists on the list, but they probably don't mean the same thing as you do by "anarchy".
Indeed, different things are meant by the overloaded term "anarchy." Three fairly different meanings are in common use: 1. Anarchy(1) -- Chaos, lawlessness, people killing each other at will, law of the jungle, mother rapers, father rapers, and other "anarchic" things. This is thee "popular" notion of anarchy, associated with bomb-throwers, nihilism, terrorism, and disorder. (Never mind that most terrorists work for political causes, and that most nihilists are too deeply into their coffee house discussions to do anything.) 2. Anarchy(2) -- "Whoever denies authority and fights against it is an anarchist." (S. Faure) Social change through communal self-ordering, etc. (I'm not an expert in Anarchy(2), and I for sure don't have the rhetoric down!) Often associated with left-leaning views. Also linked to "anarcho-syndicalism." Georgee Woodcock's "Anarchism" is a good introduction. 3. Anarchy(3) -- Anarcho-capitalism. (Not to be confused with the arachno-capitalism of the Web, or th narco-capitalism of the CIA.) The free-market, libertarian approach of people choosing who they will trade labor, goods, or money with. David Friedman's "The Machinery of Freedom" is a good place to look. Most anarchy(3) supporters would argue that anarchy(2) implies anarchy(3), that some people will have more wealth than others for "normal" reasons (greater talent, harder working, willingness to be bond trader instead of crystal healer, etc.). I lack the will to make the arguments here. Robert Nozick's "Anarchy, the State, and Utopia" is a thoughtful argument in favor of Anarchy(2) leading inevitably to Anarchy(3). Anarchy(1)--people killing each other at will--is of course what America and many other countries hav as the default. Conclusions are left for another time. The links to crypto are very clear: strong crypto ---> anarchy(3) Which is what I call "crypto anarchy." Lots of discussion of this in my Cyphernomicon FAQ. --Tim May -- .......................................................................... Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@netcom.com | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero 408-688-5409 | knowledge, reputations, information markets, W.A.S.T.E.: Aptos, CA | black markets, collapse of governments. Higher Power: 2^859433 | Public Key: PGP and MailSafe available. Cypherpunks list: majordomo@toad.com with body message of only: subscribe cypherpunks. FAQ available at ftp.netcom.com in pub/tcmay
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