Anguilla Cypherpunks Meeting
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- ANGUILLA CYPHERPUNKS MEETING The meeting will be held at my house, Sunday Oct 29. My address is "Old Ta". Really, we have only a couple named streets in this country and no street signs or addresses. My area is called "Old Ta" because the Old Water Tower was near me. :-) If you don't know where I live you are probably off-island, and I can just pick you up at the airport. You are welcome to stay the week around the meeting (like Oct 25 to Nov 1 or some such). Anguilla is a fantastic little country in the Caribbean with wonderful beaches and no taxes. I have been living here for almost a year now and just love it. Right now American Airlines has some specials on that make flying to Anguilla a bit cheaper than normal. For example: New York to Anguilla $365.95 rt San Jose to Anguilla $574.95 rt For these prices the tickets must be purchase by Oct 16th. Please let me know if you are coming so I will be sure to have enough space. If we get too many people we may need some airmattresses or something. It is warm here, so sleeping bags are not needed. If while you are outside the USA you want to write some software that uses encryption and sell it worldwide, let me know. I could put you up while you wrote it and my company could sell it for share of the selling price. Let me know what you are thinking of and how long you think it would take. -- Vince -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.i iQCVAgUBMH0ZDsh6X5WuK8MNAQFqZAP+IF9OvHRsCFuRVGxH3q9jSC8Hh5rxvv9C Z6xD52PdxADM5RLxOwiuhWITStbpNL9R4T+v+mu6VnjPgifnORrS7mEM4tsmWTLT 9LJ9R4p8Q51hjXy889AOcB6Tl0rmkXouRklzYKeq/m0PnL2smt6WDF3owgq65c73 4/odioz0Oic= =6pbC -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On Thu, 12 Oct 1995, Vincent Cate wrote: [..]
If while you are outside the USA you want to write some software that uses encryption and sell it worldwide, let me know. I could put you up while you wrote it and my company could sell it for share of the selling price. Let me know what you are thinking of and how long you think it would take.
Of course if you are a US person (citizen or green card holder) this is just as much a violation of the ITAR than if you did it from inside the US... A. Michael Froomkin | +1 (305) 284-4285; +1 (305) 284-6506 (fax) Associate Professor of Law | U. Miami School of Law | froomkin@law.miami.edu P.O. Box 248087 | http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin Coral Gables, FL 33124 USA | New address, but it's still just as hot here.
On Fri, 13 Oct 1995, Michael Froomkin wrote:
On Thu, 12 Oct 1995, Vincent Cate wrote:
If while you are outside the USA you want to write some software that uses encryption and sell it worldwide, let me know. I could put you up while you wrote it and my company could sell it for share of the selling price. Let me know what you are thinking of and how long you think it would take.
Of course if you are a US person (citizen or green card holder) this is just as much a violation of the ITAR than if you did it from inside the US...
A. Michael Froomkin | +1 (305) 284-4285; +1 (305) 284-6506 (fax) Associate Professor of Law |
Yes, I am still a US citizen, so far. The corporation I work for is a legal entity of Anguilla. I would not personally be selling it, the corporation would. Do you think that is ok? What if I had a couple Anguillian friends form a corporation for this purpose (buying encryption software written in Anguilla and selling it internationally)? No trouble yet, right? What if the people who come and write it are US citizens? I don't see how US law can cover corporations in other countries. PS - it is good to CC me (as you did) as I only get cypherpunks-lite, and so may not see a message, or it may be delayed. Thanks, -- Vince
On Fri, 13 Oct 1995, Vincent Cate wrote: For your personal situation you *must* get competent legal advice. I.E. pay someone who makes it a point to stay more current in this stuff than I do. I recommend Lee Tien, for example, or Ken Bass. I bet Lee is less expensive :>. This note is NOT legal advice, and may not be competent since it is research-free. It would not be wise to make any important decisions on the basis of this note. As a general matter, however, if you are a US person and give crypto to a foreign person (be it a real person or a corporation), then as a technical legal matter you are in violation of the ITAR. US law doesn't ordinarily cover non-us corporations abroad (but see some anti-trust and money laundering rules), but the ITAR will cover any US person (ie citizen or green card holder) who works for them or transacts with them. Off the top of my head, I don't know whether the acquisition of totally foreign-created crypto by a foreign corporation managed, owned or controlled by a US person becomes an ITAR-controlled "export" when that crypto is sold to a non-us person. I would, however, want a good legal opinion before I exposed myself to the risk as I could sure make a good argument that the ITAR reached that far. All of this is without prejudice to the issue of whether the ITAR are constitutional... As for the specific fact situation you describe below, which I understand to be a little different from the one described above, I'm afraid you would have to discuss this in some detail with a lawyer; I'm sorry I can't be more help.
On Fri, 13 Oct 1995, Michael Froomkin wrote:
On Thu, 12 Oct 1995, Vincent Cate wrote:
If while you are outside the USA you want to write some software that uses encryption and sell it worldwide, let me know. I could put you up while you wrote it and my company could sell it for share of the selling price. Let me know what you are thinking of and how long you think it would take.
Of course if you are a US person (citizen or green card holder) this is just as much a violation of the ITAR than if you did it from inside the US...
Yes, I am still a US citizen, so far.
The corporation I work for is a legal entity of Anguilla. I would not personally be selling it, the corporation would. Do you think that is ok?
What if I had a couple Anguillian friends form a corporation for this purpose (buying encryption software written in Anguilla and selling it internationally)? No trouble yet, right? What if the people who come and write it are US citizens?
I don't see how US law can cover corporations in other countries.
PS - it is good to CC me (as you did) as I only get cypherpunks-lite, and so may not see a message, or it may be delayed.
A. Michael Froomkin | +1 (305) 284-4285; +1 (305) 284-6506 (fax) Associate Professor of Law | U. Miami School of Law | froomkin@law.miami.edu P.O. Box 248087 | http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin Coral Gables, FL 33124 USA | New address, but it's still just as hot here.
Vincent Cate writes:
On Fri, 13 Oct 1995, Michael Froomkin wrote:
On Thu, 12 Oct 1995, Vincent Cate wrote:
If while you are outside the USA you want to write some software that uses encryption and sell it worldwide, let me know. I could put you up while you wrote it and my company could sell it for share of the selling price. Let me know what you are thinking of and how long you think it would take.
Of course if you are a US person (citizen or green card holder) this is just as much a violation of the ITAR than if you did it from inside the US.. .
A. Michael Froomkin | +1 (305) 284-4285; +1 (305) 284-6506 (fax) Associate Professor of Law |
Yes, I am still a US citizen, so far.
The corporation I work for is a legal entity of Anguilla. I would not personally be selling it, the corporation would. Do you think that is ok?
The violation is in the *export*, not the sale. You're suggestion is that the US person developing software outside the country evades ITAR. Mr Froomkin suggests otherwise. His credentials seem sounder, but I, for one, would like to hear his reasoning. If it's true that ITAR makes such behavior illegal, then ITAR not only inhibits freedom of speech, it inhibits freedom of *thought*.
On Fri, 13 Oct 1995, Michael Froomkin wrote:
If while you are outside the USA you want to write some software that uses encryption and sell it worldwide, let me know. I could put you up while you wrote it and my company could sell it for share of the selling price. Let me know what you are thinking of and how long you think it would take.
Of course if you are a US person (citizen or green card holder) this is just as much a violation of the ITAR than if you did it from inside the US...
Really? I thought except for incomes taxes, US laws only apply in American territory as opposed to applying to American people wherever they are (as I heard Germany's does). What if you were a dual citizen (US/Canada in my case)?
On Fri, 13 Oct 1995 s1018954@aix2.uottawa.ca wrote:
Really? I thought except for incomes taxes, US laws only apply in American territory as opposed to applying to American people wherever they are (as I heard Germany's does).
The US has frequently tried to reach citizens anywhere in the world. Thus when private ownership of gold was banned in the US in the '30s, the regs outlawed possession of gold by Americans anywhere on earth. Likewise, when the Feds proposed federal licensing of space launch vehicles a few years ago, they proposed outlawing unlicensed space launches by Americans anywhere on earth. Obviously, nuclear technology was controlled so that it was illegal for Americans who had nuclear skills to work in nuclear power plants in certain countries. Such laws and regulations usually apply to US citizens (whether resident or not) and non-citizens who are US residents.
What if you were a dual citizen (US/Canada in my case)?
Dual citizens are bound by the laws of both countries. DCF
On Fri, 13 Oct 1995 s1018954@aix2.uottawa.ca wrote:
What if you were a dual citizen (US/Canada in my case)?
Get competent legal advice. I.e. don't ask me. As a general rule, I know of two principles that might be relevant here: 1) US and Canada rules on export control tend to be very similar; 2) lots of US rules apply to US persons abroad, not just income tax. See, e.g., the Trading With the Enemy Act. A. Michael Froomkin | +1 (305) 284-4285; +1 (305) 284-6506 (fax) Associate Professor of Law | U. Miami School of Law | froomkin@law.miami.edu P.O. Box 248087 | http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin Coral Gables, FL 33124 USA | New address, but it's still just as hot here.
As a Canadian, I am often astounded by the attempts of the United States government to apply American law extraterritorially. A case in point is the trade embargo with Cuba. Canada does not recognize this embargo and trades freely with Cuba. Several American corporations faced legal sanction in the U.S. for the actions of their Canadian subsiduries. I don't remember the details but can get references if anyone requires it. ITAR regulations may be enforced by the U.S. government on the parent corporations if history is any judge. In any case, these regulations are impeding standards development and the use of secure cryptography for commerce on the internet. As for key escrow and and other schemes to dilute security, no foreign company is going to use such 'bastardized' products, knowing that the U.S. government may be listening in. Especially since your president is talking about commercial spying. Regards, Tim Philp Brantford, Ontario Canada =================================== For PGP Public Key, Send E-mail to: pgp-public-keys@swissnet.ai.mit.edu In Subject line type: GET PHILP =================================== On Fri, 13 Oct 1995 s1018954@aix2.uottawa.ca wrote:
On Fri, 13 Oct 1995, Michael Froomkin wrote:
If while you are outside the USA you want to write some software that uses encryption and sell it worldwide, let me know. I could put you up while you wrote it and my company could sell it for share of the selling price. Let me know what you are thinking of and how long you think it would take.
Of course if you are a US person (citizen or green card holder) this is just as much a violation of the ITAR than if you did it from inside the US...
Really? I thought except for incomes taxes, US laws only apply in American territory as opposed to applying to American people wherever they are (as I heard Germany's does).
What if you were a dual citizen (US/Canada in my case)?
Michael Froomkin writes: : On Thu, 12 Oct 1995, Vincent Cate wrote: : [..] : : > If while you are outside the USA you want to write some software that uses : > encryption and sell it worldwide, let me know. I could put you up while : > you wrote it and my company could sell it for share of the selling price. : > Let me know what you are thinking of and how long you think it would take. : : Of course if you are a US person (citizen or green card holder) this is : just as much a violation of the ITAR than if you did it from inside the US... And of course if you are not a US person this is just as much a violation of the ITAR as if you were a US person. The ITAR does not exempt foreign persons from its requirements, though it does make them ineligible to get a license permitting them to disclose their software to other foreigners (or even to themselves). -- Peter D. Junger--Case Western Reserve University Law School--Cleveland, OH Internet: junger@pdj2-ra.f-remote.cwru.edu junger@samsara.law.cwru.edu
participants (7)
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Duncan Frissell -
Michael Froomkin -
Peter D. Junger -
s1018954＠aix2.uottawa.ca -
Scott Brickner -
Tim Philp -
Vincent Cate