Re: Utah as a Religious Police State
(I received this message, with "cypherpunks@sybase.com" as well as "tcmay@sybase.com" (???) cc:ed, so I assume this message was intended for the Cypherpunks list, with some sybase domain name weirdness, or reflector, going on.) At 12:30 PM -0400 9/29/96, Ryan Russell/SYBASE wrote:
I guess that depends on your definition of liberty. The Mormons originally moved there to have a place to practice their religion, and have freedom from persecution. I suppose one could extend that to wanting a place to have the freedom to have a set of rules consistant with their beliefs. Should that include freedom from interferance from folks such as yourself who want to change their rules, even though you're not presently effected?
Well, if Utah can rig a way to _secede_ from the Union, your arguments would make more sense. But so long as they are part of these United States, their religious beliefs about when children should be at home cannot supersede basic liberties. (There are some thorny issues about whether _minors_ have full civil rights. But I certainly know that _my_ civil rights are being affected when my children are not allowed on the streets after some hour. If my child is out, this is my problem. I neither want cops to stop-and-detain my children, nor do I want my tax monies to be used to control the behavior of other people's children. Providing no crimes are being committed, curfews for the sake of controlling the behavior of children are no more just than would be a bunch of related behavior control laws, e.g., a ban on comic books, a mandate that all children join after-school youth leagues, etc.) As for "changing their rules," you're missing the point. There are presumably many in Utah who believe as I do (maybe even some Mormons). Those who are living in Utah, as renters, owners, whatever, should not be bound by unconstitutional rules, no matter how many Mormon Elders favor them. Unless the Mormons own _all_ of the property (and maybe not even then, as renters have civil rights), they cannot impose their own notions of morality on the rest of the population, except in compelling cases (e.g., involving the well-known actual _crimes_). I don't mean to pick on Mormons, as other communities have also attempted to impose curfews and other restricitions on the children of others. My ire was raised by Attila's enthusiastic support for laws which no freedom-loving person should be enthusiastic about. Again, I have no problem with Attila restricting his own children's movements, or joining with other parents to control the behavior of their _own_ children, via religious camps, religious schools, youth leagues, etc. He can even make his own kids wear funny uniforms, funny religious hats, whatever. But, for example, tellling _me_ when _my_ children may be out on public streets (doing nothing illegal, neither robbing nor spray-painting nor committing any other real crimes) is unacceptable. I urge Attila (and others) to rethink enthusiastic support for curfews. --Tim May We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^1,257,787-1 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
I never cease to be surprised by the interest that gentiles show in working mormon communities while totally neglecting their own failing areas. On Sun, 29 Sep 1996, Timothy C. May wrote:
(I received this message, with "cypherpunks@sybase.com" as well as "tcmay@sybase.com" (???) cc:ed, so I assume this message was intended for the Cypherpunks list, with some sybase domain name weirdness, or reflector, going on.)
At 12:30 PM -0400 9/29/96, Ryan Russell/SYBASE wrote:
I guess that depends on your definition of liberty. The Mormons originally moved there to have a place to practice their religion, and have freedom from persecution. I suppose one could extend that to wanting a place to have the freedom to have a set of rules consistant with their beliefs. Should that include freedom from interferance from folks such as yourself who want to change their rules, even though you're not presently effected?
Well, if Utah can rig a way to _secede_ from the Union, your arguments would make more sense. But so long as they are part of these United States, their religious beliefs about when children should be at home cannot supersede basic liberties.
(There are some thorny issues about whether _minors_ have full civil rights. But I certainly know that _my_ civil rights are being affected when my children are not allowed on the streets after some hour. If my child is out, this is my problem. I neither want cops to stop-and-detain my children, nor do I want my tax monies to be used to control the behavior of other people's children. Providing no crimes are being committed, curfews for the sake of controlling the behavior of children are no more just than would be a bunch of related behavior control laws, e.g., a ban on comic books, a mandate that all children join after-school youth leagues, etc.)
As for "changing their rules," you're missing the point. There are presumably many in Utah who believe as I do (maybe even some Mormons). Those who are living in Utah, as renters, owners, whatever, should not be bound by unconstitutional rules, no matter how many Mormon Elders favor them. Unless the Mormons own _all_ of the property (and maybe not even then, as renters have civil rights), they cannot impose their own notions of morality on the rest of the population, except in compelling cases (e.g., involving the well-known actual _crimes_).
I don't mean to pick on Mormons, as other communities have also attempted to impose curfews and other restricitions on the children of others. My ire was raised by Attila's enthusiastic support for laws which no freedom-loving person should be enthusiastic about. Again, I have no problem with Attila restricting his own children's movements, or joining with other parents to control the behavior of their _own_ children, via religious camps, religious schools, youth leagues, etc. He can even make his own kids wear funny uniforms, funny religious hats, whatever.
But, for example, tellling _me_ when _my_ children may be out on public streets (doing nothing illegal, neither robbing nor spray-painting nor committing any other real crimes) is unacceptable.
I urge Attila (and others) to rethink enthusiastic support for curfews.
--Tim May
We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^1,257,787-1 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
On the below: Gentiles (and Jews) are *very* afraid of Mormons. Maybe it has something to do with the World's Largest Database (on non-Mormons especially) they keep under that mountain near SLC Utah. Moroni wrote:
I never cease to be surprised by the interest that gentiles show in working mormon communities while totally neglecting their own failing areas.
On Sun, 29 Sep 1996, Timothy C. May wrote:
(I received this message, with "cypherpunks@sybase.com" as well as "tcmay@sybase.com" (???) cc:ed, so I assume this message was intended for the Cypherpunks list, with some sybase domain name weirdness, or reflector, going on.)
At 12:30 PM -0400 9/29/96, Ryan Russell/SYBASE wrote:
I guess that depends on your definition of liberty. The Mormons originally moved there to have a place to practice their religion, and have freedom from persecution. I suppose one could extend that to wanting a place to have the freedom to have a set of rules consistant with their beliefs. Should that include freedom from interferance from folks such as yourself who want to change their rules, even though you're not presently effected?
Well, if Utah can rig a way to _secede_ from the Union, your arguments would make more sense. But so long as they are part of these United States, their religious beliefs about when children should be at home cannot supersede basic liberties.
[additional text deleted]
Dale I wouldn't worry about the mountain and what is under it. It is only genealogical stuff. Salt lake has to wait 100 years or 99 (i Forget) in order to be able to make the records public. The SSA makes death info available as soon as the body is cold. And that is on cd rom. Most banks have contingency plans for having intact records in case of nuclear or civil disturbance. Again it is under the mountains . As for costs ,the full amount of the custodial costs are born by members. Originally it was by donations of money and I think now it is taken from the tithe. That is a sum in excess of 1 billion dollars by the members. On Mon, 30 Sep 1996, Dale Thorn wrote:
On the below: Gentiles (and Jews) are *very* afraid of Mormons. Maybe it has something to do with the World's Largest Database (on non-Mormons especially) they keep under that mountain near SLC Utah.
Moroni wrote:
I never cease to be surprised by the interest that gentiles show in working mormon communities while totally neglecting their own failing areas.
On Sun, 29 Sep 1996, Timothy C. May wrote:
(I received this message, with "cypherpunks@sybase.com" as well as "tcmay@sybase.com" (???) cc:ed, so I assume this message was intended for the Cypherpunks list, with some sybase domain name weirdness, or reflector, going on.)
At 12:30 PM -0400 9/29/96, Ryan Russell/SYBASE wrote:
I guess that depends on your definition of liberty. The Mormons originally moved there to have a place to practice their religion, and have freedom from persecution. I suppose one could extend that to wanting a place to have the freedom to have a set of rules consistant with their beliefs. Should that include freedom from interferance from folks such as yourself who want to change their rules, even though you're not presently effected?
Well, if Utah can rig a way to _secede_ from the Union, your arguments would make more sense. But so long as they are part of these United States, their religious beliefs about when children should be at home cannot supersede basic liberties.
[additional text deleted]
The database is just for genealogical stuff and church papers. On Mon, 30 Sep 1996, Dale Thorn wrote:
On the below: Gentiles (and Jews) are *very* afraid of Mormons. Maybe it has something to do with the World's Largest Database (on non-Mormons especially) they keep under that mountain near SLC Utah.
Moroni wrote:
I never cease to be surprised by the interest that gentiles show in working mormon communities while totally neglecting their own failing areas.
On Sun, 29 Sep 1996, Timothy C. May wrote:
(I received this message, with "cypherpunks@sybase.com" as well as "tcmay@sybase.com" (???) cc:ed, so I assume this message was intended for the Cypherpunks list, with some sybase domain name weirdness, or reflector, going on.)
At 12:30 PM -0400 9/29/96, Ryan Russell/SYBASE wrote:
I guess that depends on your definition of liberty. The Mormons originally moved there to have a place to practice their religion, and have freedom from persecution. I suppose one could extend that to wanting a place to have the freedom to have a set of rules consistant with their beliefs. Should that include freedom from interferance from folks such as yourself who want to change their rules, even though you're not presently effected?
Well, if Utah can rig a way to _secede_ from the Union, your arguments would make more sense. But so long as they are part of these United States, their religious beliefs about when children should be at home cannot supersede basic liberties.
[additional text deleted]
Moroni wrote:
The database is just for genealogical stuff and church papers.
Sometimes I wonder if I came from another planet, or is everyone experiencing the same thing, i.e., I have two relatives high up in Scientology (recruiting, placement, fundraising), several in LDS, even a Pagan or two, and I'm not even from California. If the Mormon database is so innocuous, why are they so *desperate* to build it? Genealogical? If you ever rode on a train, a plane, or took a cruise, you're in it. They have everything. Or, in the vein of Hoover or Wackenhut, "you can never have enough".
On Mon, 30 Sep 1996, Dale Thorn wrote:
On the below: Gentiles (and Jews) are *very* afraid of Mormons. Maybe it has something to do with the World's Largest Database (on non-Mormons especially) they keep under that mountain near SLC Utah.
[additional text deleted]
I am sure that we all want the list returned to itself sooooo.... cannot me by email so as not to take up bandwidth from the other members please. The mountain is allready housing the genealogical duplicates of microfilm. I has actually been around a while. Their is no building it. Second , It only house genealogical stuff. Whoever is telling you otherwise is misinformed.I don't know how the tall tale of the mountain holding peoples credit record started . Why would anyone be interested in someone elses credit records unless it was a business or a credit card ring. On Tue, 1 Oct 1996, Dale Thorn wrote:
Moroni wrote:
The database is just for genealogical stuff and church papers.
Sometimes I wonder if I came from another planet, or is everyone experiencing the same thing, i.e., I have two relatives high up in Scientology (recruiting, placement, fundraising), several in LDS, even a Pagan or two, and I'm not even from California.
If the Mormon database is so innocuous, why are they so *desperate* to build it? Genealogical? If you ever rode on a train, a plane, or took a cruise, you're in it. They have everything. Or, in the vein of Hoover or Wackenhut, "you can never have enough".
On Mon, 30 Sep 1996, Dale Thorn wrote:
On the below: Gentiles (and Jews) are *very* afraid of Mormons. Maybe it has something to do with the World's Largest Database (on non-Mormons especially) they keep under that mountain near SLC Utah.
[additional text deleted]
The database is just for genealogical stuff and church papers.
"Key escrow will only allow properly authorized personal to access your keys" "We're from the government, we're here to help you". Government is Government, wether dumbocracy, or theocracy. Petro, Christopher C. petro@suba.com <prefered for any non-list stuff> snow@smoke.suba.com
participants (4)
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Dale Thorn -
Moroni -
snow -
Timothy C. May