Re: Crypto Kong penetration.
-- At 05:31 PM 1/15/98 +0000, Steve Mynott wrote:
Ummm why reinvent the PGP wheel
Well I am not "reinventing the wheel". Crypto Kong implements a different identity model. It does not suppose that there are "true names". This leads to substantially easier identity management (largely by abolishing identity management) As a necessary consequence of this, if you happen to be communicating with two different Bob Jones, Crypto Kong does not attempt to discover which one is the one true Bob Jones and which is the evil man in the middle Bob Jones. It merely keeps them distinct by applying different labels to them. Secondly, PGP simply is not being adopted by the masses. Of course right now, two weeks after release, Crypto Kong is not being adopted by the masses either, but with very little identity management, it is far easier for the masses to use. If you try and shove that identity stuff onto people they will not do it. Too much like hard work. They will happily let the government licensed authorities do it for them. The PGP model clearly has not flown yet, and it is not going to fly. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG mMObRqZXvGz3OkHZyNWBCEGt5ZpZtUG5Y19i3tsX 4SfFX2/pUCYwhAm6n1u5xBLG/xL9LYsSZcznxXI8S --------------------------------------------------------------------- We have the right to defend ourselves and our property, because of the kind of animals that we are. True law derives from this right, not from the arbitrary power of the state. http://www.jim.com/jamesd/
On Thu, Jan 15, 1998 at 12:08:46PM -0800, Tim May wrote:
The fact is that most people don't see the need to either secure their messages against eavesdroppers or to sign their messages. But PGP was "cool" and rode the same wave that "Wired" rode.
Few messages to the cypherpunks list are signed. -- Steve
James Donald <jamesd@echeque.com>:
On Thu, Jan 15, 1998 at 12:08:46PM -0800, Tim May wrote:
The fact is that most people don't see the need to either secure their messages against eavesdroppers or to sign their messages. But PGP was "cool" and rode the same wave that "Wired" rode.
Few messages to the cypherpunks list are signed.
It might in fact be a dumb move to sign messages to the cypherpunks list -- proving that you wrote whatever, when for example the USG adds cypherpunks to it's growing list of terrorist organisations. Similarly it might be dumb to sign private messages to other subscribers -- some of them may turn out to be narcs, or may be coereced into narcing etc. You can use non-transferable signatures for private email, but it's probably better not to sign publically posting messages, unless you have a persistent anonymous nym unlinkable with your meat space persona. Adam -- Now officially an EAR violation... Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/ print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<> )]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`
On Fri, Jan 16, 1998 at 03:30:05PM +0000, Adam Back typed:
You can use non-transferable signatures for private email, but it's probably better not to sign publically posting messages, unless you have a persistent anonymous nym unlinkable with your meat space persona.
Hmm this is a very good point which may explain the limited use of PGP on this list anyway. I also wonder whether the low uptake of PGP is more due to it being too hard to use between different mailers and too hard to use generally for the nontechnical. SMIME of course despite bad cypherpunk karma is easy and maybe even works between mailers. -- Steve Mynott <steve@tightrope.demon.co.uk> tel: 0956 265761 pgp: 1024/D9C69DF9 88 91 7A 48 40 72 BD AC 4D 71 59 47 01 AC 56 E9 There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle. --A. Einstein
On Thu, 15 Jan 1998, James A. Donald wrote:
Secondly, PGP simply is not being adopted by the masses. Of course right now, two weeks after release, Crypto Kong is not being adopted by the masses either, but with very little identity management, it is far easier for the masses to use.
If you try and shove that identity stuff onto people they will not do it. Too much like hard work. They will happily let the government licensed authorities do it for them. The PGP model clearly has not flown yet, and it is not going to fly.
IMHO, this is pure grade A bullshit. If you included PGP in MsMail, and Eudora and pine and elm from the get go, everyone would use it. Poeple use what they have and few learn about what they could use. PGP for the masses has been a widely discussed topic here. Unless you can convice the mailer makers to include Crypto Kong in the mailers, you're not gonna get any mass adoption either. Still it's likely to be much less than PGP anyway since it's already been out for ages. Still there are plenty of plugins for Eudora to do PGP mail, and those who know about it and need it use it. The rest, well, they don't know and won't know until someone snoops their mail and they get a bug up their asses to get privacy. Regardless of how good your program, if you ignore the basic facts and stick to "Crypto Kong has feature X,Y,Z which PGP lacks" you won't get anywhere either. Mind you I'm not comparing PGP, nor Crypto Kong on any feature or security level, just basic human nature. If you get Microsoft to incorporate it in every copy of win 98 and Office, you can bet fuckloads of people will use it. If you can get all the ISP's out there that offer service and software to include it, you can bet a lot of people will use it, etc. =====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos============== .+.^.+.| Ray Arachelian |Prying open my 3rd eye. So good to see |./|\. ..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were |/\|/\ <--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run |\/|\/ ../|\..| "A toast to Odin, |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/. .+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were.... |..... ======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================
At 10:36 AM -0800 1/15/98, James A. Donald wrote:
Secondly, PGP simply is not being adopted by the masses. Of course right now, two weeks after release, Crypto Kong is not being adopted by the masses either, but with very little identity management, it is far easier for the masses to use.
If you try and shove that identity stuff onto people they will not do it. Too much like hard work. They will happily let the government licensed authorities do it for them. The PGP model clearly has not flown yet, and it is not going to fly.
James Donald needs to be arrested. Or at least be threatened with prosecution. I am persuaded that a big, big reason for PGP's success was the threatened, looming prosecution of Phil Zimmemann by forces of the Evil Empire. The many news stories, favorable magazine profiles, and general publicity all caused PGP to be adopted as a kind of "Blue Ribbon Campaign" (a la the CDA). The fact is that most people don't see the need to either secure their messages against eavesdroppers or to sign their messages. But PGP was "cool" and rode the same wave that "Wired" rode. The recent corporatization of PGP, with the mandatory voluntary inclusion of key recovery features in 5.5, and the purchase of PGP, Inc. by Network Associates all signal big changes in this "little guy" image. How successful PGP will be in the future depends on a bunch of factors, but the "coolness" factor has certainly disappeared almost completely. If James Donald wants some similar publicity for Donkey Kong, er, Crypto Kong, then he'll have to arrange some similar publicity stunts. Otherwise it will languish in obscurity. --Tim May The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^2,976,221 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
participants (5)
-
Adam Back -
James A. Donald -
Ray Arachelian -
Steve Mynott -
Tim May