Re: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)
At 11:42 PM 11/14/97 +0900, Joichi Ito wrote:
Oh and by the way:
Article 21 of the Constitution of Japan
Freedom of assembly and association as well as speech, press and all other forms of expression are guaranteed. 2) No censorship shall be maintained, nor shall the secrecy of any means of communication be violated.
"nya nya na nya nya..."
Is that Japanese for "Wassenaar"?
At 9:12 AM -0700 11/14/97, Anonymous wrote:
At 11:42 PM 11/14/97 +0900, Joichi Ito wrote:
Oh and by the way:
Article 21 of the Constitution of Japan
Freedom of assembly and association as well as speech, press and all other forms of expression are guaranteed. 2) No censorship shall be maintained, nor shall the secrecy of any means of communication be violated.
"nya nya na nya nya..."
Is that Japanese for "Wassenaar"?
No. But close. Joichi Ito's keyboard is having that stuck key problem again. What he meant to type was: "nsa nsa nsa nsa nsa..." Which explains why that Japanese-produced RSA chip was suddenly withdrawn from the market shortly after Jim Bidzos held it up in fron of Congress as an example of how foolish the U.S. export laws are. The Japanese stooges were ordered by their masters in Washington to conform to U.S. policy. --Tim May The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^2,976,221 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
At 9:35 AM -0700 11/16/97, Joichi Ito wrote:
At 09:02 97/11/14 -0700, Tim May wrote:
Which explains why that Japanese-produced RSA chip was suddenly withdrawn from the market shortly after Jim Bidzos held it up in fron of Congress as an example of how foolish the U.S. export laws are. The Japanese stooges were ordered by their masters in Washington to conform to U.S. policy.
--Tim May
By the way, the chip was not "withdrawn from the market." MITI has not approved its export. The imporant point is, a recent regulation called the "Gyousei Tetsuzuki Hou" (translates roughly as, "ministry administrative law/guidelines") makes it illegal for a ministry
This is, of course, a distinction without a difference. The point is that NSA was very pissed off that Bidzos would hold up a Japanese chip in front of Congress, thereby proving that export controls were hardly needed or even relevant in today's world. And, almost immediately, the Japanese RSA chip became "unavailable." A longterm Cypherpunk, who can speak up if he desires to, had a few of these chips in the U.S. before the NSA ordered Chobetsu/MITI to halt export (and probably even to halt internal use in products developed for export). He told me the chips had suddenly become "unavailable," with no apparent prospects for them _ever_ becoming available. The stooges in Nippon listen when their masters speak.
to regulate or restrict an activity without a clear and easy to understand process and documentation. MITI's current method of "case-by-case" export permission could technically be viewed as a breach of this law/regulation. Also, the "Gyousei Tetsuzuki Hou" has time limits for ministries to respond to requests. I have informed RSA that they could take MITI to court on this one, but as far as I know, they haven't. So, yes, Japanese stooges were involved, but companies such as RSA haven't taken advantage of their legal position in pushing the export of their products from Japan.
RSA the company may have various reasons for not pushing the issue too hard. For one thing, pissing off the NSA (even more) may cut into business contracts. For another, designing the Japanese chip into products could be a dangerous thing, if the supply is uncertain (and winning one court battle in Japan may not ensure continued supplies). Finally, recall that I publically described threats by NSA agents to have Bidzos "run over in your parking lot." This is the way the Amerikan government works in this era of freedom. It threatens to kill the chief executives of Amerikan companies who don't play along with Big Brother's rules. It leans on allies like Japan and Germany to crack down on crypto products. It ignores import and export laws at will (as yesterday's "executive order" barring import of more rifles shows), and it engages in New World Order/OECD/Wassenaar deal cuttings with other tyrants. Oh, and it holds out the prospect of lucrative contracts to Netscape, Intel, H-P, TIS, and other such companies if they "build in Big Brother."
Maybe we should try to get Mr. Nakatuji to apply for a permit to export his Misty stuff. ;-P
- Joi
P.S. We had a cypherpunks-j meeting the other day and no one knew who this Nakatuji guy was. I thought he might be some anti-Japanese person trying to discredit the Japanese cypherpunks, but another participant pointed out that the curses he launched at Tim were very authentic Japanese so my theory was unlikely. For the record, he is not one of "us". Whatever that means...
Yes, this fits my view that Nakatuji is either an American trolling the list, or some "dark person" (in the Japanese hacker sense) connecting to the Net with his "hotmail" account. That his English is poor is not the real issue. There are plenty of people with poor English skills. No, the issue is that he sends out short trolls, first asking "what am Misty?," then offering to sell documentation on crypto for money sent to him. And he never engages in discussion, broken English or not. I was quite serious when I said in a post a few months back that I'd done some Web and Dejanews searches on his precise name string and had only found some requests for "male pen pals." This is not a "homophobic" remark, just a statement of what I found. (I did the same search several days ago, as Nakatuji once again became news here, and couldn't find any references at all to his exact name. Maybe the sites or archives that carried his pen pal requests, if it was he and not some other with the same name, had flushed this older stuff.) --Tim May The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^2,976,221 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
Someone sent this to me privately. I don't know why he didn't cc: the list. But I'll respect his apparent wishes and excise any clues as to who he is. At 10:37 AM -0700 11/16/97, xxxxxxxxx wrote:
In <v03102823b094cab52ad8@[207.167.93.63]>, on 11/16/97 at 09:26 AM, Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:
(I did the same search several days ago, as Nakatuji once again became news here, and couldn't find any references at all to his exact name. Maybe the sites or archives that carried his pen pal requests, if it was he and not some other with the same name, had flushed this older stuff.)
Well I did some searching myself and the only thing I could find out side of the CP-Archives was the one post to the Einstein Male PenPal webpage using the e-mail address below.
http://cuy.net/~einstein/local/malebook.html
Nobuki Nakatuji <nn1332@galaxynet.or.jp>
Neither the addresses or the name showed anything up on Deja-News or any of the other search engines.
Yes! This was it! This was what I saw. Some crazy "Einstein Male PenPals" stuff. I have no idea why I couldn't find it again...must've used a slightly different search engine, with a slightly different set of reachable nodes. Here's the entry for "Nobuki Nakatuji": My hobbies are playing guitar and listening music. Nobuki Nakatuji <nn1332@galaxynet.or.jp> Takarazuka, Japan - Saturday, December 14, 1996 at 23:34:01 (EST) Is this the same Nobuki Nakatuji asking for money for descriptions of crypto programs? ("What am Misty?"..."You send money, I send description") --Tim May The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^2,976,221 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
At 4:43 PM -0700 11/16/97, Joichi Ito wrote:
who also have domestic political strength. Also, I looked into the "Chobetsu" that you refered to in a previous message and I think you are refering to the "Naikaku Chosashitsu Betsushitsu" which is the group that engages in the often rather shady "super-legal" actions like stamping out political parties and going after cults. I don't think they have any direct involvement in the current
My first knowledge of Chobetsu came from noted intelligence expert Jeffery Richelson's book on intelligence agencies. Also, as I noted some months back, various Web sources cite it. As to the spelling, I'm using Richelson's. He cites Chobetsu's role in various NSA-like activities. (And I recall Seymour Hersh, in "Shootdown," describing some of the SIGINT and COMINT functions of this and other agencies.) My strong suspicion is that Japanese journalists and source are NOT the best place to learn about Japanese SIGINT and COMINT capabilities. Not hard to see some reasons for this.
RSA issue and I wouldn't call them "Japan's NSA." They are more like some kind of secret police. (I can already image the kind of messages I'm going to receive on this list for engaging with you at this level of dialog, but for the benefit of some of the lurkers, I think it's worth it...) My point is, you are probably right that there is some activity by groups like the NSA putting pressure on exposed parts of Japanese government to stifle export of crypto. But... the current Japanese government is not as organized as you might think and there are many different groups with different opinions. I don't think it is
Aside from these issues of whether they're as organized as you think I think they are, all that matters is how quickly they yanked the RSA chip after Bidzos held it up before Congress.
is interested in looking into the detail. I personally think that the impact of Japan's actions is great enough so that it might be worth engaging rather than just writing us off.
Oh, OK. I'll "engage" and not just write Japan off. Please notify me, and us, of the forums where these engagements are occurring. For starters, how about some e-mail addresses of cabinet ministers and other officials.
P.S. I can already see this message going down in a flurry a flames. Although I'm getting used to ignoring irrelevant messages and taking cheap shots at Tim when I have the chance, I'm still not sure if the risk of engaging in dialog "out in the open" is worth the net reputation capital earned after all of the mud is slung. Also, I'm not sure whether giving away all of my tactics just to win an arguement is worth it. Maybe it is better to save those rounds for the real fight. My point is, if people on this list are really going to do anything about crypto I'll continue to weather the attacks and engage in dialog with you. If the point of this list is to just beat each other up and talk about how bad it all is, then I'm going to give up.
This discussion is hardly going down in flames. You're apparently too sensitive to engage in robust debate. Frankly, I've seen no mentions in the American press, let alone the Japanese press, about how Japan caved in to U.S. pressures. (There may have been some minor mentions in the U.S. press, but they had little impact.) So, Joichi, why don't you stir the shit on this one? And I don't mean with "constructive engagement." That's a synonym for inaction. Point out to your Japanese readers the nefarious role the NSA is playing, the role of the U.S. spy facilities in Misakawa Air Force Base, where the NSA and its military liason offices, intercept the communications of Toshiba, Fujitsu, Hitachi, NEC, and so on and feed them, selectively, to U.S. COMINT consumers. (Why Japan and Germany allow U.S. SIGINT facilities in their own territory is a mystery to me...must be some nice payoffs to senior officials.) Declare war on the NSA. You've several times trumpetted the Japanese Constitution as supporting basic rights even more than the Amerikan Constitution does, so this is your chance to say "Fuck the National Security State." Get the RSA chip released widely and quickly. The drug trade in Asia could use it right now. (No, this is not a joke. I favor full availability of any and all drugs to anyone who wants them. This makes the Triads and Yakuza allies in defeating the New World Order. The ComSec 3DES phones are a step in defeating the DEA, Interpol, and other police state agencies, but the RSA chip would make a lot of such things much more interesting.) --Tim May The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^2,976,221 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
At 11:53 PM -0700 11/16/97, Joichi Ito wrote:
Get the RSA chip released widely and quickly. The drug trade in Asia could use it right now.
I am going to actively work on trying to get people like RSA to export their chip, but not necessarily for the drug trade.
I'll just focus on this one point for now.... The "but not necessarily for the drug trade" shows up what I think is a common misconception: that "good users of crypto" can be distinguished from "bad users of crypto." ("But not necessarily for" has another interpretation, that strong crypto is not being developed _for_ the drug trade. This is really the same point--who will use strong crypto is not something easily controlled.) The thoughtful officials who decide crypto policy (there are some) actually understand the fallacy of this notion. They understand that once "unbreakable crypto" is widely available, that once secure phones are for sale at every electronics store, their is no way to distinguish good users, e.g., freedom fighters, from bad users, e.g., terrorists. Or Oceania users, who are our allies, from Eastasia users, who are our enemy (this week). Those of us who support liberty, personal choices, and freedom from state control understand this, too. We understand that strong crypto will help black marketeers keep secrets and avoid surveillance just as it will help civil rights groups. How else could it be? I embrace the use of strong crypto by the "underworld" for the simple reason that historically this has been a major vector for the spread of new technologies. And it tends to undermine governments. And most of what is declared to be contraband, or illegal to consume, is no violation of the real rights of others. (I have used the same sig, with only minor modifications, for more than five years. The inclusion of "black markets, collapse of governments" was deliberate.) --Tim May The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^2,976,221 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
On Sun, 16 Nov 1997, Tim May wrote:
And, almost immediately, the Japanese RSA chip became "unavailable."
Which reminds me of a cryptochip done here in Estonia, which does 768-bit RSA encryption / key exchange and 10Mbps 128-bit IDEA. It should be fairly easy to change RSA length to 1024 or 2048. If someone is curious about the price I could find it out. Jyri Kaljundi jk@stallion.ee AS Stallion Ltd http://www.stallion.ee/
Jyri Kaljundi <jk@stallion.ee> writes:
On Sun, 16 Nov 1997, Tim May wrote:
And, almost immediately, the Japanese RSA chip became "unavailable."
Which reminds me of a cryptochip done here in Estonia, which does 768-bit RSA encryption / key exchange and 10Mbps 128-bit IDEA. It should be fairly easy to change RSA length to 1024 or 2048. If someone is curious about the price I could find it out.
This reminds me how I once did a project on a distinguished gentleman named Jakubaitis. Is he still alive? Oh wait, he's in another country now. :-) Yes, I think many people would be interested to see prices/availability, please post them. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
At 4:43 PM -0700 11/16/97, Joichi Ito wrote:
who also have domestic political strength. Also, I looked into the "Chobetsu" that you refered to in a previous message and I think you are refering to the "Naikaku Chosashitsu Betsushitsu" which is the group that engages in the often rather shady "super-legal" actions like stamping out political parties and going after cults. I don't think they have any direct involvement in the current RSA issue and I wouldn't call them "Japan's NSA." They are more like some kind of secret police. (I can already image the kind of messages I'm going to receive on this list for engaging with you at this level of dialog, but for ...
As I said earlier, Richelson's comprehensive study of foreign intelligence agencies describes it as Chobetsu, as does Hersh. Perhaps there is an issue of transliteration here? I found one of my Web page bookmarks, http://www.onestep.com/milnet/iagency.htm and it lists various SIGINT agencies. As these may be of interest to others, I will include the full list below, including the description of Chobetsu: Principle SIGINT Collection Organizations Mnemonic Service Name Branch Country AFMBW Amt Fur Frenmeldwesen Branch of the West Bundeswehr (Office for Bundeswher Germany Radio Monitoring) AMAN Agaf Modiin (Intelligence Intelligence Corps, Israel Branch of Israeli Defense SIGINT Forces) Chobetsu Ground Self-Defense Forces Investigation Japan Division, Second Section, Annex Chamber CSE Communications Security Under the Department Canada Establishment of Defense DGSE Direction Generale de Information France la Securite Exterieure Directorate, Technical Means Branch, and Evaluations, Prospectives, Orientation Branch GCHQ General Communications Directorate of UK Headquarters SIGINT Operations GCR Groupement de Communications - France (Radio-Electric Communications Group) HSR Hlavni Sprava Rozvedky Directorate D Czecho. (Main Directorate of the Third Department General Staff) NSA National Security Agency Office of SIGINT US (P Group), Analysis of SIGINT SIOS Secondo Reparto (Second Under each of Navy Italy Department Army, and Air Force Intelligence SISMI Servizio perle Informazioni ? Italy e la Sicurezza Militaire (Service for Information and Military Security) TD Technical Department ? China The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^2,976,221 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
To Mr. May and Jito-san and all fellow and aspiring Cypherpunks: The future of technological products threatened by bureaucratic and restrictive governmental interests may lie in the proven business powers of the black market and its related syndicates. Dabi-do dabi-do@juno.com
At 09:02 97/11/14 -0700, Tim May wrote:
At 9:12 AM -0700 11/14/97, Anonymous wrote:
At 11:42 PM 11/14/97 +0900, Joichi Ito wrote: "nsa nsa nsa nsa nsa..."
Which explains why that Japanese-produced RSA chip was suddenly withdrawn from the market shortly after Jim Bidzos held it up in fron of Congress as an example of how foolish the U.S. export laws are. The Japanese stooges were ordered by their masters in Washington to conform to U.S. policy.
--Tim May
True Tim, but we are working on ways of getting it shipped. - Joi -- PGP Key: http://pgp.ai.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x2D9461F1 PGP Fingerprint: 58F3 CA9A EFB8 EB9D DF18 6B16 E48D AF2A 2D94 61F1 Home Page: http://domino.garage.co.jp/jito/joihome.nsf To subscribe to my personal mailing list send mailto:friends-subscribe@ji.to
At 09:02 97/11/14 -0700, Tim May wrote:
Which explains why that Japanese-produced RSA chip was suddenly withdrawn from the market shortly after Jim Bidzos held it up in fron of Congress as an example of how foolish the U.S. export laws are. The Japanese stooges were ordered by their masters in Washington to conform to U.S. policy.
--Tim May
By the way, the chip was not "withdrawn from the market." MITI has not approved its export. The imporant point is, a recent regulation called the "Gyousei Tetsuzuki Hou" (translates roughly as, "ministry administrative law/guidelines") makes it illegal for a ministry to regulate or restrict an activity without a clear and easy to understand process and documentation. MITI's current method of "case-by-case" export permission could technically be viewed as a breach of this law/regulation. Also, the "Gyousei Tetsuzuki Hou" has time limits for ministries to respond to requests. I have informed RSA that they could take MITI to court on this one, but as far as I know, they haven't. So, yes, Japanese stooges were involved, but companies such as RSA haven't taken advantage of their legal position in pushing the export of their products from Japan. Maybe we should try to get Mr. Nakatuji to apply for a permit to export his Misty stuff. ;-P - Joi P.S. We had a cypherpunks-j meeting the other day and no one knew who this Nakatuji guy was. I thought he might be some anti-Japanese person trying to discredit the Japanese cypherpunks, but another participant pointed out that the curses he launched at Tim were very authentic Japanese so my theory was unlikely. For the record, he is not one of "us". Whatever that means... -- PGP Key: http://pgp.ai.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x2D9461F1 PGP Fingerprint: 58F3 CA9A EFB8 EB9D DF18 6B16 E48D AF2A 2D94 61F1 Home Page: http://domino.garage.co.jp/jito/joihome.nsf To subscribe to my personal mailing list send mailto:friends-subscribe@ji.to
At 09:26 97/11/16 -0700, Tim May wrote:
At 9:35 AM -0700 11/16/97, Joichi Ito wrote:
At 09:02 97/11/14 -0700, Tim May wrote:
And, almost immediately, the Japanese RSA chip became "unavailable." A longterm Cypherpunk, who can speak up if he desires to, had a few of these chips in the U.S. before the NSA ordered Chobetsu/MITI to halt export (and probably even to halt internal use in products developed for export). He told me the chips had suddenly become "unavailable," with no apparent prospects for them _ever_ becoming available. The stooges in Nippon listen when their masters speak.
It was for this longterm Cypherpunk that I looked into the RSA export issue and gave them the recommendation. It is likely that some pressure from the US government is being put on Japanese ministries such as MITI, but there are certain government agencies that aren't as exposed to US pressure who also have domestic political strength. Also, I looked into the "Chobetsu" that you refered to in a previous message and I think you are refering to the "Naikaku Chosashitsu Betsushitsu" which is the group that engages in the often rather shady "super-legal" actions like stamping out political parties and going after cults. I don't think they have any direct involvement in the current RSA issue and I wouldn't call them "Japan's NSA." They are more like some kind of secret police. (I can already image the kind of messages I'm going to receive on this list for engaging with you at this level of dialog, but for the benefit of some of the lurkers, I think it's worth it...) My point is, you are probably right that there is some activity by groups like the NSA putting pressure on exposed parts of Japanese government to stifle export of crypto. But... the current Japanese government is not as organized as you might think and there are many different groups with different opinions. I don't think it is necessary to write off all Japanese as stooges. Also, I disagree that there is "no apparent prospects for them _ever_ becoming available." This is not true. There is quite a bit a dialog going on in Japan about US pressure on Japan, US "information imperialism" and about those groups within Japan who are listen to the US. Some of the Japanese who have been speaking up against US policy have begun being labeled as "right-wing nationalists". (Which is probably better protection in Japan than being called a "left-wing liberal.") In any case, there is a fight going on inside Japan which isn't just a show. So much of what you are saying is true in a general sense, but there are still a lot of unresolved issues in Japan worth fighting for if anyone is interested in looking into the detail. I personally think that the impact of Japan's actions is great enough so that it might be worth engaging rather than just writing us off.
to regulate or restrict an activity without a clear and easy to understand process and documentation. MITI's current method of "case-by-case" export permission could technically be viewed as a breach of this law/regulation. Also, the "Gyousei Tetsuzuki Hou" has time limits for ministries to respond to requests. I have informed RSA that they could take MITI to court on this one, but as far as I know, they haven't. So, yes, Japanese stooges were involved, but companies such as RSA haven't taken advantage of their legal position in pushing the export of their products from Japan.
RSA the company may have various reasons for not pushing the issue too hard. For one thing, pissing off the NSA (even more) may cut into business contracts. For another, designing the Japanese chip into products could be a dangerous thing, if the supply is uncertain (and winning one court battle in Japan may not ensure continued supplies). Finally, recall that I publically described threats by NSA agents to have Bidzos "run over in your parking lot."
Well, I can understand that Mr. Bidzos doesn't want to get run over in the parking lot, but don't you think strong crypto for the world is more important? Why doesn't he buy a gun and sue MITI. ;-P - Joi P.S. I can already see this message going down in a flurry a flames. Although I'm getting used to ignoring irrelevant messages and taking cheap shots at Tim when I have the chance, I'm still not sure if the risk of engaging in dialog "out in the open" is worth the net reputation capital earned after all of the mud is slung. Also, I'm not sure whether giving away all of my tactics just to win an arguement is worth it. Maybe it is better to save those rounds for the real fight. My point is, if people on this list are really going to do anything about crypto I'll continue to weather the attacks and engage in dialog with you. If the point of this list is to just beat each other up and talk about how bad it all is, then I'm going to give up. -- PGP Key: http://pgp.ai.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x2D9461F1 PGP Fingerprint: 58F3 CA9A EFB8 EB9D DF18 6B16 E48D AF2A 2D94 61F1 Home Page: http://domino.garage.co.jp/jito/joihome.nsf To subscribe to my personal mailing list send mailto:friends-subscribe@ji.to
On Mon, 17 Nov 1997, Joichi Ito wrote:
issue and gave them the recommendation. It is likely that some pressure from the US government is being put on Japanese ministries such as MITI,
Some pressure? A simple little phone call is all it took, for Japan INC, to knuckle down to the NSA.
necessary to write off all Japanese as stooges. Also, I disagree that there is "no apparent prospects for them _ever_ becoming available." This is not
Japan INC, won't make those chips, untill either: 1: the NSA tells them to go ahead and make the or 2: Japan thinks it is ready to declare war on the US, again, and needs those chips for military conquest. I vote for option 2 happening far sooner than option 1. Just how soon do you think Japan will be willing to declare war against the US, with a hope of winning it? xan jonathon grafolog@netcom.com There are operating systems that were not dreamed up, in Redmond. Some of them even are bug-free.
At 16:30 97/11/16 -0700, Tim May wrote:
My strong suspicion is that Japanese journalists and source are NOT the best place to learn about Japanese SIGINT and COMINT capabilities. Not hard to see some reasons for this.
I will agree with you on this. I am not an expert. (I am not a traditional journalist either.) I was just stating my honest understanding and impression.
Please notify me, and us, of the forums where these engagements are occurring. For starters, how about some e-mail addresses of cabinet ministers and other officials.
The main problem is that most of it is in Japanese. The discussion in the media is definitely not enough, but it exists. Mr. Makino, a lawyer is tracking the wiretap stuff closely and Gosuke Takama is tracking the crypto stuff. Wired Japan (in Japanese) is probably the most comprehensive in tracking government policy in this area. Some of the major newspapers have published some good articles. I'll see if I can get permission to post one by Mr. Makino in English. Most of the "talking" goes on in study groups run be the ministries. The members of the study groups usually included party-line academics, industry people, and some outsiders such as myself. I am usually included in study groups that either want to protect themselves from my criticism later or that feel I actually add value. The ministry will usually go to each of the members of the committee and try to talk through any important points before the actual study session occurs so that there is no conflict during the session. In practice, there are several of us who do not necessarily agree and we are verbal during the sessions. These points get dilligently put on record and impact the actual report if we are stuborn enough. These reports then get distributed and used by politicians and media as references. One way, other than being a member of such a study group, to impact these study groups is to be invited as a speaker or to have written material distributed and discussed. I have made a point of distributing as much material from the Net as possible arguing against key escrow and wiretap. If anyone is willing to come to Japan to make a presentation, I would be happy to arrange such hearing. The fact of the matter is, the system is very inefficient and many things don't turn out the way I would like, but being one of the handful of people who can say what they think in these study groups, I feel it is my responsibility to actively engage in the method to trying to make things better. All of the ministries have web pages and email addresses, but I doubt they have much effect. I really am sorry I don't have a better answer.
This discussion is hardly going down in flames. You're apparently too sensitive to engage in robust debate.
This is true. I am not going engage in what you probably call a robust debate. A lot of people read this list and any robust debate will probably lower my reputation capital in some important area for me no matter what the outcome. I am not currently willing to take this risk.
Frankly, I've seen no mentions in the American press, let alone the Japanese press, about how Japan caved in to U.S. pressures. (There may have been some minor mentions in the U.S. press, but they had little impact.)
There are journalists focusing on this issue. I don't think anything is in print yet.
So, Joichi, why don't you stir the shit on this one? And I don't mean with "constructive engagement." That's a synonym for inaction.
Sorry. I am stiring the shit way too hard already. Not enough for you, I'm sure, but my risk is already rather high just talking to you here. :-)
Point out to your Japanese readers the nefarious role the NSA is playing, the role of the U.S. spy facilities in Misakawa Air Force Base, where the NSA and its military liason offices, intercept the communications of Toshiba, Fujitsu, Hitachi, NEC, and so on and feed them, selectively, to U.S. COMINT consumers. (Why Japan and Germany allow U.S. SIGINT facilities in their own territory is a mystery to me...must be some nice payoffs to senior officials.)
This is actually rather well documented in the press and I think several analysts such as Mr. Kazuhisa Ogawa actively talk about this point.
Declare war on the NSA. You've several times trumpetted the Japanese Constitution as supporting basic rights even more than the Amerikan Constitution does, so this is your chance to say "Fuck the National Security State."
Nope. You're not going to catch me declaring war on the NSA on this mailing list. ;-P
Get the RSA chip released widely and quickly. The drug trade in Asia could use it right now.
I am going to actively work on trying to get people like RSA to export their chip, but not necessarily for the drug trade. So... I am a wimpy moderate, but at least I'm talking to you folks. If you want me to shit or get off the pot, I think I'll get off the pot. - Joi P.S. I am going out of town for two days and may not have net connectivity. So, if I don't respond to something, it's not because I'm hiding. If you don't hear from me in 3 days, call John Markoff for me. ;-P -- PGP Key: http://pgp.ai.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x2D9461F1 PGP Fingerprint: 58F3 CA9A EFB8 EB9D DF18 6B16 E48D AF2A 2D94 61F1 Home Page: http://domino.garage.co.jp/jito/joihome.nsf To subscribe to my personal mailing list send mailto:friends-subscribe@ji.to
Joichi Ito <jito@eccosys.com> writes:
At 16:30 97/11/16 -0700, Tim May wrote:
My strong suspicion is that Japanese journalists and source are NOT the best place to learn about Japanese SIGINT and COMINT capabilities. Not hard to see some reasons for this.
I will agree with you on this. I am not an expert. (I am not a traditional journalist either.) I was just stating my honest understanding and impression.
"Honest"? Bwa-ha-ha! This "journalist" (a colleague of the pathological liar Charlie Platt) probably writes pornographic for Jap X-rated rags.
Please notify me, and us, of the forums where these engagements are occurring. For starters, how about some e-mail addresses of cabinet ministers and other officials.
The main problem is that most of it is in Japanese.
Learn some English, asshole.
This discussion is hardly going down in flames. You're apparently too sensitive to engage in robust debate.
This is true. I am not going engage in what you probably call a robust debate. A lot of people read this list and any robust debate will probably lower my reputation capital in some important area for me no matter what the outcome. I am not currently willing to take this risk.
Ito-san's repuatation is that of a pedophile. Japs don't export crypto (that would upset the NSA) but they do export pictures of little Jap girls being sexually molested. Is Ito-san one of the major exporters of child pornography from Japan, or is he one of the male models in those pictures? Nuke the Yellow Peril (again)
Joichi Ito <jito@eccosys.com> writes:
At 16:30 97/11/16 -0700, Tim May wrote:
This discussion is hardly going down in flames. You're apparently too sensitive to engage in robust debate.
This is true. I am not going engage in what you probably call a robust debate. A lot of people read this list and any robust debate will probably lower my reputation capital in some important area for me no matter what the outcome. I am not currently willing to take this risk.
I am not sure why discussion should lower your reputation capital, unless open discussion is frowned upon by those who you wish to influence. Perhaps you fear that you will be dismissed as a cypherpunk, a hardliner, whilst you are trying to appear less radical.
So, Joichi, why don't you stir the shit on this one? And I don't mean with "constructive engagement." That's a synonym for inaction.
Sorry. I am stiring the shit way too hard already. Not enough for you, I'm sure, but my risk is already rather high just talking to you here. :-)
I am pleased that you are discussing with us crypto politics in Japan... we have few contributors from Japan in the past. The lower protection for political speech in your country I always suspected was the problem. Dissidents who speak out against the government line in Japan I suspect are taking bigger risks than in the US, UK, and Europe.
Declare war on the NSA. You've several times trumpetted the Japanese Constitution as supporting basic rights even more than the Amerikan Constitution does, so this is your chance to say "Fuck the National Security State."
Nope. You're not going to catch me declaring war on the NSA on this mailing list. ;-P
I would've thought that the NSA's world policeman attempts would be resented by Japanese secret service types. I get the impression there are tensions between EU, UK and US secret services.
So... I am a wimpy moderate, but at least I'm talking to you folks. If you want me to shit or get off the pot, I think I'll get off the pot.
Well be careful of doing deals with the devil. Several crypto lobbying groups in the US some suspect did more harm than good. These groups lost their no compromise stance, and ended up helping to draft laws to ban crypto because they thought they could make the laws mildly less obnoxious by doing so. It may even have been the case that they had a net negative impact on freedom of crypto. Making deals with politicians is a dangerous game to play. They are opinionless power brokers, and will just use you as a bargaining chip.
P.S. I am going out of town for two days and may not have net connectivity. So, if I don't respond to something, it's not because I'm hiding. If you don't hear from me in 3 days, call John Markoff for me. ;-P
Don't know how things work in Japan, but I hear from people who've had spooky attentions that the best protection against spooks is harsh bright lights: they hate publicity. Adam -- Now officially an EAR violation... Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/ print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<> )]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`
Adam Back <aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes:
Joichi Ito <jito@eccosys.com> writes:
At 16:30 97/11/16 -0700, Tim May wrote:
This discussion is hardly going down in flames. You're apparently too sensitive to engage in robust debate.
This is true. I am not going engage in what you probably call a robust debate. A lot of people read this list and any robust debate will probably lower my reputation capital in some important area for me no matter what the outcome. I am not currently willing to take this risk.
I am not sure why discussion should lower your reputation capital, unless open discussion is frowned upon by those who you wish to influence. Perhaps you fear that you will be dismissed as a cypherpunk, a hardliner, whilst you are trying to appear less radical.
Because Ito-san is a lying sack of shit. "I support crypto, although not for the four horsemen." "My country will export pornography involving underage schoolgirls, but not the RSA chip." "Politically incorrect racists must be silenced". Fuck you, Ito-sun. Go suck a sashimi.
At 21:52 97/11/17 EST, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
Because Ito-san is a lying sack of shit. "I support crypto, although not for the four horsemen."
Just to clarify my position and respond to an earlier post by Tim about drug dealers... I support the use of crypto by everyone. I also agree with Tim that historically black markets have spurred the growth of all kinds of technologies, markets and products. My point was that I'm not pushing for crypto "just for" the drug dealers in Asia. This would be a stupid political position for me and they probably don't need my help anyway. - Joi -- PGP Key: http://pgp.ai.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x2D9461F1 PGP Fingerprint: 58F3 CA9A EFB8 EB9D DF18 6B16 E48D AF2A 2D94 61F1 Home Page: http://domino.garage.co.jp/jito/joihome.nsf To subscribe to my personal mailing list send mailto:friends-subscribe@ji.to
I'm not sure exactly how the media works in the US, but it might be helpful for people to understand how politics and media work in Japan. The politicians and lobby groups all have access to the media. They hire investigators, photographers and use all kinds of resources to collect dirt about their political foes. Then, when they need to put pressure on someone, they go to the sleazy Japanese media with the dirt and saturate the media with the dirt. When one gets involved in business or any other activity in Japan, one chooses either to stay out of the media or use it. Once one get into the media and people start paying attention to you, the attention increases. This attention helps you get loans from banks, get jobs, etc. People think that if you are in media, it is difficult to do shady things like rip people off, go bankrupt, or run away. The media keeps writing lots of stuff about you as long as you keep doing new stuff. At a certain point, after they start running out of good things to day, they switch and start tearing you apart. That way, they get twice the media miles out of one person. The general structure is that your political foes keep releasing bad stuff about you and minor magazines publish this stuff. As soon as the political pressure gets too much or the media decides you are a bore, a public reputation capital bankruptcy occurs and everyone tears you apart. This has happened to almost every major modern leader in Japan. I realize that my public reputation capital in Japan has no value or meaning on the Net, but it does affect what I can do on the Net. I am currently very exposed in the media in Japan. I regularly appear in the Newspapers, TV, Magazines and public events. I am still not a "rock star" but I am enough of a public figure so that people bash me publicly and recognize me on the street. Magazines write about my private life and feel that "who I am going out with" is worth a headline. In this state, I have the security of being under a bright light that keeps direct attacks away, but it makes me very vulnerable to indirect attacks. Investigators ask my friends whether I take drugs, drive drunk, have divorced parents... anything. So... To retain my current position from where I am launching my assault on a bad structure, I have to cover myself with the media and there I have to comply with the general legal and moral norms of Japanese society. Luckily, bashing the bad guys in government and industry is OK as long as you win. Unfortunately, I can not take drugs, drive drunk, be a terrorist, or... probably be a hardline cypherpunk. My currently strategy is to protect my public position and get as many "torso shots" as possible with my publicly acceptable weapon before I get knocked down. I will then resort to the use of "unauthorized weapons". I am not out to destroy the government or industry. I'm trying to cure the cancer that has developed. I have a feeling Japan may die of this cancer, but at least I won't have been a part of the cancer. and... if Japan dies of the cancer, hey, we can all build the next Japan. Sorry to write such a "self-oriented" message. I just wanted to explain why I am appear very conservative for a cypherpunk wannabe. - Joi -- PGP Key: http://pgp.ai.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x2D9461F1 PGP Fingerprint: 58F3 CA9A EFB8 EB9D DF18 6B16 E48D AF2A 2D94 61F1 Home Page: http://domino.garage.co.jp/jito/joihome.nsf To subscribe to my personal mailing list send mailto:friends-subscribe@ji.to
At 16:23 97/11/17 GMT, Adam Back wrote:
I am not sure why discussion should lower your reputation capital, unless open discussion is frowned upon by those who you wish to influence. Perhaps you fear that you will be dismissed as a cypherpunk, a hardliner, whilst you are trying to appear less radical.
Maybe reputation capital is not the right word. There are some people who do not necessarily like what I am saying in Japan. I am using all of the media spin that I can to keep the tabloids out of my face. I regularly gets calls from the tabloids here trying to find something to tear down my reputation in Japan. This method of media spin is how most politicians in Japan extort and put pressure on public figures. Even if everyone here knows exactly what I mean, people can quote me out of context and things can escalate from there. So yes. I fear being cast as a cypherpunk hardliner and having it distorted in the Japanese press. I know for a fact that a few people are trying to do this and more will in the future.
I am pleased that you are discussing with us crypto politics in Japan... we have few contributors from Japan in the past. The lower protection for political speech in your country I always suspected was the problem. Dissidents who speak out against the government line in Japan I suspect are taking bigger risks than in the US, UK, and Europe.
You are correct. It is difficult to be a successful dissident in Japan.
I would've thought that the NSA's world policeman attempts would be resented by Japanese secret service types. I get the impression there are tensions between EU, UK and US secret services.
They are resented in Japan. The problem is, I have many of my assets in the United States so taking a Japanese nationalist stance against the NSA is not very intelligent for me. I like many things in the US and I would like to protect my ability to access to those things.
So... I am a wimpy moderate, but at least I'm talking to you folks. If you want me to shit or get off the pot, I think I'll get off the pot.
Well be careful of doing deals with the devil. Several crypto lobbying groups in the US some suspect did more harm than good. These groups lost their no compromise stance, and ended up helping to draft laws to ban crypto because they thought they could make the laws mildly less obnoxious by doing so. It may even have been the case that they had a net negative impact on freedom of crypto. Making deals with politicians is a dangerous game to play. They are opinionless power brokers, and will just use you as a bargaining chip.
I agree. I am trying to keep my politics rather disorganized and focused on cutting through lies and bullshit rather than building a political position. I have not organized anything other than a regular cypherpunks meeting where many different types of people exchange views and work on technology. I do not "negotiate" with the government. I just express my opinions. For now... but I understand very well the risk of political exposure. Many of my colleagues and friends have been socially destroyed when trying to break a pact with the "dark side." I have already had several "recruitment" pings from the "dark side," and the most recent attempt in the form of a bribe offer, I reported Time Magazine. The "dark side" doesn't like me, but they don't have anything on me... yet...
P.S. I am going out of town for two days and may not have net connectivity. So, if I don't respond to something, it's not because I'm hiding. If you don't hear from me in 3 days, call John Markoff for me. ;-P
Don't know how things work in Japan, but I hear from people who've had spooky attentions that the best protection against spooks is harsh bright lights: they hate publicity.
Same. Markoff promised that if I received a threat from either the US or Japanese government, he would write it up in the New York Times for me. I think this is the best protection I have. - Joi -- PGP Key: http://pgp.ai.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x2D9461F1 PGP Fingerprint: 58F3 CA9A EFB8 EB9D DF18 6B16 E48D AF2A 2D94 61F1 Home Page: http://domino.garage.co.jp/jito/joihome.nsf To subscribe to my personal mailing list send mailto:friends-subscribe@ji.to
At 21:21 97/11/18 -0700, Tim May wrote:
At 4:43 PM -0700 11/16/97, Joichi Ito wrote:
who also have domestic political strength. Also, I looked into the "Chobetsu" that you refered to in a previous message and I think you are refering to the "Naikaku Chosashitsu Betsushitsu" which is the group that engages in the often rather shady "super-legal" actions like stamping out political parties and going after cults. I don't think they have any direct involvement in the current RSA issue and I wouldn't call them "Japan's NSA." They are more like some kind of secret police. (I can already image the kind of messages I'm going to receive on this list for engaging with you at this level of dialog, but for ...
As I said earlier, Richelson's comprehensive study of foreign intelligence agencies describes it as Chobetsu, as does Hersh. Perhaps there is an issue of transliteration here?
Tim... Interesting. It sounds like the same organization I am talking about, but I didn't know it was part of the defense force. I will ask a few experts and back back to you if I find out more. Maybe I'll give them a call. ;-) - Joi -- PGP Key: http://pgp.ai.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x2D9461F1 PGP Fingerprint: 58F3 CA9A EFB8 EB9D DF18 6B16 E48D AF2A 2D94 61F1 Home Page: http://domino.garage.co.jp/jito/joihome.nsf To subscribe to my personal mailing list send mailto:friends-subscribe@ji.to
Joichi Ito <jito@eccosys.com> writes:
At 21:21 97/11/18 -0700, Tim May wrote:
At 4:43 PM -0700 11/16/97, Joichi Ito wrote:
who also have domestic political strength. Also, I looked into the "Chobetsu" that you refered to in a previous message and I think you are refering to the "Naikaku Chosashitsu Betsushitsu" which is the group that engages in the often rather shady "super-legal" actions like stamping out political parties and going after cults. I don't think they have any direct involvement in the current RSA issue and I wouldn't call them "Japan's NSA." They are more like some kind of secret police. (I can already image the kind of messages I'm going to receive on this list for engaging with you at this level of dialog, but fo ...
As I said earlier, Richelson's comprehensive study of foreign intelligence agencies describes it as Chobetsu, as does Hersh. Perhaps there is an issue of transliteration here?
Tim... Interesting. It sounds like the same organization I am talking about, but I didn't know it was part of the defense force. I will ask a few experts and back back to you if I find out more.
Once again, Ito-san demonstrates that he's an ignorant uneducated buffoon, on par with the pathologial liar Charlie Platt. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
At 07:00 AM 11/19/1997 EST, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
Once again, Ito-san demonstrates that he's an ignorant uneducated buffoon, on par with the pathologial liar Charlie Platt.
Dmitri, you've got to keep straight which people you're calling liars, which people you're calling pedophiles, which people you're calling homosexuals, and which people you're calling Mama. Otherwise we won't know whether it's really you or some forger trying to increase your reputation capital. Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639
Joichi Ito <jito@eccosys.com> writes: [alleging that Jap MITI ministry is in violation of Japs' own laws]
I have informed RSA that they could take MITI to court on this one, but as far as I know, they haven't. So, yes, Japanese stooges were involved, but companies such as RSA haven't taken advantage of their legal position in pushing the export of their products from Japan.
So, an American company should seek redress in Jap courts against a branch of the Jap gubmint violating Japs' own laws? Bwa-ha-ha-ha!!!!1!1!! Tell that to the American suckers who bought some Jap stock and tried to attend Jap stockholder meetings and asked Jap courts to protect their property rights as stockholders. Do you remember that one, Ito-san? --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
At 13:11 97/11/16 EST, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
Tell that to the American suckers who bought some Jap stock and tried to attend Jap stockholder meetings and asked Jap courts to protect their property rights as stockholders. Do you remember that one, Ito-san?
Yes. That was the Kubota/Pickens case. My lawyer represented the US side. He lost. That doesn't mean it wasn't worth trying. Anyway, I responded to your message for the benefit of the other members of the list. Go ahead and flame away Vulis. Being called a moron by you is a compliment. ;-P Your reputation is so low that I don't care what you say about me or what your think for that matter. - Joi Administrative note: This will probably be the last Vulis message I will ever respond to or refer to. -- PGP Key: http://pgp.ai.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x2D9461F1 PGP Fingerprint: 58F3 CA9A EFB8 EB9D DF18 6B16 E48D AF2A 2D94 61F1 Home Page: http://domino.garage.co.jp/jito/joihome.nsf To subscribe to my personal mailing list send mailto:friends-subscribe@ji.to
participants (9)
-
Adam Back -
Anonymous -
dabi-do＠juno.com -
dlv＠bwalk.dm.com -
Joichi Ito -
jonathon -
Jyri Kaljundi -
stewarts＠ix.netcom.com -
Tim May