RE: Warrantless searches- sorry to bring this back....
Anyway, the point is, these people aren't safe in their own homes. The
keep their children home from school because they are afraid that they will either get shot (which happens quite a lot, one child was shot by a "gangsta" with a sniper rifle while his mother was walking him to school- the kid was about 5 years old) or that the kids will get involved in the gangs.
For a while, the Chicago PD were unwilling to enter the buildings until after
Sorry this reply has taken so long..... My comments are below. -------------- Date: Sun, 17 Apr 1994 16:48:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Llywelyn <samman@CS.YALE.EDU> Subject: RE: Warrantless searches -- A sign of things to come? To: cypherpunks@toad.com Cc: mrami@MINERVA.CIS.YALE.EDU Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com Adam writes: parents the
shooting had stopped, and would then go in to tag and bag the bodies. IT WAS BAD!!!
Ok, now let me get this straight. The police who are supposed to 'serve and protect' weren't willing to go in there to protect their constituents because it was too dangerous, but in the same breath they want to remove these people's ability to protect themselves. Just wanted to make sure. Ben. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- The cops aren't unwilling to go in there, it's just not safe. Period. Think about it. The cops have a .38 or a 9mm if they are lucky. Some of them may even have bullet-proof vests to wear. Some of the smarter cops have been able to find two bp vests to wear on patrol. So, they're cruising along, when a call goes out. One of the CHA buildings has a sniper on the roof. If they go anywhere near that building, he'll take they're heads right off. Or maybe the call is to make a bust on some drug-dealer. The dealers usually have someone listening to the police frequencies on a scanner, so that when the cops show up, they'll have a big surprise waiting. In the form of assualt shotguns, semi- and fully-automatic machine guns (the Mac-10 and Uzi are quite popular with druggies and gang's these days). And what kind of bullets are the bad guys using? Not what the cops get to use. Oh-no! The baddies have the "Cop-Killer" bullets: armor piercing, Teflon coated bullets that two bp vests WILL NOT stop. Alternatively, the baddies could just pump the cop car full of lead. After all, a cop won't do much if he's busy bleeding to death from his knees, or if some "gangsta" shot his foot off. Think about it. The cops are out-gunned and out-manned. What would you do? And don't tell me that you would just go in there. I consider myself pretty brave, but I don't think even for a second that I would be able to even consider going in there, not without a nice, warm, cozy M1 Abrams Tank surrounding me. And even then I wouldn't be truly safe. These cops are doing the best that they can, and everyone in the U.S. are worrying more about the "rights" of these gang-bangers and drug-dealers than they are about the rights of the innocent people that are trapped in these buildings. And don't even start to tell me that the "innocents" can just leave, cos these CHA buildings are the only place they can afford to live. You folks are to busy yelling about the illegal searches to even think of coming up with an alternative. Maybe if you spent a little time thinking about what it's like to live in a place like this, you might shut up about the cops not doing their jobs. Adam Gerstein ------ Comments to GERSTEIN@SCSU.CTSTATEU.EDU Flames to /dev/null FIGHT CLIPPER -=- OPPOSE CLIPPER -=- FIGHT CLIPPER -=- OPPOSE CLIPPER -=-
On Sun, 24 Apr 1994 GERSTEIN@SCSUD.CTSTATEU.EDU wrote:
The cops aren't unwilling to go in there, it's just not safe. Period. Think about it. The cops have a .38 or a 9mm if they are lucky. Some of them may even have bullet-proof vests to wear. Some of the smarter cops have been able to find two bp vests to wear on patrol. So, they're cruising along, when a call goes out. One of the CHA buildings has a sniper on the roof. If they go anywhere near that building, he'll take they're heads right off. Or maybe the call is to make a bust on some drug-dealer. The dealers usually have someone listening to the police frequencies on a scanner, so that when the cops show up, they'll have a big surprise waiting. In the form of assualt shotguns, semi- and fully-automatic machine guns (the Mac-10 and Uzi are quite popular with druggies and gang's these days). And what kind of bullets are the bad guys using? Not what the cops get to use. Oh-no! The baddies have the "Cop-Killer" bullets: armor piercing, Teflon coated bullets that two bp vests WILL NOT stop.
I was sympathetic to your argument up to this point. Now I need a polite way to say "You haven't a clue as to what you're talking about.". These magic, vest-penetrating, Teflon coated bullets are on of the gun-controllers favorite myths. But they don't exist in this reality. That's not to say the cops don't have a problem. Pretty much any rifle will penetrate a standard vest. But then, very few of the druggies in real life have rifles.
Alternatively, the baddies could just pump the cop car full of lead. After all, a cop won't do much if he's busy bleeding to death from his knees, or if some "gangsta" shot his foot off.
Think about it. The cops are out-gunned and out-manned. What would you do? And don't tell me that you would just go in there. I consider myself pretty brave, but I don't think even for a second that I would be able to even consider going in there, not without a nice, warm, cozy M1 Abrams Tank surrounding me. And even then I wouldn't be truly safe. These cops are doing the best that they can, and everyone in the U.S. are worrying more about the "rights" of these gang-bangers and drug-dealers than they are about the rights of the innocent people that are trapped in these buildings. And don't even start to tell me that the "innocents" can just leave, cos these CHA buildings are the only place they can afford to live. You folks are to busy yelling about the illegal searches to even think of coming up with an alternative.
Maybe if you spent a little time thinking about what it's like to live in a place like this, you might shut up about the cops not doing their jobs.
Adam Gerstein
------ Comments to GERSTEIN@SCSU.CTSTATEU.EDU Flames to /dev/null
FIGHT CLIPPER -=- OPPOSE CLIPPER -=- FIGHT CLIPPER -=- OPPOSE CLIPPER -=-
Reading your last few paragraphs and then you tagline causes a real cognitive dissonance. Clipper is intended to make it easier for the police to catch criminals, and I have yet to hear a serious argument that it won't do that. All of the arguments are that it infringes on the legitimate rights of non-criminals. So here you are, perfectly willing to toss out rights that ARE enumerated in the Constitution in the 2nd and 4th Amendments, yet trying to defend a much more nebulous "right to privacy" Since you've so well defended the principle that the individual's rights are subordinate to the rights of the "innocent people" to be "safe", what rational basis do you have for opposing Clipper? Sorry, the Constitution isn't a cafeteria. You can't pick and choose the rights you like and trash the rest. ++PLS
Think about it. The cops are out-gunned and out-manned. What would you do? And don't tell me that you would just go in there. I consider myself pretty brave, but I don't think even for a second that I would be able to even consider going in there, not without a nice, warm, cozy M1 Abrams Tank surrounding me. And even then I wouldn't be truly safe. These cops are doing the best that they can, and everyone in the U.S. are worrying more about the "rights" of these gang-bangers and drug-dealers than they are about the rights of the innocent people that are trapped in these buildings. And don't even start to tell me that the "innocents" can just leave, cos these CHA buildings are the only place they can afford to live. You folks are to busy yelling about the illegal searches to even think of coming up with an alternative.
Maybe if you spent a little time thinking about what it's like to live in a place like this, you might shut up about the cops not doing their jobs.
Ok, Let me respond 1)I live in this kind of neighborhood at home when I'm not at school. That's right, I live in West Oakland, California. I was born and raised in the inner city. Don't tell me how these places are, don't tell me how they're run, don't tell me how dangerous they are. I've lived it. Have you? All you know is what you see on the news, on the television shows, and what is portrayed in mass media. 2)I know the value of a gun in this environment. I know how many times our home has been kept safe because my father has been willing to wield a gun against either intruders or against 'undersireable' characters coming around(read drug dealers, crack heads, you name it). Our part of the block has a reputation for not being somewhere for these pepole to hang out because my father and our neighbors have taken a stand against such scum. 3)Not everyone who lives in these neighborhoods is bad simply as a result of their economic conditions. We don't want these people around any more than you people do in your neighborhoods. It just happens, and I know this for a fact, that it takes Oakland Police(OPD) a lot longer to respond when we call them, than when people in Skyline(a rich white neighborhood) call them. 4)My family has not broken any law simply by trying to protect ourselves. There is no way in hell that the police can be everywhere at once, even if they are as efficient as you in the 'burbs seem to think they are, keeping out and harassing all the minorties that come your way. Until they get there, the only way we can protect ourselves is with our guns. We havne't broken any laws, we're not the ones who have severed our contract with society by choosing to live outside of it, its not us, its the people who prey upon us in our homes and in our schools, and it is not us who should lose our rights, but them. By simply lumping us in with them by sheer virtue of where we live and how much we earn is not only sheer folly but is also classist. 5)Yes we worry about the rights of the accused. I do. I've been arrested and harassed when the only crime that I committed was being in the wrong place at the wrong time, and not having the right skin color. Yes, I worry about those rights, because for me, it might be that one day, that it is I who is on trial, it is I whose rights are being questioned, and it is I who wants my day in court, and unless we protect the rights of the accused, even if they don't look like us, it reaps a beneficial result to society as a whole. Thomas More in the movie _Man for All Seasons_ makes an excellent point when he asks young Will, if he would cut down all the laws in England to catch the devil. When Will responds in the affirmative, More asks him, "And what would you do when the winds rage about you?" You see, if you don't protect the rights of the accused today, there might come a day when you're in their shoes and you'll wish that you still had those rights--remember the 5th amendment? The 4th's prohibitions against unreasonable seach and siezures? What about the 14th's due process clause? It is the rule of law, not of decree that makes this nation great, and there's no way in hell, I'm going to sit idly by and watch this nation become an autocracy simply because some people in suburbia decided that it would be easier to do away with the rights of the accused in their racist, xenophobic fears. Any comments? Ben.
Think about it. The cops are out-gunned and out-manned. What would you of coming up with an alternative.
[snip]
Maybe if you spent a little time thinking about what it's like to live in a place like this, you might shut up about the cops not doing their jobs.
Ok, Let me respond
1)I live in this kind of neighborhood at home when I'm not at school. That's right, I live in West Oakland, California. I was born and raised in the inner city. Don't tell me how these places are, don't tell me how they're run, don't tell me how dangerous they are. I've lived it. Have you? All you know is what you see on the news, on the television shows, and what is portrayed in mass media. [excellent points all] 2)I know the value of a gun in this environment. I know how many times our home has been kept safe because my father has been willing to wield a gun against either intruders or against 'undersireable' characters coming around(read drug dealers, crack heads, you name it). Our part of the block has a reputation for not being somewhere for these pepole to hang out because my father and our neighbors have taken a stand against such scum.
[Bravo! Would that more people took personal responsibility!]
3)Not everyone who lives in these neighborhoods is bad simply as a result of
[snip...with regret]
4)My family has not broken any law simply by trying to protect ourselves. There is no way in hell that the police can be everywhere at once, even if they are as efficient as you in the 'burbs seem to think they are, keeping out and harassing all the minorties that come your way. Until they get there, the only way we can protect ourselves is with our guns. We havne't broken any laws, we're not the ones who have severed our contract with society by choosing to live outside of it, its not us, its the people who prey upon us in our homes and in our schools, and it is not us who should lose our rights, but them. By simply lumping us in with them by sheer virtue of where we live and how much we earn is not only sheer folly but is also classist.
[And, even in the finest 'burbs, the police cannot be everywhere! Indeed, if you study police doctrine, it very clearly states that police and DETER crime, they can APPREHEND criminals, but they cannot PREVENT crime. Even a 5 minute response time will not solve the problem. Indeed, a 1 minute response would not...because someone must call them first! Still more significantly, the criminals are not stupid. They go where the money is...and if it is easier to steal Rolex's and 'Benzs in Suburbia...guess where they'll go? The city manager (!) here in San Antonio found this out when he was robbed in the driveway of his house. <no, he doesn't live in the inner city. >]
5)Yes we worry about the rights of the accused. I do. I've been arrested and harassed when the only crime that I committed was being in the wrong place at the wrong time, and not having the right skin color. Yes, I worry about those rights, because for me, it might be that one day, that it is I who is on trial, it is I whose rights are being questioned, and it is I who wants my day in court, and unless we protect the rights of the accused, even if they don't look like us, it reaps a beneficial result to society as a whole. Thomas More in the movie _Man for All Seasons_ makes an excellent point when he asks young Will, if he would cut down all the laws in England to catch the devil. When Will responds in the affirmative, More asks him, "And what would you do when the winds rage about you?"
[Elegant! My apologies for the bandwidth, but this quote needs to be repeated daily by the administration <and every citizen too>]
You see, if you don't protect the rights of the accused today, there might come a day when you're in their shoes and you'll wish that you still had those rights--remember the 5th amendment? The 4th's prohibitions against unreasonable seach and siezures? What about the 14th's due process clause? It is the rule of law, not of decree that makes this nation great, and there's no way in hell, I'm going to sit idly by and watch this nation become an autocracy simply because some people in suburbia decided that it would be easier to do away with the rights of the accused in their racist, xenophobic fears.
Any comments? Ben.
[I'm as xenophobic as the next guy ;-), but I don't think the problem is necessarily suburbia; rather, it often seems that people in general, and irregardless of socioeconomic status, are eagerly discarding rights in order to escape personal involvement. Merely voting is (seemingly) too tedious; and anything more demanding is (again, seemingly) completely out of the question. Who was it who said "He who would trade a little liberty for a little security deserves neither"?]
participants (4)
-
dwomack＠runner.utsa.edu -
GERSTEIN＠SCSUD.CTSTATEU.EDU -
Llywelyn -
Paul Schauble