Re: Best Cypherpunk long gun (fwd)
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Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 01:08:04 -0700 From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net> Subject: Re: Best Cypherpunk long gun (fwd)
I can't agree that the HK 91 (the .308 version) is a popular sniper weapon.
Military and police snipers the world over differ strongly with you... Beside, it's the 93/G3 not the 91 (thought they do share a lot of commen base pieces) that is the sniper rifle. I believe you will also find that the .308 is the base caliber for all versions. Your wording above would indicate the 91 was .308 while the 93 was a different caliber, this is incorrect. Visit the H&K home page...
For sniper work, a bolt-action is by far the most popular piece.
Really? Watch a few more of those silly police shows on at night. Pay particular attention to the long-term hostage episodes. I generaly see the break-in team carrying MP-5 or shortie M-16's. I have yet to see the backup or sniper team using a bolt-action. Learning base tactics is about the only thing these shows are good for.
I'm also skeptical about lasers, for daylight use. The three lasers I have owned have been good for indoor use, but visibility outdoors during the day is very poor.
I only use them for long-range shots and it does require the scope to see the spot - the whole point really. The idea is the beam is of very low power at this point and doesn't stand out quite as bad as up close (the glowing red dot).
(IR lasers with IR night vision gear is another matter, but also another price matter, too.)
Bad news, the others guys IR/IIS will spot you in a heart-beat, never use a laser at nite, it's like tracers - they work both ways. You want to stick with a strictly 3rd generation passive IR/IIS. Remember, we're counter-sniping at this point... ____________________________________________________________________ | | | Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make | | violent revolution inevitable. | | | | John F. Kennedy | | | | | | _____ The Armadillo Group | | ,::////;::-. Austin, Tx. USA | | /:'///// ``::>/|/ http://www.ssz.com/ | | .', |||| `/( e\ | | -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- Jim Choate | | ravage@ssz.com | | 512-451-7087 | |____________________________________________________________________|
At 8:51 AM -0700 12/23/97, Jim Choate wrote:
Forwarded message:
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 01:08:04 -0700 From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net> Subject: Re: Best Cypherpunk long gun (fwd)
I can't agree that the HK 91 (the .308 version) is a popular sniper weapon.
Military and police snipers the world over differ strongly with you... Beside, it's the 93/G3 not the 91 (thought they do share a lot of commen base pieces) that is the sniper rifle. I believe you will also find that the .308 is the base caliber for all versions. Your wording above would indicate the 91 was .308 while the 93 was a different caliber, this is incorrect. Visit the H&K home page...
Not much point in arguing with Jim Choate on this one. The G3 is the orginal name (Gewehr). The G3KA4 is one of the .308 models currentlt being sold. For the past couple of decades the naming system has also included "HK -9x" names, with this breakdown by caliber: HK-91, the .308 model, aka the G3-xx models. Also, the variants like the SAR-9 from Springfield, the Argentine and Greek versions, etc. HK-93, the .223 model, much less common than the HK-91. HK-94, 9mm model (which becomes the MP-5 and all of its variants and the SP-89 as changes are made to the barrel length, stock configuration, etc. (I know these things quite well, having almost bought an HK-91 back before they came under new restrictions, and then having bought an SP-89.) But if Jim doesn't believe me, consider this quote from the rec.guns FAQ: "The HK series of weapons commonly avaiable in the US consists of the HK-91 (7.62 Nato) HK-93 (5.56 Nato) and HK-94 (9mm Nato). All these rifles share common features, namely, the locking system consists of a roller locked inertial bolt, which operates as a delayed direct blow back action."
For sniper work, a bolt-action is by far the most popular piece.
Really? Watch a few more of those silly police shows on at night. Pay particular attention to the long-term hostage episodes. I generaly see the break-in team carrying MP-5 or shortie M-16's. I have yet to see the backup or sniper team using a bolt-action. Learning base tactics is about the only thing these shows are good for.
Getting one's knowledge from, as you say, silly police shows, is not such a good idea. For one thing, _entry teams_ are NOT snipers! Go to some actual sniping sources. Or try some of the Web pages, such as http://www.prostar.com/web/sniper/ or http://sniper-store.com/ for insights. Also, as I mentioned John Plaster's excellent 1993 book, "The Ultimate Sniper." He discusses semiautomatics and their disadvantages in price and simplicity compared to bolt-actions. Again, entry team work is limited to close range. Sniping is quite different, with ranges from a hundred yards on up to a thousand yards, sometimes even more. The average police sniper takes his shot at a hundred yards or less (less is always better). But he'll want the most accurate piece, not a semi-auto. Lon Horiuchi, the sniper at Ruby Ridge, used a bolt-action to take his shot.
Remember, we're counter-sniping at this point...
This'll be my last response to Jim on this issue. It appears he's talking about a completely different thing than what I am calling, and what is commonly called by others, sniping. --Tim May The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^2,976,221 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
On Tue, 23 Dec 1997, Jim Choate wrote:
Forwarded message:
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 01:08:04 -0700 From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net> Subject: Re: Best Cypherpunk long gun (fwd)
For sniper work, a bolt-action is by far the most popular piece.
It's difficult and expensive to build semi-autos that lock as well as a bolt action. As Tim pointed out earlier, for this type of shooting, sight-picture recovery generally outweighs the time it takes to operate the action, anyway. Also - if you are talking about counter-sniper work, the less shots you take, the less a target you make of yourself; taking between 0 and 1 shot is the recommended approach. :)
Really? Watch a few more of those silly police shows on at night. Pay particular attention to the long-term hostage episodes. I generaly see the break-in team carrying MP-5 or shortie M-16's. I have yet to see the backup or sniper team using a bolt-action. Learning base tactics is about the only thing these shows are good for.
If you can see the sniper, he's not doing his job very well. You seem to be confusing the "cover men" trailing the entry team with "snipers." Since "most" LEA SWAT units operate in urban areas, their snipers are probably within 100 yards of the target. An AR-15 easily accurate enough at that range (even without a scope, although 4x-6x works well at that range). Most would likely use a bolt-action, though. Most of the higher-end bolt-actions will shoot tighter than the average user can hold them (without resorting to sandbags and a lot of time to set up their shot). Sorry for following the off-topic thread. I was going to throw in some ascii art, but I gotta go mix up some rum punch and stir the C4, or vice- versa. Happy Holy-Daze. -r.w. p.s: William Craig's "Enemy at the Gates" has some interesting accounts of sniper/counter sniper action in and around Stalingrad during WWII. Much of the naritive is based on Zaitsev's "notes of a sniper" and interviews with Tania Chernova.
Rabid Wombat <wombat@mcfeely.bsfs.org> writes:
Sorry for following the off-topic thread. I was going to throw in some ascii art, but I gotta go mix up some rum punch and stir the C4, or vice- versa.
Here's a christmas card for all the gun nuts on this list... """"""" |"""""" _________ O C"" //-------\\ /_ \ L______________||O-----------------\ |____/_\ / -----------------||||| =========== /\ ____\ v|\ OOOO-L______________ / --____||||___\< |||| (|-- | ---- ----. " _} "@ > |\ 7 / `-- _ ,-------,**** ~ >o< \---------o{___}- / | \ / ________/8' | | / " | / | ___________ || o > =====| === \ ~Y/ =====-__|~==\| U > === BULLET> / |L)~~~ \ ___ > ===== / === } |_| BAM! \_____/ \ _ / \ |#| / \ |#| / \ @#####@ ______ __ __ (### ###)-. .(### ###) \ --- / / (### ###) ) _____ / (=- .@#####@|_--" / /\ \_|l|_/ (\ / (=-\ |l| / \ / \ \.___|l|___/ \ /\ |_| / (=-\._________/\ \ / \.__________/ # # # # \#######/ That's all I got... Sorry it ain't as good as the Timmy pictures.
participants (4)
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dlv＠bwalk.dm.com -
Jim Choate -
Rabid Wombat -
Tim May