Is anyone else interested in setting up a radio net (probably packet radio relay) to relay small quantities of data in the event the telecommunications infrastructure becomes unavailable (either technically or legally/politically/ militarily)? There are existing packet relay nets, but in my experience amateur radio people, especially in the US, are very willing to roll over for the government at the slightest cause. I think the cost would be something like $1-5k per station, and it could be done in a fairly turnkey fashion. Exactly how to handle routing and what protocol to use on the network is kind of an open question -- there are a lot of solutions, none of them optimal.
At 02:29 PM 9/8/98 -0400, Ryan Lackey wrote:
Is anyone else interested in setting up a radio net......<snip>
I have been thinking allot about this over the last couple of months. I have subscribed to a packet radio mailing list (linux-hams@vger.rutgers.edu (majordomo@vger.rutgers.edu)) just to lurk so I could get a feel for what it took to set such a network up. Much of my family are hams and have dabbled in packet radio at one time or another. They say once set up it works well (slow but dependable) and is an ideal way to carry non-real-time traffic in an emergency. As far as a secure network, that's why I lurk in this list. :-) If such a thing should ever be outlawed or restricted most Hams I know are law abiding citizens and would more than likely conform (No Ham should take offence to this, its meant with the best intentions and respect). I think a radio network linked to the Amateur networks sending secure packets, using tunneling or maybe just encrypted traffic (There may be some FCC rules regarding this. I don't want to break any laws so am still looking into this part.) with nodes connected to the internet (or other network as well ... Remember FIDOnet) would be a good idea. The Ham networks will probably stand up well in the case of a national emergency. That's something these folks are real good at. In the off chance that the telecommunications Infrastructure becomes unavailable due to political or other reasons, some of which have been discussed quite often here. This network could break off and stand on its own carrying important traffic for those whose need to communicate with loved ones and business associates would be worth whatever risk might befall them. If Y2K turns out to be a real problem (as I believe it might) or something else happens. I plan on still being able to communicate with my loved ones; business associates, and hopefully still get this list. :-) I plan on adding another dedicated LINUX box for this in the near future and will be looking for others with the same types of concerns to link with.
I think the cost would be something like $1-5k per station, and it could be done in a fairly turnkey fashion.
I think it would be considerably less money wise, and still could be done properly. I would be interested in hearing anyone's thoughts on this and maybe communicating with other like-minded individuals off list. Since this list seems to have attracted a lot of attention from the authorities as of late. I wonder what the ratio of cypherpunks to spooks (IRS, FBI, NSA, British Intelligence, Government informants, and assorted other agent types) on this list is now :-) Would all the spooks please raise your hands? You... in the back listening quietly.... Is that you Inspector Gordon? :-) -- Bill H. billh@ibag.com -- William J. Hartwell (602)987-8436 Queencreek, Az. billh@ibag.com billh@interdem.com billh@hartwell.net
William J Hartwell <billh@ibag.com> writes:
I think a radio network linked to the Amateur networks sending secure packets, using tunneling or maybe just encrypted traffic
FCC regulations prohibit amateur radio services from carrying either encrypted OR commercial traffic. Either of these restrictions makes amateur radio networks useless for CP purposes. And hams are very diligent at self-enforcement, often devoting hundreds of man-hours to track down a single unlicenced operator. Anyone who wishes to establish a network that may -- at any point in its life -- have to operate outside the "law" (whatever THAT happens to be at the time) will be well advised to steer clear of the amateur radio community.
Soren <sorens@workmail.com> writes:
What about SSB?
FCC regulations prohibit amateur radio services from carrying either encrypted OR commercial traffic.
SSB modulation hardly counts as encryption. (?!) CFR 47 <http://www.fcc.gov/oet/info/rules/> says: 97.113 Prohibited transmissions. (a) No amateur station shall transmit: (1) Communications specifically prohibited elsewhere in this part; (2) Communications for hire or for material compensation... (3) Communications in which the station licensee or control operator has a pecuniary interest... (4) Music using a phone emission except as specifically provided elsewhere in this section; communications intended to facilitate a criminal act; messages in codes or ciphers intended to obscure the meaning thereof, except as otherwise provided herein; obscene or indecent words or language; or false or deceptive messages, signals or identification; (5) Communications...which could reasonably be furnished alternatively through other radio services. [snip] 97.117 International communications. Transmissions to a different country, where permitted, shall be made in plain language and shall be limited to messages of a technical nature relating to tests, and, to remarks of a personal character for which, by reason of their unimportance, recourse to the public telecommunications service is not justified.
What about SSB? User of DOOM wrote:
William J Hartwell <billh@ibag.com> writes:
I think a radio network linked to the Amateur networks sending secure packets, using tunneling or maybe just encrypted traffic
FCC regulations prohibit amateur radio services from carrying either encrypted OR commercial traffic. Either of these restrictions makes amateur radio networks useless for CP purposes. And hams are very diligent at self-enforcement, often devoting hundreds of man-hours to track down a single unlicenced operator.
Anyone who wishes to establish a network that may -- at any point in its life -- have to operate outside the "law" (whatever THAT happens to be at the time) will be well advised to steer clear of the amateur radio community.
HyperReal-Anon wrote:
Soren <sorens@workmail.com> writes:
What about SSB?
FCC regulations prohibit amateur radio services from carrying either encrypted OR commercial traffic.
SSB modulation hardly counts as encryption. (?!) CFR 47 <http://www.fcc.gov/oet/info/rules/> says:
97.113 Prohibited transmissions.
(a) No amateur station shall transmit:
(1) Communications specifically prohibited elsewhere in this part;
(2) Communications for hire or for material compensation...
(3) Communications in which the station licensee or control operator has a pecuniary interest...
(4) Music using a phone emission except as specifically provided elsewhere in this section; communications intended to facilitate a criminal act; messages in codes or ciphers intended to obscure the meaning thereof, except as otherwise provided herein; obscene or indecent words or language; or false or deceptive messages, signals or identification;
(5) Communications...which could reasonably be furnished alternatively through other radio services.
[snip]
97.117 International communications.
Transmissions to a different country, where permitted, shall be made in plain language and shall be limited to messages of a technical nature relating to tests, and, to remarks of a personal character for which, by reason of their unimportance, recourse to the public telecommunications service is not justified.
The point being that Single side band transceivers are covered by a VHF license, and don't count as ham/amateur although the spectrum overlaps. Morse and other archaic codes are not required. Connectivity to telephonic land stations is available. In the mid-80's I purchased a yacht and sailed out over the horizon. In the preparation stages for this I investigated the comms availability and ran head on into the old boys/popular mechanics of the '50's crowd, that insisted I endure their hazing ceremony and learn Morse. Suspecting that adding morse parsing to the deep structures of my brain would turn me into a popular mechanic, I declined. Other alternatives existed -- one SW solution was to type in ascii which was then translated into morse before sending (and vice versa). Seems several other would be Cap'n Blighs, had the same problem. Hence marine electronic stores started stocking SSB transceivers, which I purchased in the form of a ham transceiver with factory installed disabling for the US. I disabled that strap pronto, and was able to enjoy both listening to the cruising ham tag hunters, and make telephone calls from 5000 miles out in the Pacific (12,000 when calling Bay of Islands net in New Zealand). I had no problem using it to discuss work and to ship data. Whether I was breaking the Federal Communist Channels rules or not, I can't say. Of course, not being a United Socialists citizen makes this easier. Where I come from you get the license/call numbers when you purchase the equipment. And while I've got your attention, on another thread entirely re: renewable energy sources -- where I come from we use geothermal and hydroelectric (think hoover dam), to power the country. A lot of individuals who have steady flowing water with a good head, on their properties, also power themselves this way. We also use LPG and CNG to power about 50% of our autos. I would expect that using all that relatively cheap electricity to produce metal hydrides would make hydrogen powered vehicles viable as well. The Union of Socialist Americans tends to not have much in the way of raging rivers, so there have been discussions about harnessing the moon's energy by building tidal hydro generators. Last I heard, the environmentalists thought it might hurt the fishies (more than fishing for agricultural fertilizer?), so nuclear it is. I suspect there's more to it than that, nuclear probably has more dick-stroking factor.
Ryan Lackey wrote:
Is anyone else interested in setting up a radio net (probably packet radio relay) to relay small quantities of data in the event the telecommunications infrastructure becomes unavailable (either technically or legally/politically/ militarily)? There are existing packet relay nets, but in my experience amateur radio people, especially in the US, are very willing to roll over for the government at the slightest cause.
I think the cost would be something like $1-5k per station, and it could be done in a fairly turnkey fashion. Exactly how to handle routing and what protocol to use on the network is kind of an open question -- there are a lot of solutions, none of them optimal.
This is a very nice idea but tread carefully here. RF communications is one area in which the no-domestic-crypto law IS established. The idea of spies with shortwaves in their cigar boxes may seem hopelessly outdated but I think the law still stands. Talk to some packet radio guys - I think some have had trouble just sending unknown file formats. This was a while back though - who knows - progress may have been made. Mike
participants (6)
-
HyperReal-Anon -
Michael Motyka -
Ryan Lackey -
Soren -
User of DOOM -
William J. Hartwell