Dale Thorn wrote: [snip--left nut]

it would be nice to try to draw more of a connection between the ideas and ideals and the reality of the list, otherwise, we'll all wind up looking like hypocrites.

If I post missives misinterpreting your own words and intentions, then you may no doubt be seen as a hypocrite to the gullible, or to those who choose to limit their world view by reading my posts and killfiling yours. In either case, I don't think this is a reason for you to lose a lot of sleep.

I personally don't see anything wrong with limiting postings to subscribers, as long as subscriptions are open to all. I also don't see anything wrong with warning a poster about commercial messages, or other technical problems such as attaching really huge files to go to the list, since all uncensored forums do this and everyone I know of agrees with it.

To have this option seemed to me to be an area of common agreement among CypherPunks list subscribers at the time of the 'Laker's fans named Bubba' mailboming of the list via forged subscriptions to a sports forum. The attempts to label, as hypocrites, those who thereafter complained about the fascist measures taken by self-appointed list saviors, are nothing more than anal-retentive smoke blowing. I have an efficient ISP provider and can, for a reasonable price, not worry about excessive download time, etc. The real-world reality is that there are those for whom paying to download the results of mailbomb attacks constitutes a denial of service to them. There are undoubtedly also others whose financial and personal time constraints may make a filtered version of the list attractive to them, and thus lead to them retaining their interest in crypto issues, instead of losing interest. I have not seen any of the anti-censorship elements in the CypherPunks suggest that there should not be alternatives available for those whose personal needs and/or interests are better served by various methods of filtering. To attempt to force UCE/Spam on those ill-equipped to deal with it serves no purpose other than to lessen the number of people who will have information in regard to the issues surrounding strong crypto.

The "problem" here (if there is one) is determining SPAM and the like on a case-by-case basis. Suggestions have been floated here, but as far as I know, none have been implemented.

Igor has implemented spam-attack measures, and has been straightforward in both revealing these measures and asking for opinions in regard to his actions and proposals. I do not anticipate Igor resorting to furtive methodologies in self- servingly manipulating posts but, at the same time, I monitor what is going on in the background of the various lists. I regard 'trust' as something that should be undertaken with one's eyes open, just the same.

The real test, of course, is when deletions do occur, whether there are any complaints, and how those complaints are handled.

Thankfully, the CypherPunks list will likely never lack for paranoid subscribers to raise warning flags whenever nefarious activities take place in regard to the list (or when the computer 'burps', either). It is up to the individual subscriber to separate the realities from the delusions. (I myself count on the space aliens to provide me with advice and support from the messages I receive from them when the Scotch I drink shorts out the spaces between the mercury fillings in my teeth. You may have a different method.) -- Toto ----------------------------- "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html