My citizenship renunciation made difficult
My Barbados Embassy/Consulate contact Steve Steger (246) 228 4338 called me up and told me that the state department has not approved my renunciation - they say one of the forms the Barbados guys had me fill out is old. For those just tuning in, I renounced my citizenship to be free of US laws on cryptography. While I was at the Consulate they had me fill out a 1st set of forms, then said those were obsolete (a few years back) and after waiting around for hours they had me fill out a 2nd set of forms that they said was the current version. I filled out and signed everything they gave me. They then had an interview with several witnesses. They took my US passport and gave me copies of the 2nd version of all the forms with my signatures and theirs on them. Now Steve says that I am supposed to travel down to Barbados again using up my time and my money because of their error to do a 3rd version of their forms. Both the time and the money make this a hardship. They won't mail me this 3rd version of the forms and they won't pay for my trip (let alone time). It seems to me that since I told the New York times that I renounced my US citizenship, and they told the world, that it should be a done deal. Also, spending a day in the Consulate signing everything they gave me should be enough to do it. And why is a form saying basically "I renounce my citizenship" that worked awhile back not effective today? But most of all, the very idea that the US government has to give me permission to renounce my association with it seems totally wrong. The people in the US are supposed to be free, not slaves or subjects. Free means free to leave. Any advice? -- Vince ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Vincent Cate Offshore Information Services Vince@Offshore.com.ai http://www.offshore.com.ai/ Anguilla, BWI http://www.offshore.com.ai/vince ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ You have to take life as it happens, but you should try to make it happen the way you want to take it. - German Proverb
From Vince Cate:
: But most of all, the very idea that the US government has to give me : permission to renounce my association with it seems totally : wrong. The people in the US are supposed to be free, not slaves or : subjects. Free means free to leave. ....................................................... That was a long time ago, Vince. People don't think that way any more. Government clerks have taken over the world. No one is their own person any more; we belong to the National Identity. But anything which goes wrong is totally your fault. You should have known those forms were obsolete. Do they have to tell you everything? (do they have to tell you *anything*?) I would advise them that if they want more information from you, to come and get it. I would advise them to copy the information from the old form. I would advise them to call you on the phone and inquire over any missing information to satisfy their need for it. I would advise your new leaders in Mozambique to harrass the US clerks and threaten them with something. I would advise the New York Times about this bit of inanity. I would ask the clerks what they're going to do about it if you don't fill out a new form (take a boat trip over and dock you?) I would ask the Mozambique govmt whether they care, and if they would cooperate with the US if it staked a claim on your body (and your tax contributions). I would post this somewhere on the internet where many people would read it and talk about it, not only to let them know how things work, but also to alert cyberspace about yet another flaw in government operations and in the US legal atmosphere. All very useful ideas. : | .. Blanc
Blanc, Sometimes the best advice is to play the game, get what you want and let well enough alone. The fact that they may choose to do nothing does not mean that bucking the United States of America is a good idea. Follow the administrative procedures, leave your anger at home and if you want to change the way things are, work to be a good example of why libertarian values are morally correct. Eric S
From Eric S:
: Sometimes the best advice is to play the game, get what : you want and let well enough alone. The fact that they may choose to do : nothing does not mean that bucking the United States of America is a good idea. : Follow the administrative procedures, leave your anger at home and if : you want to change the way things are, work to be a good : example of why libertarian values are morally correct. .............................................. Eric, I appreciate your concern for my safety. <g> But if playing the game was the right way to do things, the 'cypherpunks' would not exist, PGP would not have been created or distributed, John Gilmore would not have constructed his DES cracker, and Vince would not have left the country, or now be trying to change citizenship. I realize that Vince was looking for more practical advice than I offered; I didn't really expect him to take those ideas seriously (and I suspect some of these also crossed his mind). Bucking the US govmt directly may not appear to be the best idea, but it depends on one's circumstance: a person should do what they feel is possible and agreeable to them in dealing with nonsense, whether it is filling out and signing forms of defection, or stocking up on guns and bullets the way Tim May does. In any case, being a good example of why libertarian values are morally correct is not something I would ever do. Individuals have a mind of their own, and I expect them to use it, to decide for themselves which values they will support. I feel no obligation to present demos, no vested interest in converting anyone to any side of an issue. I will argue for reason and facts and reality, but I would leave an individual to face the consequences of their own choices. What I am motivated to do, is object to having to take the consequences of somebody *else's* choices. (And Soren: integrity and morality are not incompatible; in fact, they co-exist and where one is reduced, the other is also diminished). .. Blanc
I believe that the UN Universal Declaration of Human rights includes the right to emmigrate without undue hardship. I would suggest contacting Amnesty International to complain about this harrassment by the US government. Article 13, section 2, article 15, section 2. http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html On Mon, Oct 19, 1998 at 10:17:12PM -0400, Vincent Cate wrote: | | My Barbados Embassy/Consulate contact Steve Steger (246) 228 4338 called | me up and told me that the state department has not approved my | renunciation - they say one of the forms the Barbados guys had me fill out | is old. | | For those just tuning in, I renounced my citizenship to be free of US laws | on cryptography. | | While I was at the Consulate they had me fill out a 1st set of forms, then | said those were obsolete (a few years back) and after waiting around for | hours they had me fill out a 2nd set of forms that they said was the | current version. I filled out and signed everything they gave me. They | then had an interview with several witnesses. They took my US passport | and gave me copies of the 2nd version of all the forms with my signatures | and theirs on them. | | Now Steve says that I am supposed to travel down to Barbados again using | up my time and my money because of their error to do a 3rd version of | their forms. Both the time and the money make this a hardship. They won't | mail me this 3rd version of the forms and they won't pay for my trip (let | alone time). | | It seems to me that since I told the New York times that I renounced my US | citizenship, and they told the world, that it should be a done deal. Also, | spending a day in the Consulate signing everything they gave me should be | enough to do it. And why is a form saying basically "I renounce my | citizenship" that worked awhile back not effective today? | | But most of all, the very idea that the US government has to give me | permission to renounce my association with it seems totally wrong. The | people in the US are supposed to be free, not slaves or subjects. Free | means free to leave. | | Any advice? | | -- Vince | | ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ | Vincent Cate Offshore Information Services | Vince@Offshore.com.ai http://www.offshore.com.ai/ | Anguilla, BWI http://www.offshore.com.ai/vince | ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ | | You have to take life as it happens, but you should try to make it | happen the way you want to take it. - German Proverb | | -- "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -Hume
On Tue, 20 Oct 1998, Adam Shostack wrote:
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 09:19:47 -0400 From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org> To: Vincent Cate <vince@offshore.com.ai>, cypherpunks@cyberpass.net Subject: Re: My citizenship renunciation made difficult
I believe that the UN Universal Declaration of Human rights includes the right to emmigrate without undue hardship. I would suggest contacting Amnesty International to complain about this harrassment by the US government.
Article 13, section 2, article 15, section 2.
My experience is that the US refers to the UN treaty when it wants to expand its powers over us. When it comes to protecting our rights, they probably blithefully ignore it. Try applying many of those human rights protections to the ChiComs and see what happens. jim
participants (6)
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Adam Shostack -
Blanc -
Eric Seggebruch - NYC SE -
Jim Burnes - Denver -
Soren -
Vincent Cate