(Wow! I just trimmed 7 of the 8 names cc:ed on this message I'm quoting...I think the auto-quoting software most of use is getting out of hand. The trimmed recipients were; To: bdavis@thepoint.net, aba@atlas.ex.ac.uk, davby@ida.liu.se, Damien.Doligez@inria.fr, hfinney@shell.portal.com, asb@nexor.co.uk) Anyway... At 9:19 PM 8/20/95, Adam Shostack wrote:
| So ... has this proven that the banning of strong crypto is the correct | way to go, and that, at least to some, credit card transactions using | weak crypto will be acceptable to most (given the ease of getting CC#s | other ways)?
No. Banning strong crypto will not help; those darn furriners are using it anyway. What it will mean is that the Information Infrastructure of the future will bypass the United States, as without strong cryptography, it is impossible to build a secure architechture.
Should the United States wish to relagate itself to the status of a third world nation becuase of terrorists, druge dealers, child pornorgaphers and money launderers, that is indeed unfortunate.
The U.S. is not likely to find itself relegated to third world status over this issue. Rhetorically, I wish it were so, but it just ain't. This issue--like the McCarthy hearings in the 1950s, the race issue in the '60s, the Vietnam war in the '60s and '70s, to name a few cases, _sounds_ really serious. And it is, as those cases were, but predicting the imminent collapse of American civilization is usually a lose. There is no way the technologlcal and manufacturing prowess of leading American companies will be substantially crippled. I would like to see export laws relaxed, especially as they are seldom effective, and so on. You know my views. But the likeliest outcome if strong crypto export remains hard, but import is unaffected, is that strong crypto will be imported from Europe and elsewhere. (It does not violate any laws that I am aware of to have a product for sale in the U.S. with "hooks" for arbitrary crypto, so long as that product and the hooks are not _exported_. Naturally, companies like Microsoft, Lotus, Novell, etc., do not want to have a U.S. version and an export version. But if they _have_ to, they can. My point is that this would certainly not relegate the U.S. to Third World status, at least not faster than many other trends are already doing.) Several European companies are strong in crypto, of course. --Tim May ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@got.net (Got net?) | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero 408-728-0152 | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Corralitos, CA | black markets, collapse of governments. Higher Power: 2^756839 | Public Key: PGP and MailSafe available. "National borders are just speed bumps on the information superhighway."
tcmay@got.net (Timothy C. May) writes:
The U.S. is not likely to find itself relegated to third world status over this issue. Rhetorically, I wish it were so, but it just ain't. This issue--like the McCarthy hearings in the 1950s, the race issue in the '60s, the Vietnam war in the '60s and '70s, to name a few cases, _sounds_ really serious. And it is, as those cases were, but predicting the imminent collapse of American civilization is usually a lose.
In all those cases, the critics were right. You just think "imminent" means "in the next year or two". Look at at the signs, man -- literacy and child mortality rates, an imprisoned populace, massive government debt, etc. The US is slipping into the second world as we speak, with no signs of a turnaround ahead. Only the sheer size of the economy keeps people from believing it. The critics _were_ right. (Incidentally, the race issue certainly spans more than a mere decade. The race-related violent demonstrations certainly peaked in the 60s, but the deleterious effects of forced immigration and slavery have been a blight on society every day for almost three centuries.) Go right ahead, fed, ban strong crypto. The coffin only needs a few more nails.
Strong cryptography is needed for a secure information infrastructure. If American companies aren't allowed to build secure infrastrucure, then parts of the infrastrucure will move overseas, as insurance, liability, and deployment costs rise for a badly secured network. This issue will not cause the USA to become a third world nation, but it will contribute to large institutions moving their data processing out. Tim, you've talked a lot about how companies will move data centers out of the US to avoid 'expensive' laws; do you see the ITARs as being in a different catagory, than say, the laws on reporting a bankruptcy? Adam Tim May wrote: | At 9:19 PM 8/20/95, Adam Shostack wrote: | > No. Banning strong crypto will not help; those darn furriners | >are using it anyway. What it will mean is that the Information | >Infrastructure of the future will bypass the United States, as without | >strong cryptography, it is impossible to build a secure architechture. | > | > Should the United States wish to relagate itself to the status | >of a third world nation becuase of terrorists, druge dealers, child | >pornorgaphers and money launderers, that is indeed unfortunate. | | The U.S. is not likely to find itself relegated to third world status over | this issue. Rhetorically, I wish it were so, but it just ain't. This | issue--like the McCarthy hearings in the 1950s, the race issue in the '60s, | the Vietnam war in the '60s and '70s, to name a few cases, _sounds_ really | serious. And it is, as those cases were, but predicting the imminent | collapse of American civilization is usually a lose. | | There is no way the technologlcal and manufacturing prowess of leading | American companies will be substantially crippled. -- "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -Hume
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