crosspost re remailers
Sorry to send this in blind. Over a year ago I switched from watching the "mutitions" R&D works to being an observer/participant on a small "test war." Once in a while, I send in a report. If you have comments which you want me to see, email them. Thanks, Keith Henson ******* Subject: Re: <<< Repost the NOTS everywhere! >>> Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology,comp.org.eff.talk,alt.censorship References: <4ml2cv$c52@utopia.hacktic.nl> <4mrsf0$esn@news.bridge.net> <4ms9na$l24@Networking.Stanford.EDU> <4msu79$jdi@news.bridge.net> <henriDr5rpD.CqD@netcom.com> <4nae9i$bf7@news2.texas.net> Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) Distribution: inet Hoyos (hoyos@millenium.texas.net) wrote: : henry (henri@netcom.com) wrote: : : >What I find disturbing is certain people who were visibly outraged by : : >Steven Fishman's "outings" are supportive of the remailer abuse, _as_well_ : : remailer ABUSE? how is it remailer ABUSE to use them for their : : intended purposes. : Remailers exist to destroy copyrights? I always thought they were around : to ensure a certain amount of anonymity, not to permit people to destroy : copyrights and get away with it. Hoyos, you *can't* destroy copyright, period. Trade secrets are another matter, and I suppose you can make a case that the ability of a certain powerful cult to extract money or labor from the gulible has been reduced. I know some of the people who wrote the first cypherpunk remailers. They have been watching the uses to which the remailers have been put. The long drawn out battle between the CoS and the Net has been of as much interest to them as the performance of large guns at the front was to Krup. I can't speak for all of them--actually, I can't speak for *any* of them, but the ones who have said anything about the recent uses of the remailers do not seem unhappy. There may be some discussion related to this on the cypherpunks mailing list. But if you sign up, be prepaired for a flood. Keith Henson Crossposted to cypherpunks
On Tue, 14 May 1996, Keith Henson wrote:
was to Krup. I can't speak for all of them--actually, I can't speak for *any* of them, but the ones who have said anything about the recent uses of the remailers do not seem unhappy. There may be some discussion related to this on the cypherpunks mailing list.
Actually, there hasn't really been any discussion on cypherpunks, which I find a little surprising. I'd have thought that a remailer going down because of political/legal pressure would raise more of a ruckus. People seem jaded, but I'm not sure why. I posted a half dozen articles to comp.org.eff.talk, more to stimulate discussion than to argue a position. We trolled up a statement from Hal Finney to the effect that remailers might need to be restricted in order to save them -- which I found to be rather provocative, but nobody said anything. Anybody? -rich
anything. Anybody?
I'm still waiting for my subpoena. I feel like a failure without it. -- Sameer Parekh Voice: 510-601-9777x3 Community ConneXion, Inc. FAX: 510-601-9734 The Internet Privacy Provider Dialin: 510-658-6376 http://www.c2.net/ (or login as "guest") sameer@c2.net
On Tue, 14 May 1996, Keith Henson wrote:
was to Krup. I can't speak for all of them--actually, I can't speak for *any* of them, but the ones who have said anything about the recent uses of the remailers do not seem unhappy. There may be some discussion related to this on the cypherpunks mailing list.
Actually, there hasn't really been any discussion on cypherpunks, which I find a little surprising. I'd have thought that a remailer going down because of political/legal pressure would raise more of a ruckus. People seem jaded, but I'm not sure why.
I posted a half dozen articles to comp.org.eff.talk, more to stimulate discussion than to argue a position. We trolled up a statement from Hal Finney to the effect that remailers might need to be restricted in order to save them -- which I found to be rather provocative, but nobody said anything. Anybody?
The remailer capacity is quite underdone, there aren't really that many remailer servers out there. Only TWO servers outside the US. Only ONE server making direct posts to netnews. And what, two or three nym servers? Obviously this is severe undercapacity and we need to start up MUCH more servers and FAST, ESPECIALLY in foriegn countries. IMHO, trying to make it more user friendly to use remailers is pointless considering the limited number of servers to use. I'm CLUELESS about this stuff, I'd love to help, at least by distributing code and exact intructions to make it as easy as possible to encourage clueless types to start it up. So what is the expense of setting up a full-featured server like hacktic? Mr. Graves should start up a new server, and tcmay is rich, so he has no excuse. -- God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference
On Wed, 15 May 1996, Be Good wrote:
So what is the expense of setting up a full-featured server like hacktic? Mr. Graves should start up a new server, and tcmay is rich, so he has no excuse.
No, rich is a good excuse for _not_ doing it, unless it can be done with total anonymity. If I set up a remailer, on my home computer, as an individual, then I am a very little target. I have nothing (well, damn little) for anyone to sue me over. What would be the point? They threaten to sue me for what? They would spend FAR more than they could ever get out of me, and as long as I don't violate any laws, I _might_ be able to get "big guns" like the ACLU, EFF etc. on my side to make it a nasty fight for no return. Someone like Mr. May has assets that can be gotten, so there is potential for gain from a lawsuit against him, both financially and otherwise. Rich is neither reason, nor excuse. Capability is the issue. It would probably be easier for me to run a remailer than Mr. May, not that I am better equipped mentally, but (until I started posting to this list). Come to think of it, would the Mixmaster package run under Xenix? I have a 286 laying around collecting dust... Petro, Christopher C. petro@suba.com <prefered for any non-list stuff> snow@crash.suba.com
Come to think of it, would the Mixmaster package run under Xenix? I have a 286 laying around collecting dust...
relay@suburbia.net is running a type2 remailer (mixmaster) Use at will. -- "Of all tyrannies a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies, The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis, _God in the Dock_ +---------------------+--------------------+----------------------------------+ |Julian Assange RSO | PO Box 2031 BARKER | Secret Analytic Guy Union | |proff@suburbia.net | VIC 3122 AUSTRALIA | finger for PGP key hash ID = | |proff@gnu.ai.mit.edu | FAX +61-3-98199066 | 0619737CCC143F6DEA73E27378933690 | +---------------------+--------------------+----------------------------------+
ON
On Wed, 15 May 1996, Be Good wrote:
So what is the expense of setting up a full-featured server like hacktic? Mr. Graves should start up a new server, and tcmay is rich, so he has no excuse.
No, rich is a good excuse for _not_ doing it, unless it can be done with total anonymity. If I set up a remailer, on my home computer, as an individual, then I am a very little target. I have nothing (well, damn little) for anyone to sue me over. What would be the point? They threaten to sue me for what? They would spend FAR more than they could ever get out of me, and as long as I don't violate any laws, I _might_ be able to get "big guns" like the ACLU, EFF etc. on my side to make it a nasty fight for no return.
I wasn't thinking of liability, just capacity. And you don't understand political harrassment suits. Would you believe that someone worth $50,000 could be served a $10,200,000 judgement by a jury, fully upheld by the Oregon and U.S. Supreme courts, Dwelling, business, custumers' property seized, 25% of income annexed for 20 years, all by the plaintiff with the assistance of the court, merely for publicy speaking to a crowd, the advocacy of violence, when later that night two members of the audience murdered a stranger apparantly following that "advice," with the plaintiff publicly gloating before|during|post trial, that the actual violence was merely a VEHICLE for the SUPPRESSION of the organization of the advocacy of the ENTIRE political spectrum of the defendants? Ask our resident "free speech for RESPECTABLE dissidents," L. Lurch@stanford.edu (racial capitali$t d0g) for a virulent defense of Co$ style tactics against racists. Ask him about SPLC, Seraw vs WAR, Tom, John METZGER. Straight from the horses ass, go to the library and read 89-93 issues of KLANWATCH to find out what lying oriental anti-racists are ADVOCATING and GETTING. What the hell is the difference between the anti-racist tactics of Co$ and SPLC, and being forced to your knees by the policeman's nightstick, merely for advocating "moronic" politics? The VIOLENCE to free speech rights is the same.
Someone like Mr. May has assets that can be gotten, so there is potential for gain from a lawsuit against him, both financially and otherwise.
Do you really think that SPLC and Co$ sue to raise funds?
Rich is neither reason, nor excuse. Capability is the issue. It
True, I doubt he would take the risk. What we mean is that once an EASY remailer tech is distributed, THOUSANDS will seriously be interested in it. After all, did the complexity of linux keep 100,000+ unix newbies from learning *ix from scratch?
would probably be easier for me to run a remailer than Mr. May, not that I am better equipped mentally, but (until I started posting to this list).
Come to think of it, would the Mixmaster package run under Xenix? I have a 286 laying around collecting dust...
Ugh. I've got a 386 and 4megs, partitioned and compiled linux, pgp, Mixmaster. It WILL work once mastering the darned thing. IMHO, the IDEAL remailer is the following: What CAN be done right now, with anyone with linux and shell unix, account paid by fake name/address with postal money order, is have the linux machine dial up the account, several times a day, process the mailbox, download the mail, process the mail with pgp or mixmaster, upload to account, post/email with the appropriate header lines and VOILA!! !!!!!!!!!! FULL FEATURED HACKTIC STYLE REMAILER !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Unfortunately I DON'T know how to DO any of this. Isn't someone else want to crank something out and share? Post around instructions for the clueless to follow. There. The number of full featured remailers increases from 0 to 100-300+. -- Serenity, etc.
I responded to Skippy's on-topic, more or less substantive questions about remailers in Message-ID <Pine.GUL.3.93.960518010958.19939C-100000@Networking.Stanford.EDU> This has absolutely nothing to do with crypto, but that's what I subscribed to coderpunks for. On Fri, 17 May 1996, Dave Harman wrote:
Ask our resident "free speech for RESPECTABLE dissidents," L. Lurch@stanford.edu (racial capitali$t d0g) for a virulent defense of Co$ style tactics against racists. Ask him about SPLC, Seraw vs WAR, Tom, John METZGER.
I grew up 15 minutes from Metzger and played soccer with one of his kids, and he threatened some friends of mine. I've talked to his sidekick Wyatt Kaldenberg about other things, and defended their absolute right to free speech on occasion. But other than that, I don't know much about Metzger. Skippy seems to have this illusion that I'm some big bad anti-racist, which I find amusing. Another WAR/CoS mal-analogy one could scrawl is that Metzger has paid about as much of the judgement awarded to the murder victim's family as CoS has paid to Wollersheim. But I wouldn't follow that line of reasoning myself, since I'm no fan of the SPLC. Maybe they did a good thing in the Seraw murder case, but their current suit agaist Pierce's neo-Nazi National Alliance seems rather SLAPP-ish to me. I'm sure Morty would try to justify going after deep-pocket racists by saying that they deserve it because the $4.5 million or so that The Order White Nationalist Revolutionary [cough] Movement liberated from banks and convenience stores has never been recovered, but he's wrong. Sure Bobby claimed to be doing those robberies in the name of the Aryan Cause, but it looks like he really spent the money on himself, just like any other "political" crook (the Contras, the FMLN, Sendero, the Machateros, the US Congress, etc). The SPLC probably has a web server somewhere with more details, but there's a minimal amount of information about the case at: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/m/metzger.tom http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?orgs/american/war Tom Metzger's web page (sorry, it's actually John Metzger's web page, which happens to carry all sorts of stuff from Tom -- you see, facing a $10 court judgement upheld by the Supreme Court, Tom has sworn an oath of poverty to avoid giving the Zionist Occupational Government any more blood money) is at: http://www.free.cts.com/crash/m/metzger/ -rich http://www.c2.org/~rich/Not_By_Me_Not_My_Views/rebuttal.html
I responded to Skippy's on-topic, more or less substantive questions about remailers in Message-ID <Pine.GUL.3.93.960518010958.19939C-100000@Networking.Stanford.EDU> This has absolutely nothing to do with crypto, but that's what I subscribed to coderpunks for.
On Fri, 17 May 1996, Dave Harman wrote:
Ask our resident "free speech for RESPECTABLE dissidents," L. Lurch@stanford.edu (racial capitali$t d0g) for a virulent defense of Co$ style tactics against racists. Ask him about SPLC, Seraw vs WAR, Tom, John METZGER.
I grew up 15 minutes from Metzger and played soccer with one of his kids, and he threatened some friends of mine. I've talked to his sidekick Wyatt Kaldenberg about other things, and defended their absolute right to free speech on occasion. But other than that, I don't know much about Metzger. Skippy seems to have this illusion that I'm some big bad anti-racist, which I find amusing.
Another non-rebutted rebuttal. I care nothing about yours or Metzgers personal life, this is FAR ramnificated severity. And, the anology I made CLEARLY was the similarity between Co$ and SPLC; And the VICTIMS: WAR and Wollersheim,Fishman,etc. CO$ AND WAR DON'T HAVE THE SLIGHTEST RESEMBLANCE!!!:
Another WAR/CoS mal-analogy one could scrawl is that Metzger has paid about as much of the judgement awarded to the murder victim's family as CoS has paid to Wollersheim. But I wouldn't follow that line of reasoning myself, since I'm no fan of the SPLC. Maybe they did a good thing in the
And, the anology I made CLEARLY was the similarity between Co$ and SPLC; And the VICTIMS: WAR and Wollersheim,Fishman,etc. CO$ AND WAR DON'T HAVE THE SLIGHTEST RESEMBLANCE!!!:
Seraw murder case, but their current suit agaist Pierce's neo-Nazi National Alliance seems rather SLAPP-ish to me. I'm sure Morty would try
SPLC vs WAR set the SHOCKING precedent.
to justify going after deep-pocket racists by saying that they deserve it because the $4.5 million or so that The Order White Nationalist Revolutionary [cough] Movement liberated from banks and convenience stores has never been recovered, but he's wrong. Sure Bobby claimed to be doing
ADL claimed $50,000 was funneled to NA from the beginning. No proof whatsoever, as they havn't pressed the matter to proceedings.
those robberies in the name of the Aryan Cause, but it looks like he really spent the money on himself, just like any other "political" crook (the Contras, the FMLN, Sendero, the Machateros, the US Congress, etc).
You mean he laundered the money right before his death, and his hiers got it all? WOW! What a Don!
The SPLC probably has a web server somewhere with more details, but there's a minimal amount of information about the case at:
http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/m/metzger.tom http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?orgs/american/war
These say nothing. SPLC has avoided the net, because it's two periodicals are so embarrassing to the anti-racists. You need to go to the library and check up on Klanwatch for the years 89-93 for the sordid details.
Tom Metzger's web page (sorry, it's actually John Metzger's web page, which happens to carry all sorts of stuff from Tom -- you see, facing a $10 court judgement upheld by the Supreme Court, Tom has sworn an oath of
$10,200,000!!!! 25% of income confiscated for 20 years!!!
poverty to avoid giving the Zionist Occupational Government any more blood money) is at:
Ignoroid, ALL the Metzger funds are being transfered with the large mulatto Seraw family as sole beneficiary. Co$/SPLC political harassment cases are NOT done to raise funds, but suppress organisation.
http://www.free.cts.com/crash/m/metzger/
-rich http://www.c2.org/~rich/Not_By_Me_Not_My_Views/rebuttal.html
-- God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference
On Fri, 17 May 1996, Dave Harman wrote:
IMHO, the IDEAL remailer is the following:
What CAN be done right now, with anyone with linux and shell unix, account paid by fake name/address with postal money order, is have the linux machine dial up the account, several times a day, process the mailbox, download the mail, process the mail with pgp or mixmaster, upload to account, post/email with the appropriate header lines and VOILA!!
!!!!!!!!!! FULL FEATURED HACKTIC STYLE REMAILER !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Unfortunately I DON'T know how to DO any of this. Isn't someone else want to crank something out and share? Post around instructions for the clueless to follow.
Actually, you can be even more clueless than that and still run a remailer, pretty much as you describe. See: http://www.c2.org/~winsock/ But that requires MicroSnot software rather than Linux, and of course, your ISP is liable to shut you down, without notice, as soon as they realize what you're doing. The service location and survivability problems remain. The POP/SMTP remailer idea has a lot of promise forprospective remailer operators who are clueless and/or lack a full-time net connection, but you still need to be upfront with your ISP about the fact that you're running a remailer. The best ISPs will let you. I'm quite impressed with Portal (or does Hal have something on them?), but I doubt Netcom would let you into the remailer racket. c2.org, of course, has enough remailers on it already, but I did play with the WinSock Remailer for a bit. It should be quite trivial to hack something like it together for Linux. Just run fetchmail or whatever as a POP client, pipe the mail spool to your mixmaster, and SMTP away. -rich http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/m/metzger.tom http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?orgs/american/war http://www.free.cts.com/crash/m/metzger/
On Wed, 15 May 1996, Be Good wrote:
The remailer capacity is quite underdone, there aren't really that many remailer servers out there. Only TWO servers outside the US. Only ONE server making direct posts to netnews. And what, two or three nym servers? Obviously this is severe undercapacity and we need to start up MUCH more servers and FAST, ESPECIALLY in foriegn countries.
[..]
I'm CLUELESS about this stuff, I'd love to help, at least by distributing code and exact intructions to make it as easy as possible to encourage clueless types to start it up.
So what is the expense of setting up a full-featured server like hacktic? Mr. Graves should start up a new server, and tcmay is rich, so he has no excuse.
Exactly. I'd like to here some remarks from people who have ran remailers regarding what kind of bend it has put on their bandwidth and servers. I just happen to Admin. several servers on the other side of a leased line... Josh Richards (jrichard@slonet.org) (jrichard@fix.net) SLO Street Tech Development (Computer Services) <URL:http://www.fix.net/jrichard>
participants (7)
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hkhenson＠netcom.com -
Josh Richards -
Julian Assange -
qut＠netcom.com -
Rich Graves -
sameer＠c2.org -
snow