David Lambert <dcl@panix.com> writes:

Peter Trei <trei@process.com> wrote:

...

Terms like 'cypherpunk' and 'cryptoanarchy' tend to pigeonhole us as nutcases for many people, and are a barrier to getting our ideas across. I'm not saying this pigeonholing is correct - in fact I despise people who judge a book by it's cover, but so many people DO make such snap judgements that we need to take this into account when talking to the general public.

Two of the responses to the "An opportunity..." post unapologetically admitted that they refused to read the text of the message due to the presence of the word "cypherpunk" in the first sentence.

Shows you what we're up against.

BTW, I'm not for changing the name of the list, but I do see the logic in a more establishment-friendly name to use when lobbying the public.

There is likely some truth to the cypherpunk turning some people off before they listen, but also as has already been said 'cypherpunks' has it advantages too: catchy, gets the media imagination, and has an established reputation, and set of accomplishmensts. One thing I have been thinking would be nice would be a USENET newsgroup, as mailing lists are a step away from easy access which some people never make. It makes it less easy to browse and see what it's about, interacting with majordomo software might seem very intuitive to most members, but not all will be so comfortable signing up their mailbox (which they possibly pay for per K), and may indeed lack the expertise required to do the job. There are serveral archives of cpunks, but these don't tend to be as well known as newsgroups. More people might come across cypherpunks ideas, and the technology for remailers, disk encryptors, discussions of nym servers, steganorgraphy, IPSEC, etc if they were in a newsgroup, perhaps even within the comp, soc, or sci hierarchies. One thing I have discovered in myself is a reluctance to subscribe to too many mailing lists, as the volume, and management of the resulting traffic piped your way can be overwelming (yes I know there are various filters to split off traffic into separate mbox files). I think it is a shame that things like the nym server discussion which sounded very interesting to me got split off into a separate group, I'd just as soon see the discussion here, for reluctance to subscribe to yet more groups reasons, and because it sounded like it wasn't very high volume anyway. Same for the stego group discussions. If it's all in one place at least I can skim that for interesting things. Both of those discussions I think would contribute to the signal ratio here. But, Peter's stated aims sound useful, of promulgating cypherpunks technolgy, and ideas to as large an audience as possible. Definately a very important aim, and one that lots of people already devote some time and thought to. Might I suggest that a newsgroup would be a way to go? There are already a number of security, privacy, and crypto related groups, but they tend to have their own pattern of flow, you know penet.fi problems on alt.privacy.anon-server, alt.privacy (dunno not read much), alt.security.pgp pgp usage, David Sterlight fueled discussions, some ITAR stuff, talk.politics.crypto, crypto politics, comp.org.eff.talk, there must be a few others. Peter's FAQ like document was very nicely worded for avoidance of any connotations of conspiracy or 'punkery' which might put off the less adventurous souls, the more conservative. How about it? Reckon cypherpunks as a group has enough readers to hmm, push through a vote for group creation, if the majority thought it was a useful exercise. A group soley for what? cypherpunks technology, social impacts and education, a place where someone would go with security questions, and to learn about the future of personal and corporate security on the net. If a few people frequented it, with the sort of diligence that a number of people spend time contributing to the alt.security.pgp group, and a useful set of pointers, and FAQs posted frequently, it might become a useful resource. One URL which I haven't seen pushed all that much which impressed me a lot for a very comprehensive list of cypherpunks technology, what it is and where to get it was Tatu Ylonen's pages on crypto, and crypto apps: http://www.cs.hut.fi/ssh/crypto/ A resource that would look good with a support newsgroup for discussion of just such technology. I would have thought that if anyone was interested to set up such a group (Peter? - your initiative?), that you could tone down the 'cypherpunks' name if you felt it would further the cause of giving the newsgroup wider appeal. I mean perhaps you would mention 'cypherpunks', 'the mailing list', near the end of the FAQ as further resources, and a forum for active discussion, explaining the name first, so that people don't get put off, after they've got that far (read all through your FAQ), presumably they'll be less inclinded to let a label bother them. Adam