Re: US law - World Law - Secret Banking
On the issue of "money leaving the country illegally" (the general notion that people taking money out of the country in suitcases or in charged-up smartcards are doing something Evil and Unclean). Just as we (and Phil Zimmermann, who widely made this point) were able to convince a lot of people about strong crypto by talking about "sealed letters" vs. "postcards," so, too, do we need to make the same points about "untraceable cash flows" and even about "taking money out of the country." I imagine this conversation with my father: Dad: "But if the government needs to trace the spending of illegal money, then these anonymous transfers you've been telling me about need to be outlawed." Me: "Can the government track that $100 you spent last week? Should it?" Dad: "Well, no, that's my money and it's none of the government's damned business what I spend it on." Me: "So, we agree." Dad: "Well, but the drug dealers have to be tracked." Me: "First, the drug dealers are likely dealing in such mega-quantities that they'll simply find compliant banks and other ways to hide the transfers. It's unlikely that any of the proposed tracking schemes will be effective. Second, how can the government possibly know which funds are drug-related and which are not? Their scheme involves sacrificing fundamental liberties for the dubious possibility that _some_ drug dealers will be caught. Random raids on houses would probably work better, but of course would be just as unconstitutional." Dad: "But then what do we do about the drug dealers?" Me: "You and me don't do drugs. So what's the problem?" Dad: "But..." Me: "Name a drug that kills more people per year than alcohol. Or nicotine." Dad: "Well...." [My father, at age 72, has come around to the "legalize all drugs" position, a view also supported by noted thinkers and former politicians, including former Secretary of State George Schulz (or Shultz, or some variant).] I 'm convinced that a similar argument applies to those transferring funds. Many funds transfers are not even tax evasion; I am one of many people who are researching ways to expatriate some or all of my funds to jurisdictions friendlier than the U.S. So long as I fill out the proper boxes on my 1040, and pay appropriate taxes, I am committing no crime by moving my wealth to some other country. Those on the list about a year or so ago may recall that there are proposals to in fact impose a "capital flight tax." This would make the U.S. a country very much like the former Soviet Union, which forbade such transfers of wealth without payment of heavy taxes. The recent FinCEN-friendly conference in San Francisco raised the alarm about digital cash and smartcards being used to make money transfers easier. Horrors! --Tim May Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
Excerpts from internet.cypherpunks: 25-Apr-96 Re: US law - World Law - Se.. by Timothy C. May@got.net
I 'm convinced that a similar argument applies to those transferring funds. Many funds transfers are not even tax evasion; I am one of many people who are researching ways to expatriate some or all of my funds to jurisdictions friendlier than the U.S. So long as I fill out the proper boxes on my 1040, and pay appropriate taxes, I am committing no crime by moving my wealth to some other country.
Those on the list about a year or so ago may recall that there are proposals to in fact impose a "capital flight tax." This would make the U.S. a country very much like the former Soviet Union, which forbade such transfers of wealth without payment of heavy taxes.
I have been reading this list to get an idea where Declan gets some of his lunatic ideas and what Rich Graves says when he is not up to Holocaust fetishism. Despite Timothy's claim to the contrary, it seems that the basic point of this list is some libertarian notion that tax evasion is a good thing. While I am not clear how serious of threat, if one at all, to a system of fair taxiation, since much of the talk could be simply bluff, I have been made glad for the first time for the War on Drugs. This silly war--tragic in terms of its economic cost and its assault on liberty--at least has forces some government agencies to take you seriously enough to figure out how to derail your plans of tax evasion. Michael Loomis
On Fri, 26 Apr 1996, Michael Loomis wrote:
I have been reading this list to get an idea where Declan gets some of his lunatic ideas and what Rich Graves says when he is not up to Holocaust fetishism. Despite Timothy's claim to the contrary, it seems that the basic point of this list is some libertarian notion that tax evasion is a good thing. While I am not clear how serious of threat, if
If Tim is claiming anything to the contrary it is the importance of defending tax evasion on this list. There isn't any. Its acceptance is a foregone conclusion around here. The place for debating the ethics of such things is on usenet political groups. The focus here is using crypto to build the institutions to escape the constraints of physical commerce and monitoring. Obviously, for the practical purposes of most people we aren't there yet. It's quite promising, though. It's not the "why" but the "how". It might be useful for you to browse the early portions of the archives when they come back or read Tim's and Eric's original manifestos (somewhere in the bowels of ftp.csua.berkeley.edu/pub/cypherpunks/rants) and Black Unicorn's essay on his love of cash from Detweiler's page (can't remeber the url, I'll dig it up if you're interested, it's got some nice outtakes from past discussions, though Det himself is rather out of it). The cyphernomicon is also instructive (it'll show up on search engines). There are tons of other good sources, too. Ps. I know there are other list archives, but none of the urls I dig up seem to work. Help!
On Fri, 26 Apr 1996 s1113645@tesla.cc.uottawa.ca wrote:
On Fri, 26 Apr 1996, Michael Loomis wrote:
Holocaust fetishism. Despite Timothy's claim to the contrary, it seems that the basic point of this list is some libertarian notion that tax evasion is a good thing. While I am not clear how serious of threat, if
It might be useful for you to browse the early portions of the archives when they come back or read Tim's and Eric's original manifestos (somewhere in the bowels of ftp.csua.berkeley.edu/pub/cypherpunks/rants) and Black Unicorn's essay on his love of cash from Detweiler's page (can't remeber the url, I'll dig it up if you're interested, it's got some nice outtakes from past discussions, though Det himself is rather out of it).
LD put my work on his page? How cute. I'll repost the work here if there is enough interest. No telling what LD might have done to the original. --- My preferred and soon to be permanent e-mail address:unicorn@schloss.li "In fact, had Bancroft not existed, potestas scientiae in usu est Franklin might have had to invent him." in nihilum nil posse reverti 00B9289C28DC0E55 E16D5378B81E1C96 - Finger for Current Key Information Opp. Counsel: For all your expert testimony needs: jimbell@pacifier.com
one at all, to a system of fair taxiation, since much of the talk could
fair taxation. What a concept. Now why did this person appear in my "cypherpunks-people-to-read-file?" I should go figure this out and fix it.
be simply bluff, I have been made glad for the first time for the War on Drugs. This silly war--tragic in terms of its economic cost and its assault on liberty--at least has forces some government agencies to take you seriously enough to figure out how to derail your plans of tax evasion.
Michael Loomis
-- Sameer Parekh Voice: 510-601-9777x3 Community ConneXion, Inc. FAX: 510-601-9734 The Internet Privacy Provider Dialin: 510-658-6376 http://www.c2.net/ (or login as "guest") sameer@c2.net
On Fri, 26 Apr 1996 sameer@c2.org wrote:
one at all, to a system of fair taxiation, since much of the talk could
fair taxation. What a concept. Now why did this person appear in my "cypherpunks-people-to-read-file?" I should go figure this out and fix it.
That's not what he wrote. He meant fair TAXIation. Michael is criticizing arbitrary government regulations on transportation systems. See part four of Hernando de Soto's _The Other Path_ and other publications from Instituto Libertad y Democracia (Lima, Peru). The original Spanish version is more complete, with a statistical appendix, but the US paperback edition, ISBN 0-06-091640-0, hits all the main points. The issue of taxis that lack government license has also been raised in New York City and San Franciso in recent years. Might also be in Gabriel Zaid's La Economia presidencial, but it's been a while since I read that, and I don't own a copy. Cypherpunk relevance? In theory at least, the "medallions" that identify legal taxis are a form of Chaum's credentials without identity. Loomis is in your "cypherpunks-people-to-read-file" because of the ZundeLooMirror. He's a good guy, if a bit abrasive. Unfortunately, I found out too late that the best way to get him to do something stupid and wrong is to tell him that it's stupid and wrong. That makes you an enemy, and not worth listening to. http://www.c2.org/~rich/Not_By_Me_Not_My_Views/rebuttal.html By the way, I think I know what you mean, but someone unfamiliar with cypherpunks or you might read this indication that you have a "people to read" file, and don't care to read people you disagree with, the wrong way. You're liable to be called a FUCKING CLOSED-MINDED CENSOR NAZI. -rich
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Fri, 26 Apr 1996, Michael Loomis wrote:
I have been reading this list to get an idea where Declan gets some of his lunatic ideas and what Rich Graves says when he is not up to Holocaust fetishism. Despite Timothy's claim to the contrary, it seems that the basic point of this list is some libertarian notion that tax evasion is a good thing.
That might be one view, but not mine. I think people who evade income taxes are bad -- they're stealing from the rest of society. But I believe that the growth of cryptoanarchy means that people who make far more money than we do can evade taxes with ever greater ease. The current system puts honest people at a disadvantage, which is never a good thing. The technical and economic analyses presented here are neither good or bad -- they're true or false. I tend to believe that they are more true than false. My semi-conclusion is that in a knowledge and services society like ours, a fair share of income tax cannot be collected from the very rich without imposing totalitarian controls; therefore, government needs to be more entrepreneurial, cut costs, divide labor, and raise revenue through somewhate harder-to-evade sales, real estate, and inheritance taxes. Such a system would probably be more regressive in theory, but not too different in practice -- and it would be honest. Globalization and network-based freedom further weaken the sovereign, geographically defined, vertically integrated nation-state. I don't necessarily see this as a bad thing. I agree with the crypto-anarchist analysis that the status quo is untenable, but I haven't made up my mind where we should go. My academic background is in Latin America. I've known a lot of governments that really suck, and a lot of revolutions that are even worse.
While I am not clear how serious of threat, if one at all, to a system of fair taxiation, since much of the talk could be simply bluff, I have been made glad for the first time for the War on Drugs. This silly war--tragic in terms of its economic cost and its assault on liberty--at least has forces some government agencies to take you seriously enough to figure out how to derail your plans of tax evasion.
In what way has the War on Drugs derailed tax evasion? Please elaborate. On the contrary, I think it has demonstrated the ineffectiveness of attempts to control tax evasion and smuggling. Thank you for providing this rare insight into how you think. I haven't heard from you in three months; I was starting to wonder. Please drop by and have a beer some time. - -rich FUCKING STATIST and HOLOCAUST FETISHIST http://www.c2.org/~rich/Not_By_Me_Not_My_Views/rebuttal.html -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMYCTRI3DXUbM57SdAQHLDQQAjg/jsvqt+xAfmXAysAQ/E8519SC57/Tk x46GoHv3ExVQcJNFu2MrePa8OygMzQZ5Iw0OFUhv9XRLJ05ClVUbyff6X5Y2oVyl ZlLb84NrGgl23Ksfi8QkRdlvGgEEEwfB0VFei9mte82HBQvULELM6KmNiBQIgW/R XG7xbWrneKI= =teBf -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On Fri, 26 Apr 1996, Michael Loomis wrote:
Excerpts from internet.cypherpunks: 25-Apr-96 Re: US law - World Law - Se.. by Timothy C. May@got.net
Those on the list about a year or so ago may recall that there are proposals to in fact impose a "capital flight tax." This would make the U.S. a country very much like the former Soviet Union, which forbade such transfers of wealth without payment of heavy taxes.
I have been reading this list to get an idea where Declan gets some of his lunatic ideas and what Rich Graves says when he is not up to Holocaust fetishism. Despite Timothy's claim to the contrary, it seems that the basic point of this list is some libertarian notion that tax evasion is a good thing.
Your observation about the primary point of the list is incorrect in my view and even if it were correct, you overlook several aspects of the U.S. taxation system when you class all efforts to reduce or otherwise mitigate taxation as "tax evasion." First of all, and as one of the only western powers to do so, the United States taxes its citizens on _worldwide income_. While this in itself, with a proper foreign tax credit system, is not offensive, when the Unites States adds to this a very wide scope of extraterratorial jurisdiction and compelled process, it becomes more than tax. Further, the United States implements policy it cannot directly legislate constiutionally through taxation. Now, all of the above might not be unusual, but when it is combined with proposals like the expatraition tax (leave the country and pay a tax for doing so- and by the way, there is a form of this on the books and applicable today in the US) and strict money laundering regulations you approach something like currency controls. It is also worth noting that your notion of tax evasion is by no means universal. Switzerland, Liechtenstein, the Cayman Islands, France, the United Kingdom, all define tax evasion differently. Who are you, or anyone else, to say what tax evasion is, especially when it regards income derrived outside of the geographical and economic boundries of the taxing state? The United States has asked for this problem by imposing a regime of worldwide taxation on income. I, for one, am not particularly sympathetic.
While I am not clear how serious of threat, if one at all, to a system of fair taxiation, since much of the talk could be simply bluff, I have been made glad for the first time for the War on Drugs. This silly war--tragic in terms of its economic cost and its assault on liberty--at least has forces some government agencies to take you seriously enough to figure out how to derail your plans of tax evasion.
Unfortunately, and if you stick with the list long enough and absorb the ramifications of some of the technology, I think the government has a losing battle. At the moment it is estimated that 10% of tax evaders in the United States are ever caught. It is partly the arrogance of many U.S. citizens, and the view that their government knows the one single way to conduct economic and foreign affairs, that empowers the United States to impose her tax and economic policy on unconnected sovereigns thousands of miles away. I think you have a rather narrow view of the list in any event. Cypherpunks are about much more than the ramifications of new technologies on the tax systems of the world. But, if it's sexy to demonize the list by calling us all tax evaders, feel free.
Michael Loomis
--- My preferred and soon to be permanent e-mail address:unicorn@schloss.li "In fact, had Bancroft not existed, potestas scientiae in usu est Franklin might have had to invent him." in nihilum nil posse reverti 00B9289C28DC0E55 E16D5378B81E1C96 - Finger for Current Key Information Opp. Counsel: For all your expert testimony needs: jimbell@pacifier.com
participants (6)
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Black Unicorn -
Michael Loomis -
Rich Graves -
s1113645＠tesla.cc.uottawa.ca -
sameer＠c2.org -
tcmay＠got.net