Another Censorship, Freedom of Speech, Rights of Vendor Issue
To supporters of freedom of speech - please read, act and share this as your conscience dictates: Unofficially excerpted from Infoworld 3/7/94 Brian Livingston's Window Manager column. "Can CompuServe succeed in silencing Windows dissenters? Having your electronic mail account cut off is the modern equivalent of solitary confinement. Many services I use, such as Microsoft Windows forums, exist exclusively on systems such as the CompuServe Information Service. There is no other place for information. "That's why I took notice when CompuServe threatened to cut off a subscriber's account if he even mentioned on-line a lawsuit that the company filed against him. "Compuserve filed suit January 31 in Federal District Court in Ohio against Richard S. Patterson, the developer of a shareware program called Windows Navigator (WinNAV), which he has distributed on Compuserve for several years. This suit came about after Patterson complained on a Compuserve forum last December that the company's plans to release a product called Windows Navigator infringed upon his trademarks. "Prior to initiating the suit, Compuserve modified the name of its product to CompuServe Navigator, Windows Version. It asks the court to find that Patterson has "no trademark rights" that it has infringed, and for an unspecified monetary penalty. "I don't know who will prevail in this suit. But what really bothers me is this threat in a letter to Patterson dated January 31, from Kevin J. Osterkamp, Compuserve's attorney in the firm of Roetzel and Andress, of Columbus, Ohio; "I am as legal counsel for Compuserve compelled to advise you that it is Compuserves position that you will be terminated if you mention, discuss, or comment upon the lawsuit or the issues related thereto as a part of the CompuServe Information Service. Termination will also result from any other disparagment of Compuserve, its management, employees, or business practices. "I've never met Mr. Patterson, but I know him tangentially from his other software, Zip Tools, which appears in Windows Gizmos. "My columns have promoted CompuServe many times, so I asked for it's position. The gist of the reply I received from Mr. Oster- kamp was this: "Regarding the case of Compuserve vs. Patterson, my ethical obligations (and Mr. Patterson's) prohibit me from commenting directly on the case. I can, however, assure you that our request that Mr. Patterson stop using Compuserve's online services to disparage the company is simply good, old-fashioned common sense. After all, why should CompuServe - or any online service - allow a disgruntled party the opportunity to bad- mouth the company in its own forum? "Why, indeed? It's called "a free exchange of ideas." It is much sought after by people around the world. "If AT&T could cut off my phone because I criticized them while using long distance, we would be in very serious danger of losing our freedom. "It is unclear whether electronic services are "common carriers" (like AT&T) that must carry all communications, or "publishers" (like magazines) that are legally responsible for the words they choose to print. "But Compuserve knows which it prefers to be. In separate cases, it has been sued by the National Music Publishers Association and Cubby Inc. for distributing material uploaded by subscribers. Compuserve argues that it should be free from any liability because "it is a distributor and not a publisher." "Our future "information highway" will inevitably center on just five or six giant corporations. That's why it's so important that access not be denied to someone whom these entities don't like. "Because children read forums, I agree that obscene language should be banned. But I've read the forum messages, and Patterson is not guilty of that. "Do me a favor. Sit down right now and tap out a message to Mauryve Cox, the CEO of Compuserve. His I.D. number is 70003,1550. Tell him how important it is to you that no one be denied access to Compuserve forums. Send me a copy, if my account still works after this column appears. (Brian Livingston is the author of "Windows 3.1 Secrets" and "More Windows Secrets", and co-author of "Windows Gizmos." Send tips to Compuserve: 70053,2035; or fax: (206) 282-1248.)
actually, I find it fucking obscene! On Sat, 26 Mar 1994, Brad Huntting wrote:
"Because children read forums, I agree that obscene language should be banned....
There's excellent essay on obscenity in Kurt Vonegut's _Psalm Sunday_ which I recommend to anyone who doesn't find this statement horrendously offensive.
brad
Paul Braunbehrens writes:
actually, I find it fucking obscene!
On Sat, 26 Mar 1994, Brad Huntting wrote:
"Because children read forums, I agree that obscene language should be banned....
There's excellent essay on obscenity in Kurt Vonegut's _Psalm Sunday_ which I recommend to anyone who doesn't find this statement horrendously offensive.
Brad Huntting is absolutely right: children are known to be reading this forum, so your use of the term "fucking obscene" is therefore illegal, not permitted, unethical, tasteless, and fucking disgusting! So, shithead, I demand a retraction this fucking minute! Or else! Under the rules under which the Information Snooperhighway is run, the Tipper Chip will automatically censor your messages for instances of the 73 Forbidden Words (George Carlin, weep!) and the 192 Banned Thoughtforms. Impure and seditious traffic will not be tolerated. --Infosturmbahnfuhrer T.C. May P.S. I can't _believe_ a Cypherpunk is actually advocating censorship. If "obscenity" is banned, the logical corollary is that some folks will be put in prison for continuing to say "fuck" and "freedom" and other words deemed to be obscene by some Legion of CyberDecency. Can this be what Brad Huntting really wants? (Tell us it was just a joke of color, or something.) As for kids reading this list or the Net in general, and seeing "obscenity" on it, how is this any different or any worse than kids sneaking a look at their Dad's "Busty Babes" (times have changed since I was a kid) or tuning in to a shot of naked butts on "NYPD Blue"? What about young and impressionable children being exposed to atheism on the Net? Or to cultural values that offend their families? Or to any of a hundred other horrors? The only solution to this "problem" in a free society is for _parents_ to control their own children, not to apply censorship and obscenity laws. And practically speaking, it's impossible anyway. The Internet is worldwide, with no centralized point of censorship. Tipper Gore can no more hope to censor the publication of "dirty" music lyrics on the Net than the Ayotollah can hope to stop publication of recipes for pork. It's a whole new world out there. Kurt Vonnegut: welcome to the monkey house. If Kurt really called for censorship, I'll have to reevaluate my respect for him. Too bad Frank Zappa isn't available to have a chat with him about the nature of censorship. -- .......................................................................... Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@netcom.com | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero 408-688-5409 | knowledge, reputations, information markets, W.A.S.T.E.: Aptos, CA | black markets, collapse of governments. Higher Power: 2^859433 | Public Key: PGP and MailSafe available. "National borders are just speed bumps on the information superhighway."
"Because children read forums, I agree that obscene language should be banned....
There's excellent essay on obscenity in Kurt Vonegut's _Psalm Sunday_ which I recommend to anyone who doesn't find this statement horrendously offensive.
...
P.S. I can't _believe_ a Cypherpunk is actually advocating censorship.
... Gee Tim... I think we might have to send you back to the indoctrination center for some vocab' rehabilitation. After all, there are probably children reading this list. If I recall (and it's been a couple years since I read this), Vonnegut makes the argument that the whole concept of obscenity and it's censorship is a Victorian thought control device. Whether it's TV executives putting per hour quota's on forbidden words, or yokeles getting _Lysistrada_ pulled from highschool classics courses, it's censorship and it's obscene.
As for kids reading this list or the Net in general, and seeing "obscenity" on it, how is this any different or any worse than kids sneaking a look at their Dad's "Busty Babes" (times have changed since I was a kid) or tuning in to a shot of naked butts on "NYPD Blue"?
Heaven forbid!
What about young and impressionable children being exposed to atheism on the Net? Or to cultural values that offend their families? Or to any of a hundred other horrors?
The only solution to this "problem" in a free society is for _parents_ to control their own children, not to apply censorship and obscenity laws.
Indeed, chain them to the bed and put bricks on their heads.
And practically speaking, it's impossible anyway. The Internet is worldwide, with no centralized point of censorship. Tipper Gore can no more hope to censor the publication of "dirty" music lyrics on the Net than the Ayotollah can hope to stop publication of recipes for pork.
It's a whole new world out there.
Kurt Vonnegut: welcome to the monkey house. If Kurt really called for censorship, I'll have to reevaluate my respect for him. Too bad Frank Zappa isn't available to have a chat with him about the nature of censorship.
Think about it Tim... When I saw Vonnegut speak at C.U. in the 80's, he spent the majority of his speech damning the christian right for it's neo-victorian book banning activities. brad P.S. Thanx for the correction, it's Vonnegut (two n's) and _Palm Sunday_, not "Psalm". All other spelling errors are deliberate can be placed with extreme prejudice in the offended readers genitalia.
P.S. I can't _believe_ a Cypherpunk is actually advocating censorship.
...
Gee Tim... I think we might have to send you back to the indoctrination center for some vocab' rehabilitation. After all, there are probably children reading this list.
If I recall (and it's been a couple years since I read this), Vonnegut makes the argument that the whole concept of obscenity and it's censorship is a Victorian thought control device. Whether it's TV executives putting per hour quota's on forbidden words, or yokeles getting _Lysistrada_ pulled from highschool classics courses, it's censorship and it's obscene.
Whew! Thanks, Brad, for setting me straight on this. I _did_ think you were endorsing censorship, not having seen the Vonnegut piece and not knowing he was making an ironic point. In my defense, to the extent there _is_ one, I've seen public figures go dotty (and I _do_ mean like Dorothy) in their old age, supporting all kinds of strange and fascist positions in defense of the Old Order. But I guess that in Vonnegut's case, that would be too unbelievable. (In Heinlein's case, though.....) I'm fucking relieved. --Tim May -- .......................................................................... Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@netcom.com | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero 408-688-5409 | knowledge, reputations, information markets, W.A.S.T.E.: Aptos, CA | black markets, collapse of governments. Higher Power: 2^859433 | Public Key: PGP and MailSafe available. "National borders are just speed bumps on the information superhighway."
Ah, Tim, err, Brad was on our side here pal 8) Vonnegut had a neat little thing making the previous "Because children read furom, I agree that abscene language should be banned.." quote look stoooooopid. I also think it was "Palm Sunday" not Psalm. 8)
Under the rules under which the Information Snooperhighway is run, the Tipper Chip will automatically censor your messages for instances of the 73 Forbidden Words (George Carlin, weep!) and the 192 Banned Thoughtforms. Impure and seditious traffic will not be tolerated.
That was a damn good skit that Carlin did, almost as good as the thing he does about politically correct terms 8)
--Infosturmbahnfuhrer T.C. May
P.S. I can't _believe_ a Cypherpunk is actually advocating censorship. If "obscenity" is banned, the logical corollary is that some folks will be put in prison for continuing to say "fuck" and "freedom" and other words deemed to be obscene by some Legion of CyberDecency. Can this be what Brad Huntting really wants? (Tell us it was just a joke of color, or something.)
No, it was simply a misinerpretation, and misattribution. Noe Brad said whoever didnt find that quote "Because Children....." obscene should rad the Vonnegut thing, snce they would actually find the quote calling for censoring obscene itself.
Kurt Vonnegut: welcome to the monkey house. If Kurt really called for censorship, I'll have to reevaluate my respect for him. Too bad Frank Zappa isn't available to have a chat with him about the nature of censorship.
OH NONONONO, Kurt doesnt support censorship at all, and his commentary on it is quite enlightening. Do you think the guy who wrote about seeing the bodies of young school girls boiled in the water tower at Dresden would support censorship, or the guy who wrote _Breakfast Of Champions_ with various ridiculously funny hand drawn pictures of anatomy etc..., or the guy who discovered that the main reason we have wars is for women's underwear 8) Dont worry Tim, we realize it was only a misattribution most likely do to the often confusing format that some people do their quotes in 8)
-- .......................................................................... Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@netcom.com | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero 408-688-5409 | knowledge, reputations, information markets, W.A.S.T.E.: Aptos, CA | black markets, collapse of governments. Higher Power: 2^859433 | Public Key: PGP and MailSafe available. "National borders are just speed bumps on the information superhighway."
You're eqipped with a hundred billion nueron brain, that's wired and fired, and it's a reality generating device, but you've got too do it. Free youself ----Tim Leary----
Tired: Clipper Chip. Wired: Tipper Chip.
participants (6)
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Brad Huntting -
Fred Heutte -
Grand Epopt Feotus -
jdwilson＠gold.chem.hawaii.edu -
paul braunbehrens -
tcmay＠netcom.com