At 3:38 AM 8/5/96, Sean Sutherland wrote:

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Hallam-Baker Wrote --

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Date: Sun, 04 Aug 1996 20:20:20 -0400

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I personally think that tagants is an insuffieicent approach to the problem. Given the number of gun related homicides in the US it is not unreasonable to require each individual cartridge to be stamped with a serial number and for gun dealers to be required to record each individual purchase. That at least was my advice to the UK govt after Dunblane.

There's four major problems with this. First off, a large number of

Actually, there are so many problems with this that I dismissed Phill's "plan" out of hand. But since others are weighing in on it, I might as well, too. It has little CP relevance, except that it parallels other seemingly well though-out proposals which crumble when some common sense analysis is used. The key point is this: A billion rounds of ammunition already out in the U.S. + Perps typically fire fewer than 5 rounds in committing their crimes + Incredible logistical problems in tagging and tracking shells = An idea shot down.

guns used in homicides are revolvers or derringers (anyone got the numbers?). These guns don't spit out the shells. So, it would be

Most older guns in the hands of street punks are revolvers, though this is not necessarily where handgun homicides mostly come from. Those are "home shootings"--a man kills his wife, a woman kills her husband, a brother shoots a brother, etc. Most of these are done with guns that are handy and that have been in the family/house for a long time....most are, thus, revolvers. (The 1911 .45 is moderately common, but not nearly so much so as old .38s and even .22s.) In any case, Phill's proposal would collapse for this situation. First, the guns are very old and the ammo would not be the new "tagged cases." (In most cases, a old "box of shells." Most home owners of guns never fire practice rounds and tend to have a few boxes at most of shells, which they keep for many, many years.) And in most home killings, it becomes clear real fast who did the shooting. And, as Sean notes, these revolvers will not eject the shells. It is marginally possible that spent shells could be identified when fired from semi-automatics, of course. Other factors to consider, though: 1. The vast amount of ammo already out there. Given that perps typically fire only a handful in their criminal career, not hard to just use older ammo. (The Sternlight-favored argument might be invoked here: "Ah, but criminals are too stupid to do this, and so it will help." I disagree. Most street punks would understand the principal. Just as they seek out "clean" guns, they surely would not load their carry guns with 9mm ammo bought and "registered" under their own names. 2. Target shooters consume the vast majority of rounds. (This is why foolish proposals by Moynihan to "force" ammo to be sold for, say, $5 a round, is ineffectual for the intended purpose: the perp loading his .357 or 9mm will hardly be deterred by a $30 price, even assuming he would buy in a store at these prices.) (Think of the black market supply: my several thousand rounds of 9mm, .45, .223, etc., would be worth $15,000 or more at "Moynihan prices. The Feds could try to outlaw all ammo transfers between individuals...left as an exercise as to how effective this could ever be, and whether juries would send people off to the pen for the crime of selling some .45 shells.) 3. Reloaders. As others have noted, there is an essentially inexhaustible supply of reloaded shells. 4. The vast amound of ammo already out there. Crates and crates and crates of surplus ammo in all sorts of calibers, entire container ships of ammo coming to the U.S. (e.g, I just got my UPS delivery of 850 rounds of a Czech brand, Sellior and Bellot, and my 1000 rounds of Italian Fiocchi are due any day...multiply this by 100,000. 5. Stockpiling. Don't forget the "law of unintended consequences." The biggest gun boom in history came when the Feds cracked down on gun purchases. California gun stores were crowded for months. (Ditto for high-capacity magazines: in the months of "warning" that people had, factories cranked up production, customers stockpiled, and there was a sudden surge of interest in getting that previously-obscure 3-round mag for one's Glocks! :-})

utterly useless to do so. The second problem is the number of shells expelled in the US every day. I doubt there's enough room on the butt end of a shell to print that number (it couldn't be printed on the sides, as this would screw up the fit of the shell, and possibly weaken it). And, it'd be almost impossible getting gun manufacturers to

6. There isn't enough room. The shell I have in my hand barely has enough room to print "FEDERAL 45 AUTO". A unique numbering of the total ammo sales, even by boxes and not individual cases, would need a 9-12 characters (and would likely run out in a few year--12-14 characters would be needed). Actually, this is the "most solvable" of the problems...the others are the real killers.

pay for the equiptment that it would take to emprint serial numbers. The third number is that cartridges

are recycled. Aside from reloading your own, there's a large number of people that sweep up brass from gun ranges to reload themselves.

The idea that someone swept up the brass could get almost anyone off.

7. There's this...and there's the possibility that one could implicate _others_. For example, pick up a few empty shells at the range. I imagine there might be some souvenir value in buying a "This shell was fired by Dianne Feinstein." (For the uniniated, at the same time DiFi was railing against the public's ownership of guns, she was carrying one in her purse.) This gets back to the "chain of evidence" point we so often mention.

The final problem is the paperwork. Cops today can barly keep up with the paperwork involved with the Brady Bill. Could you imagine if they had to keep track of AMMO purchases?

8. Indeed, it would inflate ammo prices too much. (Given that people like me have thousands of rounds, the ability to reload, and would be happy to undercut the local K-Mart's price.)

The NRA, I'm sorry to say, has screwed up royally. It's about time that they regroup, or else they fall.

Indeed, I refused to renew my membership because of their wishy-washyness on basic issues. In my opinion, spending the "Life Member" fees on a Dillon reloading press is a better investment. --Tim May HOW TO MAKE A PIPE BOMB: "Buy a section of metal water pipe 1/2 by 6 inches long, threaded on both ends. Buy two metal caps to fit. These are standard items in hardware stores. Drill a 1/16th hole in the center of the pipe. This is easy with a good drill bit. Hanson is a good brand to use. Screw a metal cap tightly on one end. Fill the pipe to within 1/2 inch of the top with black powder. Do not pack the powder. Don't even tap the bottom of the pipe to make it settle. You want the powder loose. For maximum explosive effect, you need dry, fine powder sitting loose in a very rigid container." (more information at http://sdcc13.ucsd.edu/~m1lopez/pipe.html, or by using search engines)