Re: ecash Press Release
DIGICASH PRESS RELEASE
I have a gut feel that this DigiCash(TM) system is going to become a *really big deal*. Real electronic cash, portable software-only solution, free client-side software: sounds like a winning combination. I'm excited. Jim_Miller@suite.com
On Thu, 26 May 1994, Jim Miller wrote:
DIGICASH PRESS RELEASE
I have a gut feel that this DigiCash(TM) system is going to become a *really big deal*. Real electronic cash, portable software-only solution, free client-side software: sounds like a winning combination. I'm excited.
Before you get too enthusiastic remember that electronic cash is not legal tender which means that you will require some clearing system behind this scheme providing conversion between a legal tender and electronic cash before this is getting really useful. Without such a system electronic cash is just prepaid "tokens" with the usability similar to the "tokens" on telephone cards. For those that thinks this will be "the end of the gouvernment": Who do you think will be in control of this clearing system? Just asking ;-) However I do think that this DigiCash stuff is a Good Thing -- certainly better than mailing credit card numbers over the net :-) -- Rolf ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rolf Michelsen "Standards are wonderful -- Email: rolf.michelsen@delab.sintef.no everyone should have one" Phone: +47 73 59 87 33 -- Ancient FORTH proverb ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Rolf Michelsen says:
Before you get too enthusiastic remember that electronic cash is not legal tender
I have to mention, yet again, that this sort of phrasing is a product of the notion that digital cash is somehow a currency. It is not. It is an anonymous money transfer method. Saying "digicash is not legal tender" is sort of meaningless -- the real question is "is the currency being transfered legal tender". Perry
On Fri, 27 May 1994, Perry E. Metzger wrote:
Rolf Michelsen says:
Before you get too enthusiastic remember that electronic cash is not legal tender
I have to mention, yet again, that this sort of phrasing is a product of the notion that digital cash is somehow a currency. It is not. It is an anonymous money transfer method. Saying "digicash is not legal tender" is sort of meaningless -- the real question is "is the currency being transfered legal tender".
Yes, and if you had quoted my entire message you would get my point. Since electronic cash is not legal tender -- just a way of transfering legal tender -- a clearing system which administrates the "real flow of money" must exist so that participants can exchange their "transfer tokens" to "real" cash. -- Rolf ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rolf Michelsen "Standards are wonderful -- Email: rolf.michelsen@delab.sintef.no everyone should have one" Phone: +47 73 59 87 33 -- Ancient FORTH proverb ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Rolf Michelsen says:
On Fri, 27 May 1994, Perry E. Metzger wrote:
Rolf Michelsen says:
Before you get too enthusiastic remember that electronic cash is not legal tender
I have to mention, yet again, that this sort of phrasing is a product of the notion that digital cash is somehow a currency. It is not. It is an anonymous money transfer method. Saying "digicash is not legal tender" is sort of meaningless -- the real question is "is the currency being transfered legal tender".
Yes, and if you had quoted my entire message you would get my point. Since electronic cash is not legal tender -- just a way of transfering legal tender -- a clearing system which administrates the "real flow of money" must exist so that participants can exchange their "transfer tokens" to "real" cash.
It appears that you still insist on refering to the question of whether or not digital cash is "legal tender". The question isn't usually considered meaningful. When you say that "digital cash is not legal tender" you are making a reasonably meaningless statement. Its like comparing the flavor of the photograph of a dish of Chicken Kiev with the flavor of a photograph of a Granny Smith apple. Sure, you can make the comparison -- but usually people realize that there is some problem in levels -- usually one wants to compare the flavors of foods, not photographs of them. (The photographs have a taste, as do all objects, but no one in his right mind would eat them.) Are checks legal tender? No. Technically, they are not. No one ever bothers to mention this fact, however. Its not interesting. Checks are not legal tender, and neither are trucks filled with bank vaults. None the less, both are ways of transfering money. Neither is money-the-abstraction itself, but most people don't think thats noteworthy enough to make a big deal about. You mention that digital cash requires a clearing system. Thats true. Its also true that a champion marathon runner requires legs. Most people don't see fit to mention that -- it usually seems obvious. You say things like "without a clearing system digital cash is only a worthless token good for things like tolls". Thats untrue. Without a clearing system digital cash can't be used for ANYTHING. Without clearing, a bit of digital cash is just a number -- a large number with no more or less value than any one of the infinitely many other large numbers. A clearing system is INTEGRAL to digital cash. I can't just hand someone digital cash -- a clearing system has to be involved in all transactions. Perry
This will be the last I have to say on this matter (hear... hear...), not because it's an uninteresting matter but it has been (heavily) debated before and it's approaching weekend time in Norway :-) On Fri, 27 May 1994, Perry E. Metzger wrote: [Delete key used heavily...]
Are checks legal tender? No. Technically, they are not. No one ever
I agree!! That's why they require a clearing system (which cash doesen't). A cheque has no intrinsic value (which cash have -- well, since the gouvernment says so). A cheque has value only because it can be cashed.
You mention that digital cash requires a clearing system. Thats true. Its also true that a champion marathon runner requires legs. Most people don't see fit to mention that -- it usually seems obvious. You say things like "without a clearing system digital cash is only a worthless token good for things like tolls". Thats untrue. Without a clearing system digital cash can't be used for ANYTHING. Without clearing, a bit of digital cash is just a number -- a large number with no more or less value than any one of the infinitely many other large numbers. A clearing system is INTEGRAL to digital cash. I can't just hand someone digital cash -- a clearing system has to be involved in all transactions.
Here I think we are nearing the real issue. We agree that all electronic cash schemes require clearing, yes? The problem is that many schemes are specified without this system which means that it can't be used in real life situations. Just see (almost) any paper on digital cash. This was my intended point when commenting on the original postings. The DigiCash scheme probably is *great* but it won't be *usefull* by everybody in an open system before a clearing organization exists. Due to gouvernment regulations etc a clearing system is not trivially implemented. Since it wasn't explicitly mentioned (as a cooperation with a bank, VISA etc) I assume that it's (for the time) non existant which again means that it will take some time before this cash scheme is useable by the public at large. -- Rolf ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rolf Michelsen "Standards are wonderful -- Email: rolf.michelsen@delab.sintef.no everyone should have one" Phone: +47 73 59 87 33 -- Ancient FORTH proverb ----------------------------------------------------------------------
C'punks, Stop! Unless you know what you're talking about, there is really no reason to post about this thread. On Fri, 27 May 1994, Rolf Michelsen wrote:
. . . Here I think we are nearing the real issue. We agree that all electronic cash schemes require clearing, yes? . . . The DigiCash scheme probably is *great* but it won't be *usefull* by everybody in an open system before a clearing organization exists. Due to gouvernment regulations etc a clearing system is not trivially implemented. . . .
Wrong. I thought Perry was quite clear on this. A clearing "system" is anyone or anything that will clear a transaction. Any bank that issues and/or accepts digital cash may *clear* it. Folks, we've been through this before. You get paid some digital money. You deposit it to your account at the 1st Digital Bank and Grill. You go to the store and buy a shirt. You pay using the VISA card issued to you by FDB&G. Need some cash? Take your FDB&G ATM card and go to any cash machine displaying the Plus logo. Simple isn't it? I don't want to have to explain this again. S a n d y
participants (4)
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jim＠bilbo.suite.com -
Perry E. Metzger -
Rolf Michelsen -
Sandy Sandfort