Something of Interest (fwd)
I recieved this today via e-mail. I find it strange since I have never asked to be put on any sort of "interest list" by anyone at the IRS. (And my Cypherpunks mail shows up at a different address. Did anyone else get this? alano@teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it." ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Return-Path: irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov Received: from tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (tcs-gateway1.treas.gov [204.151.245.2]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA28119; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 15:49:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov id AA19658 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0); Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:47:00 -0400 Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-2); Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:47:00 -0400 Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-1); Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:47:00 -0400 Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:29:08 -0400 From: IRS Inspection <irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov> Message-Id: <199707171629.MAA02733@net.insp.irs.gov> To: Interested-Parties@net.insp.irs.gov Subject: Something of Interest United States Attorney Western District of Washington FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE July 18, 1997 JAMES D. BELL PLEADS GUILTY TO OBSTRUCTING THE IRS AND USING FALSE SOCIAL SECURITY NUMBERS United States Attorney Kate Pflaumer announced that JAMES DALTON BELL, 39, pleaded guilty today in the federal court in Tacoma to two felony charges. BELL, a resident of Vancouver, Washington, pleaded guilty to obstructing and impeding the Internal Revenue Service (IRS), and to falsely using a social security number with the intent to deceive. United States District Court Judge Franklin D. Burgess presided over today's proceedings. The charges stem from an investigation initiated in October, 1996 by IRS Internal Security Inspectors into reports that BELL was gathering the names and home addresses of IRS employees. In previous court hearings, IRS Inspectors testified that BELL had obtained the names and home addresses of 70 IRS employees as part of "Operation LocatIRS." In the eight page plea agreement signed by BELL, he acknowledged that he had gathered the names and addresses of the IRS employees in order to intimidate them in the performance of their official duties. During the course of their investigation, IRS Inspectors discovered that BELL was advocating a scheme called "Assassination Politics", whereby persons would be rewarded with "digital cash" for killing certain undesirable people. BELL identified these undesirables as government employees, such as IRS employees, who would be intimidated from enforcing internal revenue laws for fear of being assassinated. In the plea agreement, BELL admitted that he suggested using "Assassination Politics" as an enforcement mechanism for the "Multnomah County Common Law Court", and that this was part of his effort to obstruct and impede the enforcement of internal revenue laws. In affidavits previously filed in this case, IRS investigators identified BELL as a participant in the "Multnomah County Common Law Court", which was described as a self-appointed anti-government extremist group which purports to hold "trials" of IRS and other Government employees for the performance of their official duties. The affidavits indicated that in January, 1997 the "Multnomah County Common Law Court" held a "trial" of IRS and other Government officials. In the plea agreement, BELL also admitted that on March 16, 1997, he conducted a chemical "stink bomb" attack on the IRS office in Vancouver, Washington, using the noxious chemical mercaptan. In affidavits filed with the Court, IRS Inspectors tied BELL to two previous mercaptan attacks against non-government targets: one being a lawyer's office in 1984, and the other a vehicle in 1989. The IRS investigators also linked BELL to two purchase orders for noxious chemicals, one in 1994 and one in 1996. According to the plea agreement, the attack on the IRS office resulted in a cost to the government of $1,359, and caused a number of IRS employees to have to leave work. In an affidavit previously filed in this case, IRS Inspectors indicated that the mercaptan attack may have been linked to the February 20, 1997 seizure of BELL's vehicle by the IRS for unpaid taxes. As part of the plea agreement, BELL also admitted that he used several different social security numbers in order to hide assets from the IRS and thus to impede the IRS's ability to collect taxes he owed and to prevent the IRS from levying his wages. Federal agents had previously executed two search warrants on BELL's residence. On April 1, 1997, IRS agents seized computers, documents, and firearms during a search. In a follow-up search, the Environmental Protection Agency seized a variety of dangerous chemicals which had been discovered during the execution of the IRS warrant. BELL was arrested by IRS Inspectors on May 16, 1997. BELL continues to be held in custody based on a May 23, 1997 ruling by Magistrate Judge J. Kelley Arnold that BELL posed a danger to the community and was a flight risk. BELL faces a maximum sentence of three years in prison and a $250,000 fine for the obstruction charge, and five years and a $250,000 fine for using a phony social security number. The IRS received assistance in the investigation of BELL from the Portland Police Bureau, Oregon Department of Justice, Oregon State Police, Federal Bureau of Investigation, and the Vancouver, Washington Police Department.
At 01:39 PM 7/21/97 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
I just spoke with Peter Avenia, a Federal public defender representing Jim Bell. He said that Bell did indeed plead guilty last Friday to two felony counts and sentencing is set for October. Apparently at least the thrust of this "IRS Inspection" press release is accurate.
Which two counts? Do you know what the plea bargain is re: sentencing?
I recieved this today via e-mail. I find it strange since I have never asked to be put on any sort of "interest list" by anyone at the IRS. (And my Cypherpunks mail shows up at a different address.
Did anyone else get this?
I did. I may have been declared an `interested party' because I host a copy of Bell's AP essays. I certainly never asked to be put on their list :) (Also, it came to me via an older address, one which I was about to close; if _this_ kind of weirdness keeps showing up, I may have to keep it a while longer. dave
anyone know what the lowest he can get is, under the sentencing guidelines, now that we know the max? MacN On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, Alan wrote:
I recieved this today via e-mail. I find it strange since I have never asked to be put on any sort of "interest list" by anyone at the IRS. (And my Cypherpunks mail shows up at a different address.
Did anyone else get this?
alano@teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."
---------- Forwarded message ---------- Return-Path: irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov Received: from tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (tcs-gateway1.treas.gov [204.151.245.2]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA28119; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 15:49:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov id AA19658 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0); Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:47:00 -0400 Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-2); Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:47:00 -0400 Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-1); Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:47:00 -0400 Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:29:08 -0400 From: IRS Inspection <irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov> Message-Id: <199707171629.MAA02733@net.insp.irs.gov> To: Interested-Parties@net.insp.irs.gov Subject: Something of Interest
United States Attorney Western District of Washington
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE July 18, 1997
JAMES D. BELL PLEADS GUILTY TO OBSTRUCTING THE IRS AND USING FALSE SOCIAL SECURITY NUMBERS
United States Attorney Kate Pflaumer announced that JAMES DALTON BELL, 39, pleaded guilty today in the federal court in Tacoma to two felony charges. BELL, a resident of Vancouver, Washington, pleaded guilty to obstructing and impeding the Internal Revenue Service (IRS), and to falsely using a social security number with the intent to deceive. United States District Court Judge Franklin D. Burgess presided over today's proceedings.
The charges stem from an investigation initiated in October, 1996 by IRS Internal Security Inspectors into reports that BELL was gathering the names and home addresses of IRS employees. In previous court hearings, IRS Inspectors testified that BELL had obtained the names and home addresses of 70 IRS employees as part of "Operation LocatIRS." In the eight page plea agreement signed by BELL, he acknowledged that he had gathered the names and addresses of the IRS employees in order to intimidate them in the performance of their official duties.
During the course of their investigation, IRS Inspectors discovered that BELL was advocating a scheme called "Assassination Politics", whereby persons would be rewarded with "digital cash" for killing certain undesirable people. BELL identified these undesirables as government employees, such as IRS employees, who would be intimidated from enforcing internal revenue laws for fear of being assassinated. In the plea agreement, BELL admitted that he suggested using "Assassination Politics" as an enforcement mechanism for the "Multnomah County Common Law Court", and that this was part of his effort to obstruct and impede the enforcement of internal revenue laws. In affidavits previously filed in this case, IRS investigators identified BELL as a participant in the "Multnomah County Common Law Court", which was described as a self-appointed anti-government extremist group which purports to hold "trials" of IRS and other Government employees for the performance of their official duties. The affidavits indicated that in January, 1997 the "Multnomah County Common Law Court" held a "trial" of IRS and other Government officials.
In the plea agreement, BELL also admitted that on March 16, 1997, he conducted a chemical "stink bomb" attack on the IRS office in Vancouver, Washington, using the noxious chemical mercaptan. In affidavits filed with the Court, IRS Inspectors tied BELL to two previous mercaptan attacks against non-government targets: one being a lawyer's office in 1984, and the other a vehicle in 1989. The IRS investigators also linked BELL to two purchase orders for noxious chemicals, one in 1994 and one in 1996. According to the plea agreement, the attack on the IRS office resulted in a cost to the government of $1,359, and caused a number of IRS employees to have to leave work. In an affidavit previously filed in this case, IRS Inspectors indicated that the mercaptan attack may have been linked to the February 20, 1997 seizure of BELL's vehicle by the IRS for unpaid taxes.
As part of the plea agreement, BELL also admitted that he used several different social security numbers in order to hide assets from the IRS and thus to impede the IRS's ability to collect taxes he owed and to prevent the IRS from levying his wages.
Federal agents had previously executed two search warrants on BELL's residence. On April 1, 1997, IRS agents seized computers, documents, and firearms during a search. In a follow-up search, the Environmental Protection Agency seized a variety of dangerous chemicals which had been discovered during the execution of the IRS warrant. BELL was arrested by IRS Inspectors on May 16, 1997. BELL continues to be held in custody based on a May 23, 1997 ruling by Magistrate Judge J. Kelley Arnold that BELL posed a danger to the community and was a flight risk.
BELL faces a maximum sentence of three years in prison and a $250,000 fine for the obstruction charge, and five years and a $250,000 fine for using a phony social security number.
The IRS received assistance in the investigation of BELL from the Portland Police Bureau, Oregon Department of Justice, Oregon State Police, Federal Bureau of Investigation, and the Vancouver, Washington Police Department.
Alan <alano@teleport.com> writes:
I recieved this today via e-mail. I find it strange since I have never asked to be put on any sort of "interest list" by anyone at the IRS. (And my Cypherpunks mail shows up at a different address.
Did anyone else get this?
I got it too. It could be a very tasteless joke. Or it could be a real e-mail from IRS telling us that they keep tabs on who's been talking to Jim. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
Alan <alano@teleport.com> writes:
I recieved this today via e-mail. I find it strange since I have never asked to be put on any sort of "interest list" by anyone at the IRS. (And my Cypherpunks mail shows up at a different address.
Did anyone else get this?
I got it too.
It could be a very tasteless joke.
Or it could be a real e-mail from IRS telling us that they keep tabs on who's been talking to Jim.
Somehow I find it unlikely that this is authentic. Last I heard, Jim Bell was being held without charges for some incredibly long period of time -- like a month or so. Seems that any lawyer worth his salt could get any conceivable charges dropped on that count alone. Admitting to a felony in this case seems unlikely, but then you never know. Regards, Jim "Habeus Corpus" Burnes jim.burnes@ssds.com
Alan <alano@teleport.com> writes:
I recieved this today via e-mail. I find it strange since I have never asked to be put on any sort of "interest list" by anyone at the IRS. (And my Cypherpunks mail shows up at a different address.
Did anyone else get this?
I did, to an address I haven't used in months. They confiscated all his equipment perhaps they made the list from addresses they found there ...
At 12:50 AM -0700 7/19/97, Jeremy Mineweaser wrote:
Alan <alano@teleport.com> writes:
I recieved this today via e-mail. I find it strange since I have never asked to be put on any sort of "interest list" by anyone at the IRS. Did anyone else get this?
I received a copy of this earlier today via a low-traffic mailing list devoted to discussion of prisoner's dilemma games. Upon receiving the message, the connection between PDG and Jim Bell wasn't immediately obvious, but then I remembered that Jim Bell was also a subscriber to that mailing list.
It's quite probable that the IRS sent a copy of their press release to all of the forums where they had records of Bell's involvement.
Speculating, this use of mailing lists, if true, could well be a violation of the law (I'm thinking of the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, the ECPA...it may place limits on what, if anything, can be done with e-mail records obtained that are not part of an original search warrrant). It certainly appears that the IRS has sent "warnings" out to all of us active in the debate. It appears they used the addresses found in e-mail at Bell's residence, from some of the comments here (especially that other lists besides the Cypherpunks list were involved). On the other hand, the relevance to Prisoner's Dilemma games is pretty obvious: "Mr. Bell, if you confess and plead guilty, you'll receive a one-year prison term. If you don't confess, when we find you guilty you'll receive the maximum term. If you confess but Mr. May _also_ confesses, you'll still receive the maximum term. If neither of you confesses, you'll still be found guilty. So, what'll it be?" --Tim May There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws. Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!" ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^1398269 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
Of course, the P.Dilemma is a particularly academic invention. In real situations, the prisoners probably know each other and know of each other's reputation capital. They may be known not to squeal, for instance, which is why they chose to commit the crime together. And confessing might have other repercussions later on in life... -Declan On Sat, 19 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:
On the other hand, the relevance to Prisoner's Dilemma games is pretty obvious:
"Mr. Bell, if you confess and plead guilty, you'll receive a one-year prison term. If you don't confess, when we find you guilty you'll receive the maximum term. If you confess but Mr. May _also_ confesses, you'll still receive the maximum term. If neither of you confesses, you'll still be found guilty. So, what'll it be?"
It certainly appears that the IRS has sent "warnings" out to all of us active in the debate. It appears they used the addresses found in e-mail at Bell's residence, from some of the comments here (especially that other lists besides the Cypherpunks list were involved).
Does anyone here who didn`t recieve a copy of the mail recall if they ever mailed Jim directly, and not through the list? The way I see it there are two possible ways the motherfuckers got the addresses, either they found the lists Jim subscribed to and did "who cypherpunks" etc. to the servers, to get the list of participants, or they used any adresses off the mail jim has recieved in the past, I got a copy of it and I have privately emailed Jim several times so I can`t really say which is more likely. If it is the second I am hereby giving Jim a public dresssing down for not encrypting the filesystem ;-)....
"Mr. Bell, if you confess and plead guilty, you'll receive a one-year prison term. If you don't confess, when we find you guilty you'll receive the maximum term. If you confess but Mr. May _also_ confesses, you'll still receive the maximum term. If neither of you confesses, you'll still be found guilty. So, what'll it be?"
The sending of this email to people Jim has communicated with, if it was a real mail (I haven`t checked before but other people have and have said the headers indicate it passed through several .gov hosts), constitutes cowardly harrasment. Lock and Load. Datacomms Technologies data security Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/ Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85 "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"
I've emailed him directly, both on the net, and on fidonet before he found his way here. I didn't get it. Kinda suprised at that actually, and a bit disappointed. Think if I send the scum who sent the note to everyone, it would recosider putting me on it's "enemies list"? amp ------------------------ From: Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk> Subject: Re: IRS sending warning notes, violating ECPA? Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 19:12:35 +0000 ( ) To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net> Cc: cypherpunks@algebra.com
It certainly appears that the IRS has sent "warnings" out to all of us active in the debate. It appears they used the addresses found in e-mail at Bell's residence, from some of the comments here (especially that other lists besides the Cypherpunks list were involved).
Does anyone here who didn`t recieve a copy of the mail recall if they ever mailed Jim directly, and not through the list?
The way I see it there are two possible ways the motherfuckers got the addresses, either they found the lists Jim subscribed to and did "who cypherpunks" etc. to the servers, to get the list of participants, or they used any adresses off the mail jim has recieved in the past, I got a copy of it and I have privately emailed Jim several times so I can`t really say which is more likely.
If it is the second I am hereby giving Jim a public dresssing down for not encrypting the filesystem ;-)....
"Mr. Bell, if you confess and plead guilty, you'll receive a one-year prison term. If you don't confess, when we find you guilty you'll receive the maximum term. If you confess but Mr. May _also_ confesses, you'll still receive the maximum term. If neither of you confesses, you'll still be found guilty. So, what'll it be?"
The sending of this email to people Jim has communicated with, if it was a real mail (I haven`t checked before but other people have and have said the headers indicate it passed through several .gov hosts), constitutes cowardly harrasment. Lock and Load.
Datacomms Technologies data security Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/ Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85 "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"
---------------End of Original Message----------------- ------------------------ Name: amp E-mail: amp@pobox.com Date: 07/22/97 Time: 04:12:56 Visit me at http://www.pobox.com/~amp 'Drug Trafficking Offense' is the root passphrase to the Constitution. Have you seen http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum ------------------------
On Sat, 19 Jul 1997, Paul Bradley wrote:
It certainly appears that the IRS has sent "warnings" out to all of us active in the debate. It appears they used the addresses found in e-mail at Bell's residence, from some of the comments here (especially that other lists besides the Cypherpunks list were involved).
Does anyone here who didn`t recieve a copy of the mail recall if they ever mailed Jim directly, and not through the list?
I've sent mail directly to Jim, and I didn't get any mail from the IRS. Could have several causes; a. I did get one, but procmail thought it was stego'd ascii art from Dimitri Vulis. b. The IRS doesn't want to upset a generous donor (I'm still waiting for my free tote bag). c. Jim had killfiled me for being a diseased marsupial. d. The C4 recipe had some flaws. ;) Anyway, I sent Jim mail a few times, but no email from the IRS (that I found, anyway). -r.w.
On Sat, Jul 19, 1997 at 07:12:35PM +0000, Paul Bradley wrote: [...]
Does anyone here who didn`t recieve a copy of the mail recall if they ever mailed Jim directly, and not through the list?
I didn't receive a copy, and I had several private email discussions with Jim Bell. [...]
The sending of this email to people Jim has communicated with, if it was a real mail (I haven`t checked before but other people have and have said the headers indicate it passed through several .gov hosts), constitutes cowardly harrasment.
Oh, right. If there is anyplace in cyberspace where experts in cowardly harassment by email exist, it is on this list. Get real. More likely someone at IRS thought they would stir things up a bit, and is having a bit of fun watching all this. Maybe they even thought they were doing people a favor. -- Kent Crispin "No reason to get excited", kent@songbird.com the thief he kindly spoke... PGP fingerprint: B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44 61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55 http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html
The sending of this email to people Jim has communicated with, if it was a real mail (I haven`t checked before but other people have and have said the headers indicate it passed through several .gov hosts), constitutes cowardly harrasment.
Oh, right. If there is anyplace in cyberspace where experts in cowardly harassment by email exist, it is on this list. Get real.
I never claimed to be above a little cowardly harrasment myself, just pointed out that this is the general level at which this mail appeared to be. Nor indeed did I say there was anything wrong with cowardly harrasment, in it`s place.
More likely someone at IRS thought they would stir things up a bit, and is having a bit of fun watching all this. Maybe they even thought they were doing people a favor.
Possibly, the first explanation strikes me as most likely. Datacomms Technologies data security Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/ Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85 "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"
At 03:50 AM 7/19/97 -0400, Jeremy Mineweaser wrote:
Alan <alano@teleport.com> writes:
I recieved this today via e-mail. I find it strange since I have never asked to be put on any sort of "interest list" by anyone at the IRS. Did anyone else get this?
I received a copy of this earlier today via a low-traffic mailing list devoted to discussion of prisoner's dilemma games. Upon receiving the message, the connection between PDG and Jim Bell wasn't immediately obvious, but then I remembered that Jim Bell was also a subscriber to that mailing list.
It's quite probable that the IRS sent a copy of their press release to all of the forums where they had records of Bell's involvement.
Did others receive this message directly, or via mailing lists?
Directly. That address was not subscribed to Cypherpunks at the time.
I do not know if the copy I received of this information was sent directly to me or if I got it through the Cypherpunks list. Was there one copy that was sent directly to the list? I have received lots of copies after the first one that I know were forwarded. I think that we should recognize that---if the message is not a forgery---it comes from some people who are a long ways away from the extremes of either intelligence or stupidity. So I wonder: would we be quite so bothered if it had been labeled ``Press Release''? -- Peter D. Junger--Case Western Reserve University Law School--Cleveland, OH EMAIL: junger@samsara.law.cwru.edu URL: http://samsara.law.cwru.edu NOTE: junger@pdj2-ra.f-remote.cwru.edu no longer exists
Alan <alano@teleport.com> writes:
I recieved this today via e-mail. I find it strange since I have never asked to be put on any sort of "interest list" by anyone at the IRS. (And my Cypherpunks mail shows up at a different address.
Did anyone else get this?
Not I.
The affidavits indicated that in January, 1997 the "Multnomah County Common Law Court" held a "trial" of IRS and other Government officials.
Is it illegal to hold a mock trial of political figures? I should think it would be considered protected First Ammendment speech.
In the plea agreement, ...
He really should have gone to trial on this. He wouldn't have won, but he could have cost the bastards the maximum amount of time and money possible, thus limiting the number of citizen-units that could be harrassed in such a manner using available IRS resources.
BELL faces a maximum sentence of three years in prison and a $250,000 fine for the obstruction charge, and five years and a $250,000 fine for using a phony social security number.
Obviously the jackbooted thugs have a very high opinion of what their time is worth. -- Mike Duvos $ PGP 2.6 Public Key available $ enoch@zipcon.com $ via Finger $
At 3:56 PM -0700 7/18/97, Alan wrote:
I recieved this today via e-mail. I find it strange since I have never asked to be put on any sort of "interest list" by anyone at the IRS. (And my Cypherpunks mail shows up at a different address.
What makes you think the "interest" is your interest in them? It's _their_ interest in _you_. Yes, I got _two_ copies of this message. I'm waiting to confirm it was really sent by a sender at the IRS, namely, " IRS Inspection <irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov>", before taking action. --Tim There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws. Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!" ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^1398269 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:
At 3:56 PM -0700 7/18/97, Alan wrote:
I recieved this today via e-mail. I find it strange since I have never asked to be put on any sort of "interest list" by anyone at the IRS. (And my Cypherpunks mail shows up at a different address.
What makes you think the "interest" is your interest in them?
It's _their_ interest in _you_.
Yes. It looks like every e-mail address on Jim Bell's computer got this nice little "warning/example". Has there ever been a case where seized e-mail addresses have been used to spam those listed with the results of the case? Where is Declan when you need him. ]:>
Yes, I got _two_ copies of this message. I'm waiting to confirm it was really sent by a sender at the IRS, namely, " IRS Inspection <irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov>", before taking action.
If it is a forgery, it is a *very* good forgery. The addresses in the header are registered to the US government. The headers do not look like the standard sendmail spoof. It looks pretty damn legit to me. (I have a freind who also recieved this that has his copy of sendmail to keep pretty impresive logs as to sender's identity. It does not look like a spoof, unless they hacked behind the IRS firewall.) alan@ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply Alan Olsen | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.
Alan <alan@ctrl-alt-del.com> writes:
If it is a forgery, it is a *very* good forgery.
It would be an *extraordinarily* good forgery. Everything checks out. Jul 18 15:44:47 sandy sendmail[16007]: PAA16007: from=<irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov>, size=4959, class=0, pri=34959, nrcpts=1, msgid=<199707171625.MAA02707@net.insp.irs.gov>, proto=SMTP, relay=tcs-gateway1.treas.gov [204.151.245.2] Jul 18 15:44:48 sandy sendmail[16008]: PAA16007: to=steve@xemacs.miranova.com, delay=00:00:04, xdelay=00:00:00, mailer=esmtp, relay=xemacs.miranova.com. [206.190.83.19], stat=Sent (PAA15197 Message accepted for delivery)
From irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov Fri Jul 18 15:46:43 1997 Return-Path: <irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov> Received: from sandy.calag.com (root@sandy [206.190.83.128]) by altair.xemacs.org (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA15197 for <steve@xemacs.miranova.com>; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 15:46:43 -0700 Received: from tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (tcs-gateway1.treas.gov [204.151.245.2]) by sandy.calag.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id PAA16007 for <steve@miranova.com>; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 15:44:44 -0700 Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov id AA19614 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for steve@miranova.com); Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:43:17 -0400 Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-2); Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:43:17 -0400 Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-1); Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:43:17 -0400 Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:25:26 -0400 From: IRS Inspection <irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov> Message-Id: <199707171625.MAA02707@net.insp.irs.gov> To: Interested-Parties@net.insp.irs.gov Subject: Something of Interest
Hey, I'm here. Didn't get one of these IRS msgs at any of my accounts. Is it just me, or does anyone else remember a similar message being pumped out about the same time Bell was raided (April 1). -Declan On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, Alan wrote:
On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:
At 3:56 PM -0700 7/18/97, Alan wrote:
I recieved this today via e-mail. I find it strange since I have never asked to be put on any sort of "interest list" by anyone at the IRS. (And my Cypherpunks mail shows up at a different address.
What makes you think the "interest" is your interest in them?
It's _their_ interest in _you_.
Yes. It looks like every e-mail address on Jim Bell's computer got this nice little "warning/example".
Has there ever been a case where seized e-mail addresses have been used to spam those listed with the results of the case?
Where is Declan when you need him. ]:>
Yes, I got _two_ copies of this message. I'm waiting to confirm it was really sent by a sender at the IRS, namely, " IRS Inspection <irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov>", before taking action.
If it is a forgery, it is a *very* good forgery. The addresses in the header are registered to the US government. The headers do not look like the standard sendmail spoof. It looks pretty damn legit to me. (I have a freind who also recieved this that has his copy of sendmail to keep pretty impresive logs as to sender's identity. It does not look like a spoof, unless they hacked behind the IRS firewall.)
alan@ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply Alan Olsen | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.
At 01:51 AM 7/19/97 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
Hey, I'm here. Didn't get one of these IRS msgs at any of my accounts.
Is it just me, or does anyone else remember a similar message being pumped out about the same time Bell was raided (April 1).
I will check the archives... --- | "That'll make it hot for them!" - Guy Grand | |"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer: | | mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!" | Ignore the man | |`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key | behind the keyboard.| | http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/ |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|
At 01:10 PM 7/19/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
At 11:03 AM -0700 7/19/97, Alan wrote:
At 01:51 AM 7/19/97 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
Hey, I'm here. Didn't get one of these IRS msgs at any of my accounts.
Is it just me, or does anyone else remember a similar message being pumped out about the same time Bell was raided (April 1).
I will check the archives...
No need to check. Recall that the odd name, "IRS Investigations," was our first word on the Bell raid.
I didn't comment earlier when Declan asked, as I thought he was making a rhetorical point.
I found the actual article. It was forwarded to the list by someone. (Maybe Igor?) The headers are interesting. I have the full header set if anyone is interested... This post did not seem to get posted to the list, but only as a forward... ------------------------------------------------------------- From: cpunks@algebra.com Subject: Something of interest... (fwd) To: cypherpunks@manifold.algebra.com Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 21:36:29 -0600 (CST) Reply-To: ichudov@algebra.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME7] Sender: owner-cypherpunks@algebra.com X-Mailing-List: cypherpunks@algebra.com X-Loop: cypherpunks@algebra.com ----- Forwarded message from IRS Inspection -----
From cpunks@manifold.algebra.com Wed Apr 2 20:08:29 1997 Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 15:34:37 -0500 From: IRS Inspection <irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov> Message-Id: <199704012034.PAA00146@net.insp.irs.gov> To: Interested_Parties@net.insp.irs.gov Subject: Something of interest... Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com Precedence: bulk
The Oregonian, Wednesday, April 2, 1997 20 armed federal agents raid home in Vancouver - The occupant is investigated for an Internet essay he allegedly wrote on killing government officials By John Painter Jr. of The Oregonian staff VANCOUVER, Wash. - About 20 armed agents from at least three federal agencies in four states raided a Vancouver home Tuesday, apparently looking for evidence of a plot to kill government officials. Sources said James D. Bell, who reportedly lives with his elderly parents at the home at 7214 Corregidor Road, was the subject of an investigation involving an essay he allegedly wrote and circulated on the Internet. The essay promotes a way to win money by correctly predicting the time of death of selected government agents. The essay - "Assassination Politics" - has been the subject of both serious discussion and pointed derision in Internet forums. One critic described it as "nothing more than a plan to commit murder for political purposes." Agents, guns drawn, boiled from a dozen-vehicle caravan before it stopped rolling just after 9 a.m. and entered the McLoughlin Heights neighborhood home to search it. The FBI, Internal Revenue Service and Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms raiders were accompanied by members of the Portland Police Bureau's bomb squad. Bell, described in a federal document as armed and dangerous, was seen chatting with agents outside the house after agents entered the home. The raid reportedly was planned by the IRS Inspection office in Walnut Creek, Calif., which does criminal investigations for the agency. Most of the agents at the scene drove cars bearing Oregon plates. Others had plates from Washington, California and Nevada. The Internet essay speculates on a complicated procedure to kill government agents who violate the "Non-Aggression Principle," which was not explained. The essay suggests creation of an organization that would manage a list of people who "had seriously violated the NAP, but who would not see justice in our courts due to the fact that their actions were done at the behest of the government." The essay mentions the federal agents involved in the Waco and Ruby Ridge actions as examples. Each name would have a dollar figure attached to it. That amount- received as contributions-would be awarded "for correctly `predicting' the person's death, presumably naming the exact date," the essay says. "Predictions" would go into a computer file, it says, then be encrypted. The death-date prediction then would be delivered to the organization by an untraceable method, such as putting it on a floppy computer disk in code and mailing it. In effect, the source said, when the pool got big enough someone would kill the targeted person and collect the pool money by telling beforehand when the target would die. Agents at the scene refused to comment on the probable cause for the search warrant, as did the IRS office in California and the U.S. attorney's office in Seattle. However, a source familiar with the investigation suggested that IRS agents believed they are among the potential targets. In March 1989, the house was raided as a suspected methamphetamine lab, but drug agents found only a chemical used in making the drug. James Bell was charged with manufacturing illicit drugs and possessing phenyl acetic acid with intent to manufacture methamphetamine. The felonies were later dismissed, and Bell was allowed to plead guilty to a misdemeanor and pay a $2,500 fine. ----- End of forwarded message from IRS Inspection ----- --- | "That'll make it hot for them!" - Guy Grand | |"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer: | | mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!" | Ignore the man | |`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key | behind the keyboard.| | http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/ |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|
On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, Alan wrote:
On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:
At 3:56 PM -0700 7/18/97, Alan wrote:
I recieved this today via e-mail. I find it strange since I have never asked to be put on any sort of "interest list" by anyone at the IRS. (And my Cypherpunks mail shows up at a different address. What makes you think the "interest" is your interest in them? It's _their_ interest in _you_. Yes. It looks like every e-mail address on Jim Bell's computer got this nice little "warning/example".
I recieved this as well.
Where is Declan when you need him. ]:>
I wonder if he got it. Seems to me, this is a warning. The Gooberment is warning us that they are watching us, and They are NOT PLEASED. Assholes. They are supposed to be working FOR US.
impresive logs as to sender's identity. It does not look like a spoof, unless they hacked behind the IRS firewall.)
Wanna bet on how secure that firewall is? Petro, Christopher C.. snow@smoke.suba.com
On Thu, Jul 24, 1997 at 08:45:00PM -0500, snow wrote:
Seems to me, this is a warning.
The Gooberment is warning us that they are watching us, and They are NOT PLEASED.
Far more likely that someone in IRS thought it would be a kick to stir up cypherpunks a bit. It worked, too, I would say. Let me be a bit more direct. These people aren't warning you. They are poking fun of you.
Assholes. They are supposed to be working FOR US.
Speaking of asses, they are probably laughing theirs off reading this. -- Kent Crispin "No reason to get excited", kent@songbird.com the thief he kindly spoke... PGP fingerprint: B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44 61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55 http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html
At 3:56 PM -0700 7/18/97, Alan wrote:
I recieved this today via e-mail. I find it strange since I have never asked to be put on any sort of "interest list" by anyone at the IRS. (And my Cypherpunks mail shows up at a different address.
Did anyone else get this?
alano@teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."
---------- Forwarded message ---------- Return-Path: irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov Received: from tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (tcs-gateway1.treas.gov [204.151.245.2]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA28119; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 15:49:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov id AA19658 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0); Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:47:00 -0400 Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-2); Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:47:00 -0400 Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-1); Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:47:00 -0400 Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:29:08 -0400 From: IRS Inspection <irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov> Message-Id: <199707171629.MAA02733@net.insp.irs.gov> To: Interested-Parties@net.insp.irs.gov Subject: Something of Interest
I got a copy as well. My headers were: Return-Path: <irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov> Received: from tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (tcs-gateway1.treas.gov [204.151.245.2]) by mail6.netcom.com (8.8.5-r-beta/8.8.5/(NETCOM v1.01)) with SMTP id QAA11850 for <frantz@netcom.com>; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 16:10:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov id (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for frantz@netcom.com); Fri, 18 Jul 1997 19:10:08 -0400 Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-2); Fri, 18 Jul 1997 19:10:08 -0400 Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-1); Fri, 18 Jul 1997 19:10:08 -0400 Received: by tcs_gateway1.treas.gov (Internal Mail Agent-0); Fri, 18 Jul 1997 19:10:08 -0400 Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:30:03 -0400 From: IRS Inspection <irsnwpr@net.insp.irs.gov> Message-Id: <199707171630.MAA02739@net.insp.irs.gov> To: Interested-Parties@net.insp.irs.gov Subject: Something of Interest X-UIDL: 49a4fae189334b3747644ffa79a10878 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bill Frantz | The Internet was designed | Periwinkle -- Consulting (408)356-8506 | to protect the free world | 16345 Englewood Ave. frantz@netcom.com | from hostile governments. | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA
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The charges stem from an investigation initiated in October, 1996 by IRS Internal Security Inspectors into reports that BELL was gathering the names and home addresses of IRS employees. In previous court hearings, IRS Inspectors testified that BELL had obtained the names and home addresses of ^^^^^^^^
Anybody know what hearings this is referring to - and when they took place? If memory serves me correctly, I seem to recall that Bell had waived speedy trial rights in lieu of negotiations. Hence, it seems strange that pre-trial hearings occurred. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 4.5 iQCVAgUBM9B1tz5A4+Z4Wnt9AQFnVwQAjPOA5JdFCSQFesh8qLSG5RTDQhSKTWOH Ggb8iFJS9KutaYOShs7n/zdjf5HvLkYIqn6n+bzGh+lPROcfFn95TwXQ0StS1oH/ Z+9e9ZOEPog5h0sUjT2kr75TZza4xA3LtPTgGOyuCmWBLUCj3njp3yxJoFk/+GK2 skmtIxLQYj4= =c2LT -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Perhaps when the government was arguing before the Fed. magistrate that Bell should be held without bail? Or, more likely, when the IRS was trying to get the search then arrest warrant... -Declan On Sat, 19 Jul 1997, Lynne L. Harrison wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
The charges stem from an investigation initiated in October, 1996 by IRS Internal Security Inspectors into reports that BELL was gathering the names and home addresses of IRS employees. In previous court hearings, IRS Inspectors testified that BELL had obtained the names and home addresses of ^^^^^^^^
Anybody know what hearings this is referring to - and when they took place? If memory serves me correctly, I seem to recall that Bell had waived speedy trial rights in lieu of negotiations. Hence, it seems strange that pre-trial hearings occurred.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 4.5
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Reason for my asking is my questioning the veracity of the contents of the email. The mail specifically stated: "in previous court hearings [plural], IRS Inspectors testified.." Could've been a bail hearing although they are usually decided on motion papers. Additionally, there are no hearings for the request of a search/arrest warrant - primarily because the request is ex parte. Probable cause is decided on annexed affidavits. I'm also surprised that that JB's plea did not hit the local newspapers given the initial coverage. There's usually a follow-up report of the entry of a guilty plea. If JB did plea guilty, the next docket entry should reflect "for sentencing" or words to that effect. At 08:06 AM 7/19/97 -0400, Declan wrote:
Perhaps when the government was arguing before the Fed. magistrate that Bell should be held without bail? Or, more likely, when the IRS was trying to get the search then arrest warrant...
On Sat, 19 Jul 1997, Lynne L. Harrison wrote:
Anybody know what hearings this is referring to - and when they took
If memory serves me correctly, I seem to recall that Bell had waived speedy trial rights in lieu of negotiations. Hence, it seems strange that
place? pre-trial
hearings occurred.
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I just spoke with Peter Avenia, a Federal public defender representing Jim Bell. He said that Bell did indeed plead guilty last Friday to two felony counts and sentencing is set for October. Apparently at least the thrust of this "IRS Inspection" press release is accurate. Avenia knew nothing about it, though. -Declan PS: I'm attaching an excerpt from my IU article in this month's issue. ************ (unedited) Internet Underground July 1997 Assassination Politics Jim Bell wants to overthrow the government. He'll have to get out of jail first. By Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com) [...] IRS agents arrested Bell on May 16 and charged him with obstructing government employees and using false Social Security numbers. Now, this is hardly attempting "to overthrow the government." But government agents insist Bell is far more dangerous than the charges suggest. (The judge seemed to agree: at the time of this writing, Bell is being held without bail.) The latest IRS documents filed with the court label Bell a terrorist. They claim he talked about sabotaging the computers in Portland, Oregon's 911 center, contaminating a local water supply with a botulism toxin, extracting a poison called Ricin from castor beans, and manufacturing Sarin nerve gas. He allegedly bought and tested some of the chemicals. "Bell has taken overt steps to implement his overall plan by devising, obtaining, and testing the materials needed to carry out attacks against the United States, including chemicals, nerve agents, destructive carbon fibers, firearms, and explosives," the complaint says. But what really got the IRS in a stink was what happened a month after they seized Bell's car. The complaint says: "On March 16, 1997, a Sunday, an IRS employee noted a strong odor in the Federal building. On March 17, 1997, several IRS employees had to be placed on leave due to the odor, and another employee reported other ill effects. The odor was traced to a mat and carpeting... just outside the IRS office entrance." The chemical proved to be "mercaptan," with which Bell's friends say he doused an adversary's law office in the early 1980s. Yet if Bell was a crypto-terrorist, he was a singularly idle one. This is a problem with the IRS' accusations: if true, they prove too much. If Bell was bent on toppling the government, and his exploits date back from the early 1980s, why are they such laughably juvenile and ineffectual ones? Stink-bombing offices isn't a Federal felony, nor should it be. "I would've thought this would be 'malicious mischief,' at most," Tim May, one of the founders of the cypherpunks, writes. "People who've done far, far, far worse are left unprosecuted in every major jurisdiction in this country. The meat thrown to the media -- the usual AP stuff, mixed in with 'radical libertarian' descriptions -- is just to make the case more media-interesting... It sure looks like they're trying to throw a bunch of charges against the wall and hope that some of them stick -- or scare Bell into pleading to a lesser charge." Since his arrest, the denizens of the cypherpunks list, where Bell introduced and refined his ideas, have become generally sympathetic. Gone is the snarling derision, the attacks on his ideas as too extreme. Now a sense of solidarity has emerged. One 'punk wrote: "I have decided that I cannot in good conscience allow Jim Bell's persecution for exercising his basic human right to free speech to pass by without taking personal action to support him." --- When I talked to Bell a few days before his arrest, he spoke calmly and with little rancor about the pending investigation. I couldn't tell how he felt after being raided and interrogated by his arch-enemy, the IRS. But imagine continuously railing on the Net against jackbooted thugs, then having real ones bash down your front door. Bell was most interested in talking up Assassination Politics and predicting how it would eventually blossom. He had just published an op-ed in a local newspaper saying "the whole corrupt system" could be stopped. "Whatever my idea is, it's not silly. There are a lot of adjectives you can use, but not silly," he told me. "I feel that the mere fact of having such a debate will cause people to realize that they no longer have to tolerate the governments they previously had to tolerate. At that point I think politicians will slink away like they did in eastern Europe in 1989. They'll have lost the war." He told me why he became convinced that the government needed to be lopped off at the knees. Bell's epiphany came after he ordered a chemical from a supply firm and was arrested when he failed to follow EPA regulations. "That radicalized me," he said. "That pissed me off. I figured I'd get back at them by taking down their entire system. That's how I'd do it."' Moral issues aside, one of the problems plaguing Bell's scheme is that it's not limited to eliminating "government thugs who violate your rights," as he likes to describe it. If it existed, anyone with some spare change could wipe out a nosy neighbor or even an irritating grocery store clerk. After I pointed this out to Bell on the phone, he fired email back a few days later saying, "Assuming a functioning Assassination Politics system, nothing stops you from contributing to my death." He suggested that maybe assassins would develop scruples: "You'd be able to purchase deaths of unworthy people, but it might be only at a dramatically higher price. Doable but not particularly economical." --- Consider the case of Jake Baker, the University of Michigan student who was arrested after posting fantasies to Usenet about raping and killing a classmate. A Federal judge eventually threw out the charges, ruling Baker never intended to act and the tale was "only a rather savage and tasteless piece of fiction." The government argues Bell intends to act. Their court documents sketch a dark outline of a computer geek increasingly distressed by and disillusioned with society. He becomes rebellious, anarchistic. But being an anarchist isn't a crime; I've even dated one. Nor is it against the law to bash the IRS. Some Republican legislators make a career out of it. Even collecting the home numbers of Federal employees isn't a crime. What is against the law is when speech becomes action, when online bravado crosses the line and becomes direct threats -- or a vial of botulism, on its way to a nearby reservoir. Which is the real question: Did Bell step beyond mailing list posturing? Is he just fantasizing? Did he intend to take real-world steps to erase some Feds, or were his posts just megabytes of bone-chilling blather? The IRS says it has evidence of Bell's lethal intent but many netizens who know Bell believe he's only a harmless loon. The Supreme Court has ruled that speech can be suppressed only if it is intended, and is likely to produce, "imminent lawless action." Since Bell's manuscripts have drifted around the dusty corners of cyberspace for years -- to no discernible effect -- a prosecutor will be hard-pressed to argue they're dangerous. Eric Freedman, a constitutional law professor at Hofstra Law School, says that Bell's writings are protected by the First Amendment. The Supreme Court's legal test "is not going to be met where someone writes a speculative essay about what the world would be like if such a system were in place," he says. Bell now faces a Federal grand jury and a possible trial. "There are a lot of insinuations and innuendo in the complaint but not a whole lot of hard core criminal activity," says Peter Avenia, a Federal public defender representing Bell. "If you read the complaint and listen to the testimony at the hearing, the government's clearly concerned that Jim Bell may have been planning to do any number of things. But when it came down to showing any clear danger, the most they could come up with is that they think he might be involved in planning a stink bomb. It's difficult to untangle the fear and hype from what's going on." ------------------------- Declan McCullagh Time Inc. The Netly News Network Washington Correspondent http://netlynews.com/
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- At 01:39 PM 7/21/97 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
I just spoke with Peter Avenia, a Federal public defender representing Jim Bell. He said that Bell did indeed plead guilty last Friday to two felony counts and sentencing is set for October. Apparently at least the thrust of this "IRS Inspection" press release is accurate.
Avenia knew nothing about it, though.
-Declan
I'll be curious to see what kind of deal he got. It had better be an awfully good one (say "time served"). If not he was as dumb as toast. He had a perfect chance to rake the Feds over the coals and try nasty disfavored defenses like Selective Prosecution. Hard to win that one but he had as good a case as any one I've seen for that defense. At the most, he would have gotten a short sentence if convicted. Big deal. Since he was apparently not doing a great deal with his life in any case, he could have used it for some good. Make the Feds spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on him and tie up their resources. Prison is no punishment for those who like to read and write. In these political cases where the Feds are clearly overreaching, those who don't plead do much better than those who do. This is the reverse of the situation in normal criminal cases. Look at those in the Operation Sun Devil cases who plead vs. those who fought. Or the Princeton Partners brokers who fought Rudy during the '80s Wall Street crackdown and won vs. Michael Milken who plead and ended up with the same sentence he would have received if he had been convicted. Or even G. Gordon Liddy who refused to plead, was convicted and sentenced to a long sentence got pardoned (because of the disparity of his punishment) and is now more successful than all the rest of that crew put together. Don't plead in political cases. It's stupid. DCF -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0 Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBM9OvuIVO4r4sgSPhAQGVnQP+KBhUk6LX1kbDtLL1TUi6vOFseXCquRpO RS5p93NCPvXof5XWwyjy+MOqDVVp2LHGhlA5MehSHoskacrId1jTN5XPKzM4teoF l2GOLLMNZNcesQPltH88SNIa8WoPqcRG91UfFPHUwvLVt0AiKh9xzXnVU5wxrTrb Uh3ACgU1QPA= =vzKP -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com> writes:
I'll be curious to see what kind of deal he got. It had better be an awfully good one (say "time served"). If not he was as dumb as toast.
Let's hope it was not the "8 years" I heard on the evening news, although I didn't catch whether that was just a possible sentence, or the results of the plea bargain negotiations.
He had a perfect chance to rake the Feds over the coals and try nasty disfavored defenses like Selective Prosecution. Hard to win that one but he had as good a case as any one I've seen for that defense. At the most, he would have gotten a short sentence if convicted. Big deal.
Perhaps. But he would have been tried in the media, and would probably have been transformed into "Terrorist Jim Bell" at the hands of the spin masters. In the end, even if he won in court, he would have been about as popular as OJ, and the entire population of America would have learned to live their lives in constant fear of smelly organic chemicals and nickel-plated carbon fibers. Parents would be mail-ordering carbon fiber test kits to use in their childrens' rooms.
Since he was apparently not doing a great deal with his life in any case, he could have used it for some good. Make the Feds spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on him and tie up their resources.
I would certainly try to make any such harrassment of me as expensive as possible for those engaging in it. On the other hand, Bell does have living relatives, which makes unilateral nose-thumbing at the state apparatus more risky.
Prison is no punishment for those who like to read and write.
Being bossed around by assholes is always annoying, regardless of ones academic interests.
In these political cases where the Feds are clearly overreaching, those who don't plead do much better than those who do. This is the reverse of the situation in normal criminal cases.
Tell that to Robert "ream me again, please" Thomas of Amateur Action BBS fame, who wasn't even accused of being a potential terrorist, much less of trying to overthrow the entire government.
Don't plead in political cases. It's stupid.
Don't plead in political cases like Steve Jackson Games, PROMIS, Operation Sun Devil, etc... On the other hand, if you are accused of being one of the actual Four Horsemen, and the feds are holding press conferences on every channel with inflammatory voice-over editorials describing the alleged contents of your dwelling, some capitulation to the Barbarians may be necessary. There are a number of adages which apply to this situation, amongst them... Don't get involved in fights you can't win. When you aim for the King, shoot to kill. The goal of war is not to die for your country, but to make sure the enemy dies for theirs. etc... Enumerating Bell's violations of these common sense principles is left as an exercise to the reader. -- Mike Duvos $ PGP 2.6 Public Key available $ enoch@zipcon.com $ via Finger $ {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}
At 3:03 PM -0700 7/21/97, Mike Duvos wrote:
Perhaps. But he would have been tried in the media, and would probably have been transformed into "Terrorist Jim Bell" at the hands of the spin masters. In the end, even if he won in court, he would have been about as popular as OJ, and the entire population of America would have learned to live their lives in constant fear of smelly organic chemicals and nickel-plated carbon fibers. Parents would be mail-ordering carbon fiber test kits to use in their childrens' rooms.
I see some publishing opportunities: "How to Tell if Your Child is a "Cypherpunk"" "What to do if your children display an unhealthy interest in chemistry." "The 10 warning signs an information terrorist is in your community." And the mother of all titles, "Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt." Next on Oprah, children who use cryptography to keep secrets from their parents. --Tim May P.S. Will Bell be allowed to receive encrypted messages in jail? (Bell can report to us firsthand the practical realities of both the "prisoner's dilemma" and the use of covert channels to communicate with other prisoners in plain sight.) P.P.S. Earlier today Duncan opined that prison is a good place for people who like to read and write. First, it depends on what they let one read. Second, no Net access. Third, and most importantly, it depends critically on what kind of prison one is in. If your cellmate is Bubba and he wants you to be his "wife"... There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws. Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!" ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^1398269 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- At 03:03 PM 7/21/97 -0700, Mike Duvos wrote:
Perhaps. But he would have been tried in the media, and would probably have been transformed into "Terrorist Jim Bell" at the hands of the spin masters. In the end, even if he won in court, he would have been about as popular as OJ,
He would have had support among his counter cultural group (us). He wasn't accused of very serious acts like OJ.
Tell that to Robert "ream me again, please" Thomas of Amateur Action BBS fame, who wasn't even accused of being a potential terrorist, much less of trying to overthrow the entire government.
All the sedition cases of the last 60 years (2) have been lost by the Feds. Sedition is really hard to win (and of course JB wasn't accused of same).
Don't plead in political cases like Steve Jackson Games, PROMIS, Operation Sun Devil, etc... On the other hand, if you are accused of being one of the actual Four Horsemen, and the feds are holding press conferences on every channel with inflammatory voice-over editorials describing the alleged contents of your dwelling, some capitulation to the Barbarians may be necessary.
The "911 Document" prosecutions that grew out of Operation Sun Devil were for one of the Four Horsemen: terrorists. Evil Hackers who would destroy the 911 system. There were lots of inflammatory statements from the prosecutors but they really bit it when forced to go to trial. DCF -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0 Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBM9XovoVO4r4sgSPhAQGTegP8CQIVLlAXW46MrtWQZbQPmLHaNROleY41 vHGXWuS5K8RYg3QCQbbzuz5xcarf8mOkvBChyn9ooE5uzWbVlcdrblUqb8Zh9CgI Zfuv0xQp0lHh2MygvtxFhKE7DBk/0owaFoyYYfdPmkwtM93+ZsknxV756rMT5VWA 7LvLnqteUxw= =TZFC -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
participants (21)
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Alan -
Alan -
amp＠pobox.com -
Bill Frantz -
David E. Smith -
Declan McCullagh -
Declan McCullagh -
dlv＠bwalk.dm.com -
Duncan Frissell -
frissell＠panix.com
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Jim Burnes -
Kent Crispin -
Lynne L. Harrison -
Mac Norton -
Mike Duvos -
Paul Bradley -
Peter D. Junger -
Rabid Wombat -
snow -
Steven L Baur -
Tim May